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 Jung's late dream of being enveloped by huge roots 
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Post Jung's late dream of being enveloped by huge roots
In one of Jung's last reported dreams he dreamt of "tall trees growing in a square, dominated by huge fibrous roots spilling out of the ground and enveloping him, all shot through with golden threads. Lying to the right side of this square were many large pottery vessels and vases" (Deirdre Bair: Jung, p.622).

My spontaneous reaction is that this is not a very appealing image, Jung enveloped by huge fibrous roots. My take is that the tall trees denote Jung's lifework, his enormous intellectual accomplishment, and that it has come to bog him down, envelop him like a multitude of snakes. His life's philosophy has acquired a life of itself and continued to grow organically, as it were. However, among the roots are interspersed threads of gold that represent the many valuable insights that he and his pupils have contributed to the world. The organic roots, however, are just plain life, especially intellectual life, neither good nor bad, neither valuable nor valueless. Jung is kept prisoner at the root of the trees. It is he who has given rise to them, and continues to give them nourishment.

It could be an asphyxiation symbol, as certain species of snake hunt this way. In the last year of his life, when Jung was very sick, he managed to write the fine essay for Man and His Symbols, something which took a great toll on him. Bair says that "[t]he essay is a tribute to his willpower, for he wrote it doggedly despite dangerously elevated blood pressure, lack of oxygen to the brain, inability to walk more than a few shuffling steps at a time..." (p.621). He had really deserved to recline in the lap of God during the last precious months of his life. But the roots of the tall trees, his own theory, enveloped him, and kept him prisoner.

[deleted guesswork]

Arguably, the dream is a tribute to his great achievement, but it could also depict a tragedy. It says the truth about Jung's accomplishments, its effects on himself, and where are its historical roots. It is portrayed as blind, meaningless, enveloping life, interspersed with golden threads. Life's dark and light aspects appear in conjunction. Arguably, the greater personality, the greater is the tragedy and the success, as they appear in conjunction. Maybe life cannot be in another way. Somehow this tallies with Jung's own view of life, as darkness and light combined.

Mats Winther


Last edited by Matswin on Sun Mar 06, 2011 2:50 pm, edited 8 times in total.



Sat Mar 05, 2011 2:14 pm
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Barbara Hannah, in Jung: His Life and Work, pp.347-48, interprets the dream as meaning unity, wholeness, and closure (according to Bair, p.622). I don't own this biography myself. If somebody could cite from her interpretation I would be glad. The square is a wholeness symbol, but it could also refer to Jung's focus on the quaternity. A square with tall trees is an apt symbol of Jung's lifework.

If the dream means "closure" (death), then death implies that Jung becomes one with his lifework. He is enclosed in the tree, similar to how Osiris, in Egyptian myth, is enclosed in a cedar tree. In Jung's vision from 1944, as an aftermath of an heart attack, he experienced that "the whole phantamagoria of earthly existence, fell away or was stripped from me - an extremely painful process. Nevertheless something remained; it was as if I now carried along with me everything I had ever experienced or done, everything that had happened around me. I consisted of all that, so to speak. I consisted of my own history, and I felt with great certainty: this is what I am. I am this bundle of what has been, and what has been accomplished" (MDR, pp.290-91).

This could put my former overly "negative" interpretation to question. The theme of intelligent man being overcome by his own creation is notorious in modern myth, as in the novel Frankenstein by Mary Shelley, or the robotic overthrow of society in the film Terminator. But Jung's dream could in fact depict his own death, how he is slowly being enveloped by his own tree, the "bundle of what has been, and what has been accomplished."

Mats Winther


Sun Mar 06, 2011 9:40 am
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Post Jung inflation
Mats,

If the dream of the trees prior to his serious illness, and if your interpretation of this dream is true, then somehow, the dream is a harbinger of his illness.

Etienne Perrot: "The garden of the Queen": "In confidence delivered by the end of his life, Jung attributed his severe illness in 1944, which led to the gates of death and even beyond, to a psychic inflation caused an incorrect attitude. In dealing with the world of the soul, he had only seen simple concepts where in reality he was dealing with the gods, this is to say living powers charged with an higher energy."

Jung :"In early 1944, I fractured my foot and soon after I had a cardiac infarction. Of unconsciousness, I had delirium and visions"

Annick de Souzenelle : "When Man sells outside of him, in vain reasons, the precious energies contained in the foot, the latter reflects the swelling of the soul. The vernacular is ironic about "swollen ankles>>. And number of incidents at this member: fracture, sprain, etc.., are none other than somatization signifying a profound mistake. Any disease is significant. One foot denounces a false start in the path of growth."

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Sun Mar 06, 2011 12:45 pm
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Post Re: Jung's late dream of being enveloped by huge roots
Matswin wrote:
In the last year of his life, when Jung was very sick, he managed to write the fine essay for Man and His Symbols, something which took a great toll on him. Bair says that "[t]he essay is a tribute to his willpower, for he wrote it doggedly despite dangerously elevated blood pressure, lack of oxygen to the brain, inability to walk more than a few shuffling steps at a time..." (p.621).


I do not agree with Bair.

http://www.cgjung.net/oeuvre/exploration.htm
Jung dreamed "that instead of talking, sitting in his office with great doctors and psychiatrists who came to see the world, he was on a public square, and spoke to a crowd who listened with profound attention, and understood what he said ... . This was one of the events that marked the birth of this book.
This text, one of the last written by Jung, is integrated in the anthology "The Man and His Symbols. "

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Sun Mar 06, 2011 12:58 pm
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Post 1944
In astrological time, 1944 might be considered the end of the world; the end of Pisces, marked by the foot - marked by two world wars. This fellow, candle in head, "enlightened one" appeared in 1943:

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From then to 9/11 and the falling towers, the age of wu chi; unmanifest and undetermined karma (no country, no heavern . . . no religion too). Aquarius, the lower leg, starting thereafter. (This image from "Lost" which is an Aquarian saga).

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Sun Mar 06, 2011 1:05 pm
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Post 1944 is not 1961
http://www.cgjung.net/publications/6_juin_1961.htm

Ruth Bailey, who cared for him since 1955, wrote in a letter June 16, 1961 to Miguel Serrano: "He died peacefully, he merely fell asleep at the end, and he wanted. He was so tired and so weak. [...] and for two days before his death he had gone to a distant country and saw wonderful things and wonderful, I'm sure. He smiled often and was happy. [...] It was a wonderful dream he told me "He saw a huge round boulder placed on a high pedestal, and at the foot of the stone were engraved the words :and this will be for you a sign of wholeness and unity.
"

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Sun Mar 06, 2011 1:06 pm
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Post foot/aquarius
I did not know they were "associated"
"Its anatomical connections are the legs, ankles, heels, and nerves."


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Sun Mar 06, 2011 1:45 pm
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Post Back To The Rhizome
Rhizome - A horizontal, usually underground stem that often sends out roots and shoots from its nodes. Also called rootstalk, rootstock.[/quote]

Mats,

When I read your post I immediately felt it was too negative. For me Jung being ensnared in tree roots is an apt symbolic message that we all are destined for that symbolic “place”. It’s the VNS Remo suggests we all get used too while alive so that when we die we will be in tune with this world in the Beyond, i.e., to be comfortable in Eros ego consciousness or wave like in our consciousness. It reminds me of what a psychologist told me once,

Quote:
You are what you are aware of.

Like this it is like the Sufi saying Remo likes to quote, that you can; “die before you die.”

Gregory

Quote:
He moved about on the second floor (his library, his bedroom, and a large balcony were on the same floor) until Tuesday May 30, exactly a week before he died, and even did some writing. Then he had another slight stroke and had to leave his library for good. He was just one week in bed and remained conscious to the end. His last visions were largely concerned with the future of the world after his death. He told MLvF, the last time she saw him, eight days before his death, that he had had a vision in which a large part of the world was destroyed, but, he added, “Thank God, not all of it.”

His last recorded dream which he dreamed a few nights before his death, we owe to Ruth Bailey. She kindly wrote it out for me at the time: (Cf. Miguel Serrano, C.G. Jung and Hermann Hesse: A Record of Two Friendships, New York: Schocken Books, 1966, p. 105ff)

(1) He saw a big, round block of stone in a high bare place and on it was inscribed: “This shall be a sign unto you of wholeness and oneness.”
(2) A lot of vessels, pottery vases, on the right side of a square place.
(3) A square of trees, all fibrous roots, coming up from the ground and surrounding him. There were gold threads gleaming among the roots.

[Note: I have read somewhere else another supposed detail of this dream – can’t find the source at the moment. When surrounded in this “net” he heard a voice say, “Do not be afraid for you are protected.” Protected from dissolving back into the primordial soup with the undifferentiated psyche it seems.]

This is a very beautiful last dream, in which Jung’s unity and wholeness are confirmed and shown to him in the symbol of the round stone. The pots in the square to the right are also full of meaning, when we remember that in ancient Egypt some parts of the dismembered corpse of the god Osiris were kept in pots, because it was from these that the resurrection was expected to take place. Moreover, the old Greeks kept pots in their houses full of wheat seeds. The pots and the soil represented the underworld and the seed the dead waiting for resurrection. About the time of All Souls’ Day, the pots were opened and the dead were supposed to join the living. (It is interesting to remember that sometimes when Jung spoke of his reasons for taking someone to be his pupil or patient, he said: “Oh, I thought he or she was a good pot, and therefore I would invest in it.”) Christ’s saying: “Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except a corn of wheat fall into the ground and die, it abideth alone: but if it die, it bringeth forth much fruit” (John 12:24) belongs in the same connection.

As to the roots, Jung said in Memories:

Quote:
Life has always seemed to me like a plant that lives on its rhizome. Its true life is invisible, hidden in the rhizome. The part that appears above ground lasts only a single summer. Then it withers away – an ephemeral apparition. When we think of the unending growth and decay of life and civilizations, we cannot escape the impression of absolute nullity. Yet I have never lost a sense of something that lives and endures underneath the eternal flux. What we see is the blossom, which passes. The rhizome remains. MDR, p. 4

Now that the “blossom was passing away” and proving itself, like all mortal life, to be “an ephemeral apparition,” the eternal roots, that were also C.G. Jung, appeared above the surface and spread themselves protectingly over him. This dream tells us with the greatest clearness that Jung was dying at the right time, and was about to be received by that rhizome which he had always known was there as his “true invisible life.” Or, to use the language he used in Memories, his No. 1 personality was dying, but his No. 2 remained unchanged.

[Note: In another place Jung writes that all he did was step into the stream (of images) and all that he really knew flowed from that.]

Jung died at 3:45 PM on Tuesday afternoon, June 6. There were again some synchronistic events, as there had been in 1944 (See further quote below). I remember most vividly that when I went to fetch my car, just before he died, I found the battery, which was not old and had never given the slightest trouble before, completely run down. This puzzled me very much at the time; when Ruth telephoned about half an hour later, it seemed quite natural as if the car had known.

There was, however, no thunderstorm at the time Jung died (as has been reported from time to time). That came an hour or two later, at which time lightning stuck a tall poplar tree in his garden at the edge of the lake. This is most unusual, for the water attracts the lightning and therefore trees and houses on its banks are usually immune. The tree was not destroyed, only a great deal of its bark was stripped off. In, fact, it was discovered by the family when they found the lawn covered with bits of bark when they went into the garden after the storm was over. Barbara Hannah, JUNG, His Life And Work, Chapter 18, pp. 347-348.


Quote:
1944: There were many strange synchronistic events in the environment during the time that Jung lay between life and death. I will mention only two of these. One of his pupils had the worst attack of flu of her life and was also very near death. Then she had a sudden vision of Jung approaching her urgently, saying: “I have decided to go back to the earth; get back into your own body as quickly as you can.” Another pupil, who also had a very bad attack of that year’s virulent flu was suddenly horrified to find that her watch and the clock beside her bed had stopped at exactly the same moment. She was terrified that this might mean that Jung had died at that moment and went through great agony before she could get news of him. (It was certainly not by chance that it was just these two pupils of Jung who had these synchronistic experiences, for one of them had dreamed about three weeks before Jung broke his leg (GJS: right or left?), that she was on a ship that was just at the point of sailing from a port on the West coast of Greece. The ship was crowded, but the only passenger she recognized was the other pupil (they were not close friends). She said to her: “I thought Jung was coming on the ship, but I don’t see him anywhere.” Her fellow pupil replied: “Oh, yes, he is on the bridge,” at which moment the ship sailed. After some time, for unknown reasons, it turned around and went back to the port from whence it had sailed. When Jung heard the dream, during his convalescence, he said that evidently those two pupil, or at all events the one who had the dream, would have died also, had he not been recalled to earth, for the boat in that dream must have been Charon’s boat which set out to take them all over the Styx but had turned back for then unknown reasons.) p.278


Sun Mar 06, 2011 1:49 pm
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Post The "star - aquarius" and the subtle body
hypothesis: The unconscious, in the Age of Aquarius, will serve as the incarnation of spirit into matter. The subtle body is symbolized by the green plant. The black bird is the spirit hidden in matter.


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Sun Mar 06, 2011 1:58 pm
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Thanks for the input. I realize that my interpretation is very uncertain, maybe it's stupid, even, in which case I will remove it later. Fox, it cannot be a harbinger of disease, for he was already very sick. Gregory, thanks for the citations. If it's true that he heard a voice "Do not be afraid for you are protected", then it's as if the trees reach out and envelop him in order to protect him, in a motherly way. It is a very curious symbol, all too easy to interpret negatively. But maybe it means something wonderful, which has to do with passing away. By the way, M-L von Franz: On Dreams & Death, is a highly recommendable book.

Mats


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Post Interpretation
Quote:
Mats wrote: I realize that my interpretation is very uncertain, maybe it's stupid, even, in which case I will remove it later.


I hope you leave your interpretation. It is an example of the uncertainty in the struggle of becoming conscious. Further this thread will then retain its continuity.

Gregory


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Yes, I will keep it, I only deleted a paragraph. It is true that also erroneous interpretations can be of value, as they are tried and criticized, so nobody needs to do the mistake again.

Mats


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Post Merlin/Jung/tree
As Jesus is presented as tree to represent earth shaman, so Merlin in this nice picture by Gustave Dore - Here Self with Anima, Vivien is presented as extension of the tree and part of the trees roots. The laurels have become the crown of thorns in the church, but the shaman may - like Jung - find unity in nature as is expressed here by Dore.

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Sun Mar 06, 2011 2:57 pm
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Post 
Of course, it is a form of crucifixion, but Merlin-wise, as he is fused with the tree, much like Osiris inside the cedar tree, and Jesus being fixed on the cross. It means unity with the Earth-Mother. As Jung felt a kind of secret identity with Merlin, something he admitted to himself, this image is very apt.

Mats


Sun Mar 06, 2011 3:07 pm
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Post Inflation
Quote:
Fox wrote: Etienne Perrot: "The garden of the Queen" (GJS: Queen’s Garden by Perrot): "In confidence delivered by the end of his life, Jung attributed his severe illness in 1944, which led to the gates of death and even beyond, to a psychic inflation caused an incorrect attitude. In dealing with the world of the soul, he had only seen simple concepts where in reality he was dealing with the gods, this is to say living powers charged with a higher energy."


Fox, do you, or does anyone else, happen to know to whom this “confidence” about an inflation was given? Or, has anyone else heard about this hidden reason for Jung’s 1944 accident? The reason I inquire is because I have not come across this kind of information before. Strange that Jung would not have mentioned that an inflation brought on his accident and his NDE in MDR given that his whole life was devoted to psychology.

As far as I know whenever transpersonal energies are touched by the ego they become Luciferian, they become inflationary. At least for a time. It goes with the territory.

Gregory


Sun Mar 06, 2011 4:36 pm
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Post Re: Inflation
Gregory Sova wrote:
. Strange that Jung would not have mentioned that an inflation brought on his accident and his NDE in MDR given that his whole life was devoted to psychology.

Gregory


Etienne Perrot gives more details in another of his books. I would try to find the text.

(This is the same Jung that forgets to mention that Emma Jung suffered a lot because of his numerous infidelities. Emma Jung had to endure the presence of Toni Wolf in her own house ...)

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Sun Mar 06, 2011 7:33 pm
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Post Re: Inflation
Gregory Sova wrote:
Fox, do you, or does anyone else, happen to know to whom this “confidence” about an inflation was given? Gregory


Yes, it was Margaret Ostrowski-Sachs,one of his students:
" this disease, he said, was highly symbolic for me. I was wondering what area I made a mistake ... It seemed to have been inflation. After some time, I understood, I had ventured into foreign territory. Ignorance then equivalent to a fault. I wrote about the anima and animus thinking I was doing work of psychologist. but in fact I spent into God's country. Alchemy seems to me to be a legitimate branch of science, but its contents (the anima, the animus, the Self, the alchemical marriage) are not simply scientific concepts: they are gods. I had not realized, not by presumption, but stupidity as Percival in the Grail stories."
From conversations with CG Jung, Institut CG Jung, Zurich, 1971 p. 68

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Sun Mar 06, 2011 9:39 pm
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Post Negative Inflation
Fox,

Thanks for the information. Like this I did a little searching around on the Internet and see that Jung’s attitude problem was one of a negative inflation, i.e., he presumed to assume his fate was less than it was and was thus was hiding his light underneath a bushel basket as the scriptures warn against.

I don’t have the book so I can’t check but I find the following excerpt on the Internet.

In conversation with Margaret Ostrowski-Sachs, a friend of Hermann Hesse, Jung admitted that he had kept this “secret knowledge” to himself ...

Quote:
In a private conversation to Margaret Ostrowski-Sachs, published in Conversations with C.G.Jung, Jung told her:

Quote:
Before my illness I had often asked myself if I were permitted to publish or even speak of my secret knowledge. I later set it all down in Aion. I realized it was my duty to communicate these thoughts, yet I doubted whether I was allowed to give expression to them. During my illness I received confirmation and I now knew that everything had meaning and that everything was perfect.


Of course a negative inflation is also an inflation - its sign is different, one depreciates the role the God(s) have chosen one to play on the world stage.

Gregory


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Post Re: Back To The Rhizome
Gregory & All

Gregory Sova wrote:
When I read your post I immediately felt it was too negative. For me Jung being ensnared in tree roots is an apt symbolic message that we all are destined for that symbolic “place”. It’s the VNS Remo suggests we all get used too while alive so that when we die we will be in tune with this world in the Beyond, i.e., to be comfortable in Eros ego consciousness or wave like in our consciousness. It reminds me of what a psychologist told me once,
Quote:
You are what you are aware of.

Like this it is like the Sufi saying Remo likes to quote, that you can; “die before you die.”


I agree with you and with Hannah's interpretation of the dream. Giving up one's own will is so difficult and it was especially difficult for C.G. Jung. When we read about his 'night-sea journey', we see that even in it he never gave up the will completely. It seems that it was not his fate. This shows also the fact that he needed all his will to write the chapter in Man and his Symbols. But near death he had to capitulate. Thus, to me the dream also compensates this conscious attitude.

When I slept the first time in Jung's Turm in Bollingen I had a dream in which the Turm was completely vegetative. I also dreamt of rhizomes. Today I know that these dreams meant that I have to live this vegetative life; and out of this insight I developed BCI. Jung, however, entered the Eros state of the unconscious 'only' near death. However, as I said above, it was not his fate to discover the Eros ego.

Remo

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Tis very cheap in price!
The more it is despised by fools,
The more loved by the wise.'
(C.G. Jung, MDR, p. 253)
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Mon Mar 07, 2011 3:20 am
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Post Jung's dream
Gregory Sova wrote:
His last recorded dream which he dreamed a few nights before his death, we owe to Ruth Bailey. She kindly wrote it out for me at the time: (Cf. Miguel Serrano, C.G. Jung and Hermann Hesse: A Record of Two Friendships, New York: Schocken Books, 1966, p. 105ff)

(1) He saw a big, round block of stone in a high bare place and on it was inscribed: “This shall be a sign unto you of wholeness and oneness.”
(2) A lot of vessels, pottery vases, on the right side of a square place.
(3) A square of trees, all fibrous roots, coming up from the ground and surrounding him. There were gold threads gleaming among the roots.


Already the first time when I read this dream I had somehow a feeling of incompleteness. Though the motifs are very beautiful, there is one problem in the dream: The round stone and the square are not together. The squaring of the circle and its opposite, the 'circularization of the square' are symbols of the so-called exchange of attributes happening during the coniunctio, the Holy Wedding. Thus, somehow the dream tells us that Jung did not reach this goal. On the other hand, as I quoted many times, Jung confessed in fact to Pauli that he did not reach the coniunctio, and that this is the task of the future.

Today I see that the feeling of incompleteness showed me that it was and still is my fate to begin with this task.

Remo

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'Here stands the mean uncomely stone,
Tis very cheap in price!
The more it is despised by fools,
The more loved by the wise.'
(C.G. Jung, MDR, p. 253)
WebSite: http://www.paulijungunusmundus.eu


Mon Mar 07, 2011 3:26 am
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Post Re: Back To The Rhizome
Also Merlin was enclosed by the 'rhizome'. This could mean that his magic disappeared, as it did in the 17th century, when math entered the description of nature. In Jung's depth psychology we see more and more the tendency to throw out the magical, the Hermetic aspect of it. Best example is Shamdasani's Neoplatonic interpretation of the Red Book. Thus, the dream could also anticipate this development. But then, the magic aspect enters unconsciously and thus as a negative projections. Dr. B., who projected so much shit into me, is a very good example of this tendency. However, only in this way I was able to begin the distinction between the Neoplatonic and the Hermetic aspect of Jung's work, as I did in Return of the World Soul. One very important result is the differentiation between Jung's Anima and the anima mundi; the former being the mediator between the intellectual ego and the unconscious, the latter the mediator between spirit and matter and thus a symbol of the energetic aspect of the unus mundus (which, IMO, is not the same as the collective unconscious).

Such a differentiation solves many of the contradictions in Jung's work. It helped me very much to formulate my theory of the psychophysical reality, the unus mundus. Coming in contact with it seems only be possible in the state of the Eros ego. The last time of his life Jung lived in this ego. This is why he was so happy. However, he was not able anymore to integrate the Eros ego into his theory. The reason is the fact that he was not able to realize the bipolarity of the energy term, the existence of (magic) matter-psyche energy besides the objective psychic energy. This way he was neither able to formulate a modern version of the exchange of the attributes happening during the coniunctio

Remo

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'Here stands the mean uncomely stone,
Tis very cheap in price!
The more it is despised by fools,
The more loved by the wise.'
(C.G. Jung, MDR, p. 253)
WebSite: http://www.paulijungunusmundus.eu


Mon Mar 07, 2011 3:39 am
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Post Re: Jung inflation
fox,

fox wrote:
Etienne Perrot: "The garden of the Queen": "In confidence delivered by the end of his life, Jung attributed his severe illness in 1944, which led to the gates of death and even beyond, to a psychic inflation caused an incorrect attitude. In dealing with the world of the soul, he had only seen simple concepts where in reality he was dealing with the gods, this is to say living powers charged with an higher energy."


This is a very interesting statement. In my terminology I would formulate as follows: Jung did not realize what I call the matter-psyche aspect of energy. It is the magic energy behind objective psychic energy and physical energy. Though Jung had such parapsychological experiences, he was not yet able to include their background into his theory since he did not yet see the (double) bipolarity of the energy term: on the one hand what I call inner spirit-psyche (objective psychic energy) and outer spirit-psyche (physical energy), on the other matter-psyche (magic energy of the unus mundus. In synchronicity as well as in parapsychological events the transformation into matter-psyche and its re-transformation into spirit-psyche with higher order happens. In the former case a new insight is achieved (if the sync is interpreted; inner spirit-psyche with higher order), in the latter in the negative case Pauli effects happen (outer spirit-psyche not behaving according to physical laws). In the conscious and thus positive case healing is reached (magic healing). Be it individual, be it collective.

Remo

PS: Does anybody know, perhaps Roger, whether Perrot felt that Jung's theory is incomplete?

_________________
'Here stands the mean uncomely stone,
Tis very cheap in price!
The more it is despised by fools,
The more loved by the wise.'
(C.G. Jung, MDR, p. 253)
WebSite: http://www.paulijungunusmundus.eu


Mon Mar 07, 2011 8:55 am
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Post Re: Jung inflation
Cher Remo,

Remo Roth wrote:

PS: Does anybody know, perhaps Roger, whether Perrot felt that Jung's theory is incomplete?


from private conversations I know that Etienne was sometimes annoyed with Jung's theory he found confusing as regards his own practice. Even if he referred to the Self, he was much more related to the 'Queen' not to be understood as the anima (Jung's) but the World Soul, or the Eros Self.

He was not too keen on theoritical aspects, but was closer to you than to 'traditional jungianism'.

This is one of the reasons why your approach seemed quite 'natural' to me when I first discovered your work.

Roger

_________________
Fire over wood:
THE IMAGE of THE CAULDRON.
Thus the superior man consolidates his fate By making his position correct.
The fate of fire depends on wood; as long as there is wood below, the fire burns above. It is the same in human life; there is in man likewise a fate that lends power to his life. And if he succeeds in assigning the right place to life and to fate, thus bringing the two into harmony, he puts his fate on a firm footing.

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Mon Mar 07, 2011 9:18 am
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Post Re: Jung inflation
Roger,

Roger Faglin wrote:
He was not too keen on theoritical aspects, but was closer to you than to 'traditional jungianism'.
This is one of the reasons why your approach seemed quite 'natural' to me when I first discovered your work.


I thought that you feel closer to my theory since you were 'prepared' by Etienne Perrot. Further I think that for feeling and intuitive types this world is much closer than Jung's.

Remo

_________________
'Here stands the mean uncomely stone,
Tis very cheap in price!
The more it is despised by fools,
The more loved by the wise.'
(C.G. Jung, MDR, p. 253)
WebSite: http://www.paulijungunusmundus.eu


Mon Mar 07, 2011 12:45 pm
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Post Re: Jung inflation
Remo Roth wrote:
I thought that you feel closer to my theory since you were 'prepared' by Etienne Perrot. Further I think that for feeling and intuitive types this world is much closer than Jung's.

Remo


actually, the way I first met Etienne Perrot is in itself an amazing story, the fruit of a 'synchronicity quest' as you would say. It took me quite a time to realize the immense gap between my reading of the Jung I love the best (his late works), the way I approached the Eros Self with Etienne and the common Jungian practice I was 'protected' from in a way.

I remember also that Etienne considered that he was going 'farther' than Jung in that he did not care for that little millimeter that Jung kept from the floor when he bent in front of the deity in his dream. He knew that only a complete surrender to the 'Queen' was the way to transformation and a new birth. This is why he was considered as 'mad' by official Jungians, the same who considered Jung as senile and dangerous in his late life.

R.

_________________
Fire over wood:
THE IMAGE of THE CAULDRON.
Thus the superior man consolidates his fate By making his position correct.
The fate of fire depends on wood; as long as there is wood below, the fire burns above. It is the same in human life; there is in man likewise a fate that lends power to his life. And if he succeeds in assigning the right place to life and to fate, thus bringing the two into harmony, he puts his fate on a firm footing.

I Ching #50


Mon Mar 07, 2011 2:43 pm
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Post Re: Negative Inflation
Gregory Sova wrote:

Thanks for the information. Like this I did a little searching around on the Internet and see that Jung’s attitude problem was one of a negative inflation, i.e., he presumed to assume his fate was less than it was and was thus was hiding his light underneath a bushel basket as the scriptures warn against.

(...)

Of course a negative inflation is also an inflation - its sign is different, one depreciates the role the God(s) have chosen one to play on the world stage.

Gregory


Yes 'negative inflation' is a very interesting psychological deadend.

It comes from the fact that basically one refuses one's role as a carrier of the light (Lucifer <- Lux fero = I carry the light). Something that has been hammered into collective consciousness by the Church, and especially the OT. It is also a very bad evaluation of what (conscious) power is about, this bad evaluation being sustained by the unconscious power complex.

Like in the image of hexagram 45, the Caldron:

Quote:
THE IMAGE of THE CAULDRON.
Thus the superior man consolidates his fate By making his position correct.
The fate of fire depends on wood; as long as there is wood below, the fire burns above. It is the same in human life; there is in man likewise a fate that lends power to his life. And if he succeeds in assigning the right place to life and to fate, thus bringing the two into harmony, he puts his fate on a firm footing.


If one succeeds in assigning the right place to life and to fate, thus bringing the two into harmony, he puts his fate on a firm footing. Something Jung missed, as he missed his step before his heart attack.

Making oneself too small definitely hurts the divine spark that tries to incarnate. The only way to deal with it is what Jung acknowledged aferwards: let it piss and swim with the flow. The problem of course is that Lux Ferro is not welcome in our society, where seriousness and prestige are the companions of rationality, Logos. This is why his late works, even if still too contradictory and neo-platonist, were discarded by his followers.

I remember when I first started to read Jung. I was working in England, not far from St Albans, and I had full access to the College library. I felt a fire, I felt a presence through the so many pages. You see my reading was not scientific, intellectual. I was grasping Merlin's poetry beyond the austere words. I simply could not stop.

I am not sure that they teach Jung this way in Zürich :lol:

R.

_________________
Fire over wood:
THE IMAGE of THE CAULDRON.
Thus the superior man consolidates his fate By making his position correct.
The fate of fire depends on wood; as long as there is wood below, the fire burns above. It is the same in human life; there is in man likewise a fate that lends power to his life. And if he succeeds in assigning the right place to life and to fate, thus bringing the two into harmony, he puts his fate on a firm footing.

I Ching #50


Mon Mar 07, 2011 5:15 pm
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Post Re: Negative Inflation
Roger Faglin wrote:
I am not sure that they teach Jung this way in Zürich :lol:


Roger,

I think they do not so all over the world.

Remo

_________________
'Here stands the mean uncomely stone,
Tis very cheap in price!
The more it is despised by fools,
The more loved by the wise.'
(C.G. Jung, MDR, p. 253)
WebSite: http://www.paulijungunusmundus.eu


Mon Mar 07, 2011 5:30 pm
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Post Jung/Freud
AS America rose in influence since 1917 it seems virtually impossible for Jung to have gotten wider influence - Freud dominated NY influence - Jung was even presented again and again as a fascist even up till 1985. Joseph Campbell as well.


Tue Mar 08, 2011 12:33 pm
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