UNUS MUNDUS

The UNUS MUNDUS forum of Psychovision (Remo F. Roth) invites discussion of theoretical and practical issues of a possible union of Carl Jung's depth psychology with quantum physical principles.
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 Comments on Remo Roth's theory 
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Post Comments on Remo Roth's theory
This is how I have understood Remo's theory. Please correct me if I'm wrong:

Remo Roth's theory revolves around the creation/activation of the "matter-psyche", or the "eros self". The eros self is the shadow of the logos self (the collective "spirit-psyche"). To this end "body-centered imagination" is used. It is a deeply introverted vegetative procedure, in which the ego is, in contrast to Jungian active imagination, very passive. The process is expressed in the alchemical symbol of 'coniunctio', the union of rex and regina. The process necessitates a 'sacrificio intellectualis', interpreted as a conscious repression of thinking. It aims at 'unio corporalis', the creation of the "subtle body", by focusing on the eros processes. The term "subtle body" is not merely a spiritual notion, but refers to an observable "inner aspect" of the body and of matter, termed 'quintessence' by the alchemists. It represents the birth of the "matter-psyche" in oneself. However, 'unio corporalis' is extant as a "vegetative psychophysical process", which is behind human sexuality and the transference problem between the sexes.

Comments:

(1) It is not clear whether the subtle body is the conjunct eros self and logos self, or whether the subtle body is equivalent with the matter-psyche (eros self).

(2) According to Jung, the alchemists mistook the unconscious as "matter", i.e. the collective unconscious were projected onto matter. Roth must explain to traditional Jungians why his own system does not represent a throwback to an outdated frame of mind, i.e. the projection of unconscious processes onto matter/body.

(3) In what sense does Roth's concept of body-centered imagination differ from the technique of contemplation practiced by the Christian mystics, such as Juan de la Cruz? The mystics strived after 'unio mentalis' by way of 'sacrificio intellectualis' and practices of 'mortificatio' (subduing passions of soul and body). To this end 'meditatio' (godly fantasies) must be discontinued, and the mind enter the "dark night of the soul". Juan de la Cruz, and other Christian mystics, argued that both godly thoughts and imaginative work are performed at an amateur's stage. In the end, it is a distraction from God and will only delay mortification, which aims at spiritual death (cf. Ascent of Mount Carmel, Book 2, Ch.12). Thus, contemplation implies the abandonment of the conscious processes associated with the ego. In what sense does Roth's passive meditation differ from the infused contemplation of the mystics? Or does Roth work to revive this mode of contemplation which Jung overtly took exception to?

Mats Winther

(see also my article at http://home7.swipnet.se/~w-73784/dependency.htm )


Mon Mar 07, 2011 9:28 am
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Post Re: Comments on Remo Roth's theory
Matswin wrote:
This is how I have understood Remo's theory. Please correct me if I'm wrong:

Remo Roth's theory revolves around the creation/activation of the "matter-psyche", or the "eros self". The eros self is the shadow of the logos self (the collective "spirit-psyche"). To this end "body-centered imagination" is used. It is a deeply introverted vegetative procedure, in which the ego is, in contrast to Jungian active imagination, very passive. The process is expressed in the alchemical symbol of 'coniunctio', the union of rex and regina. The process necessitates a 'sacrificio intellectualis', interpreted as a conscious repression of thinking. It aims at 'unio corporalis', the creation of the "subtle body", by focusing on the eros processes. The term "subtle body" is not merely a spiritual notion, but refers to an observable "inner aspect" of the body and of matter, termed 'quintessence' by the alchemists. It represents the birth of the "matter-psyche" in oneself. However, 'unio corporalis' is extant as a "vegetative psychophysical process", which is behind human sexuality and the transference problem between the sexes.


Mats, this is a correct rendition of my theory. Thank you for this short synopsis.

Remo

_________________
'Here stands the mean uncomely stone,
Tis very cheap in price!
The more it is despised by fools,
The more loved by the wise.'
(C.G. Jung, MDR, p. 253)
WebSite: http://www.paulijungunusmundus.eu


Mon Mar 07, 2011 12:50 pm
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Post Re: Comments on Remo Roth's theory
Matswin wrote:
(1) It is not clear whether the subtle body is the conjunct eros self and logos self, or whether the subtle body is equivalent with the matter-psyche (eros self).


The subtle body is the result of the union of logos and eros. It is the quintessence, the infans solaris or the red tincture, the second result of the unio corporalis or of the Holy Wedding. The first result of the coniunctio -- which is itself the second stage of the alchemical opus after the first, the unio mentalis -- is the creation of the lapis, the alchemical gold, the Seal of Solomon, a subtle sphere inbetween spirit/Heaven and matter/earth.

The union of logos and eros happens in the way as described in Chapter 4 of Mysterium coniunctionis: the king dies and enters the womb of the queen. There he dissolves and becomes the sperm or the phallus of the queen.

This means in a scientific language on the collective level that causality is abandoned and the existence of singular acausal incarnation acts is accepted (instead of statistical causality of quantum physics); it is, in the physical-symbolic language that Pauli demanded, some sort of a consciously observed singular radioactive decay on the psychophysical level. These acausal incarnation acts are empirically observable as inner 'images out of the belly' and/or vegetative sensations. They create the subtle body.

On the individual level the above mentioned Hermetic alchemical myth means the death of the logos ego and its replacement by the eros ego. Only the latter is able to observe the singluar creation/incarnation (and perhaps even reincarnation) acts out of the unus mundus.

The individual coniunctio is necessary for the observation of the colletive coniunctio. Further, as in quantum physics mere observation is sufficient for the release of the incarnation. No will-based act is necessary. It is what C.G. Jung called the 'point A phenomenon' and Isaak Luria the tikkun.

Remo

_________________
'Here stands the mean uncomely stone,
Tis very cheap in price!
The more it is despised by fools,
The more loved by the wise.'
(C.G. Jung, MDR, p. 253)
WebSite: http://www.paulijungunusmundus.eu


Mon Mar 07, 2011 1:09 pm
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Post Re: Comments on Remo Roth's theory
Matswin wrote:
(2) According to Jung, the alchemists mistook the unconscious as "matter", i.e. the collective unconscious were projected onto matter. Roth must explain to traditional Jungians why his own system does not represent a throwback to an outdated frame of mind, i.e. the projection of unconscious processes onto matter/body.


Neither Jung nor the alchemists were able to distinguish causal processes from acausal processes in matter. [One can show that Jung did not understand the phenomenon of the singular quantum leap, the acausal phenomenon happening in matter.] Thus the alchemists mixed always up causal and acausal processes; and so did Jung.

In his theory of the development of the archetype of the Self in AION he argues completely causal. However, in his synchronicity theory he tells us that the dream and the outer phenomenon are insofar in an acausal relationship as the dream is not the cause of the outer event.

If we, however, distinguish between the collective unconscious and the unus mundus and further postulate that the former works causally and the latter acausally, we can distinguish different cases:

1. The alchemists observed causal processes in matter, did however not be conscious of this fact. Since they lived yet in a world in which outer and inner processes were looked at as being identical (Hermetic alchemy: As above so below, as inside so outside) seen from our modern world view we can say that they projected inner causal processes into the processes in matter. This is Jung's statement, with the difference that it is only true for causal processes.

2. On the other hand the alchemists observed also acausal processes in matter. In my definition such processes include the unus mundus. They correspond to the radioactive decay (which in fact is not a physical but a psychophysical phenomenon). In this case the alchemists did not project, but observed real incarnation phenomena. This is so, since every acausal process is an incarnation (there is no cause for the 'effect').

We can make this differentiation when we postulate that the processes in the personal as well as the ones in the collective unconscious are causal. [That the processes in the personal unconscious are causal is empirically proven by Jung's association experiment.] However, the processes including the unus mundus are acausal and therefore real incarnation phenomena. IMO, in this way Jung's confusion is cleared. We can differentiate between the projection of causal inner phenomena and the observation of real incarnation phenomena in matter.

IMO, also UFO/alien experiencers observe this world of acausal incarnation phenomena. Since they are not conscious of being in the eros state of the ego, such observations are not sustainable. In BCI, however, we observe such phenomena consciously. This is why they lead to a sustainable change, to the incarnation of sustainable physical and/or psychical energy of higher order. In the first case this means healing of physical disease, in the latter the understanding of the meaning of a synchronicity.

Remo

_________________
'Here stands the mean uncomely stone,
Tis very cheap in price!
The more it is despised by fools,
The more loved by the wise.'
(C.G. Jung, MDR, p. 253)
WebSite: http://www.paulijungunusmundus.eu


Mon Mar 07, 2011 4:57 pm
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Post Re: Comments on Remo Roth's theory
Matswin wrote:
(3) In what sense does Roth's concept of body-centered imagination differ from the technique of contemplation practiced by the Christian mystics, such as Juan de la Cruz? The mystics strived after 'unio mentalis' by way of 'sacrificio intellectualis' and practices of 'mortificatio' (subduing passions of soul and body). To this end 'meditatio' (godly fantasies) must be discontinued, and the mind enter the "dark night of the soul". Juan de la Cruz, and other Christian mystics, argued that both godly thoughts and imaginative work are performed at an amateur's stage. In the end, it is a distraction from God and will only delay mortification, which aims at spiritual death (cf. Ascent of Mount Carmel, Book 2, Ch.12). Thus, contemplation implies the abandonment of the conscious processes associated with the ego. In what sense does Roth's passive meditation differ from the infused contemplation of the mystics? Or does Roth work to revive this mode of contemplation which Jung overtly took exception to?


I cannot comment this statement since I do not know Christan mysticism well enough (except the one of Nicholas von Flue; he lived unconsciously completely in the world of Hermetic alchemy). However, I think that all mystics were and are much closer to the Eros Self than to the Logos Self. Most of them did not have an academic education.

Remo

_________________
'Here stands the mean uncomely stone,
Tis very cheap in price!
The more it is despised by fools,
The more loved by the wise.'
(C.G. Jung, MDR, p. 253)
WebSite: http://www.paulijungunusmundus.eu


Mon Mar 07, 2011 5:06 pm
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Thanks for the clarifications. The practice of mystical contemplation is so important in history, so you ought to get a grasp of it, and compare it with your own notions. Much literature is freely available on the net. A book that might interest you is Joseph Henderson's Thresholds of Initiation (1967, 2005). He says that Jung's view of the self must be supplemented with a pendant version of the self. According to him there exists a 'primal' and an 'ultimate' God image, and initiations can occur in both directions, away from the one toward the other. I don't think it coincides with your notions, but here is yet another author who argues that Jung's self notion isn't good enough, but must be complemented.

Mats


Tue Mar 08, 2011 5:51 pm
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Post Jung's Theory as mythology
Matswin wrote:
Thanks for the clarifications. The practice of mystical contemplation is so important in history, so you ought to get a grasp of it, and compare it with your own notions. Much literature is freely available on the net. A book that might interest you is Joseph Henderson's Thresholds of Initiation (1967, 2005). He says that Jung's view of the self must be supplemented with a pendant version of the self. According to him there exists a 'primal' and an 'ultimate' God image, and initiations can occur in both directions, away from the one toward the other. I don't think it coincides with your notions, but here is yet another author who argues that Jung's self notion isn't good enough, but must be complemented.


Thanks a lot, Mats. I hope that I can deal with this book by Joseph Henderson. My trouble is that I am mostly overwhelmed by my own visions, synchronicities and dreams. In this way there is not too much space for reading other authors (today; not in the past). But of course there are others that feel that Jung's depth psychology is incomplete. And try their own way to complete it. IMO, this is in fact the creative way to show that the world is not reducible to some mathematical formulas or reductive theories, even Jungian.

This is already obvious when we take into account that he himself talked of the 'personal equation' of any scientist and his/her theory. Jung was honest and humble. This is why he thought that his theory will be mythology after some hundred years. I think that this will happen earlier. But he was the initiator of this revolutionary way of having such a different look at the world, the outer and the inner. I will never forget that by this attitude he saved my life.

Let's speak C.G. Jung himself:

Quote:
“The pioneer in a new field rarely has the good fortune to be able to draw valid conclusions from his total experience. The efforts and exertions, the doubts and uncertainties of his voyage of discovery have penetrated his marrow too deeply to allow him the perspective and clarity which are necessary for a comprehensive presentation. Those of the second generation, who base their work on the groping attempts, the chance hits, the circuitous approaches, the half truths and mistakes of the pioneer, are less burdened and can take more direct roads, envisage farther goals. They are able to cast off many doubts and hesitations, concentrate on essentials, and, in this way, map out a simpler and clearer picture of the newly discovered territory. This simplification and clarification redound to the benefit of those of the third generation, who are thus equipped from the outset with an over-all chart. With this chart they are enabled to formulate new problems and mark out the boundary lines more sharply than ever before.”

<In German in GW 18, § 1126; (CW 18, § 1126???; I do not possess the English translation; perhaps someone can look up the quote in English).>

Carl G. Jung in the Foreword to Esther Harding’s book Psychic Energy, Its Source and Its Transformation, Pantheon Books, Random House, Inc., N.Y., Bollingen Series X, 1948



Remo

_________________
'Here stands the mean uncomely stone,
Tis very cheap in price!
The more it is despised by fools,
The more loved by the wise.'
(C.G. Jung, MDR, p. 253)
WebSite: http://www.paulijungunusmundus.eu


Last edited by Remo Roth on Tue Mar 08, 2011 7:08 pm, edited 1 time in total.



Tue Mar 08, 2011 7:04 pm
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Post God image
Mats,

Some time ago, I dreamed of a woman in chocolate in a kitchen who cooked chocolate. When I awoke, I told myself that I had just met God.

A few seconds later I thought of Matrix.


Image

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Post Re: Jung's Theory as mythology
Remo Roth wrote:

<In German in GW 18, § 1126; (CW 18, § 1126???; I do not possess the English translation; perhaps someone can look up the quote in English).>


Remo


yes the paragraph cross referencing is right: 1126

Quote:
The pioneer in a new field rarely has the good fortune to be able to draw valid conclusions from his total experience. The efforts and struggles, the doubts and uncertainties of his voyage of dis¬covery have penetrated his marrow too deeply to allow him the perspective and clarity of vision needed for a comprehensive survey. Those of the second generation, who base their work on the grop¬ing experiments, the lucky hits, the circuitous approaches, the half truths and mistakes of the pioneer, are less burdened and can take more direct roads, envisage more distant goals. They can cast off many doubts and hesitations, concentrate on essentials, and, in this way, map out a simpler and clearer picture of the newly discovered territory. This simplification and clarification redound to the benefit of those of the third generation, who are thus equipped from the outset with an over-all chart. With this chart they are enabled to formulate new problems and mark out the boundary lines more sharply than ever before.


by the way my problem, if it is a problem, is a bit like yours: I have to dedicate most of my time to living my own images/visions/sensations, so much that reading has become a low priority, being the mystic more than studying him/her. I guess that's also what sacrificium intellectu is about. Funnily there are two kinds of books: those I could have written and those that feel rotten. The first ones can wait, the second ones will forever. :lol:

R.

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Fire over wood:
THE IMAGE of THE CAULDRON.
Thus the superior man consolidates his fate By making his position correct.
The fate of fire depends on wood; as long as there is wood below, the fire burns above. It is the same in human life; there is in man likewise a fate that lends power to his life. And if he succeeds in assigning the right place to life and to fate, thus bringing the two into harmony, he puts his fate on a firm footing.

I Ching #50


Tue Mar 08, 2011 7:35 pm
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Quote:
I have to dedicate most of my time to living my own images/visions/sensations, so much that reading has become a low priority, being the mystic more than studying him/her. I guess that's also what sacrificium intellectu is about.


One cannot learn what one does not already know and what one comes to know sometimes cannot really be expressed and so it really cannot be taught.

Perhaps that is why Jung's concepts, and yours, are not only complex but at times seemingly contradictory. The contradiction is always without (logos) rather than within (eros).


Wed Mar 09, 2011 5:32 pm
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Post Tear Up The Books Lest Your Heart Be Rent Asunder
It seems with Remo and Roger’s admissions about not reading books at this point in their individuation process have its predecessor in Jung who smelled his way forwards like this at one critical juncture in his opus.

Quote:
…between 1912 and 1917 Jung underwent an intense period of experience which involved a tremendous flooding of his consciousness from within by forces which he called archetypal but which previous ages would have declared to be divine and demonic. A certain amount of information regarding these experiences Jung communicated in confidence to various of his associates, but undoubtedly he experienced much more than he ever disclosed… At this time he withdrew from most external activities. It is even reported that during this period he did not read any books, assuredly a great event in the life of such a an avid student of every form of literature. Although he did not read, he wrote. Hoeller, The Gnostic Jung; and the Seven Sermons to the Dead, pp. 3-4.


Gregory


Wed Mar 09, 2011 9:29 pm
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Post no books, no country, no religion too
In a book about Taoist hermits in China, Red Pine, an excellent old Buddhist monk who lives in Thiawan, says that when adepts go to enlightenment at Cold Mountain they need to spend three years in quiet isolation and awakening then occurs. This seems to refer to the state of wu chi - the amorphic state beneath tai chi and itsdivision of things between the yin and the yang and the ten thousand things. Years back I went from New York City and professional life of publishing to a farm in Tobaccoville, North Carolina, where I raised my kids on a little sheep farm. I found after three years something amazing happened much as Red Pine writes. He said that after the three years the Taoist goes back to the world but lives in a spiritual trance while the zen adepts just go back to what they were doing.

Might ad that there are numinous places in my opinion; sacred places like Cold Mountain and perhaps I happen to had gotten to one - a book came out titled Cold Mountain when we were there about some mountains near by. But Thomas Mann in his book Magic Mountain, has a very interesting afterword in the book saying the Swiss mountains an facility he wrote about as psychic space in that novel actually was transcendent. He thought it was a joke at first then became entranced. My best friend moved from New York City to Switzerland five years ago - he is historically Swiss - and went through a remarkable psychic change as if the spirit of Nicholas von Flue spoke to him.

Image


Thu Mar 10, 2011 1:10 pm
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