UNUS MUNDUS

The UNUS MUNDUS forum of Psychovision (Remo F. Roth) invites discussion of theoretical and practical issues of a possible union of Carl Jung's depth psychology with quantum physical principles.
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 The hermaphrodite reinterpreted 
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Post The hermaphrodite reinterpreted
The hermaphrodite in alchemy is reinterpreted in terms of the
"complementarian self". I believe that it has great relevance to
alchemy. It differs from Jung's understanding of the end goal of
alchemy as the realization of the conjunct conscious and unconscious -
the integrated self. Instead the hermaphrodite, or the 'lapis
philosophorum', is the result of a largely autonomous process that
occurs relatively independent of the ego. If this is correct, the ego
need not undergo the radical transformations that Jung portrays,
involving a psychological crisis, or severe depression. The renovated
self, as such, as the wonder-working 'lapis', will influence the ego,
as an after-effect. This reinterpretation, however, does not refute
Jung's view of alchemy, but it affects the most important aspects,
namely how to view the relation with the unconscious, and the way in
which the spiritual journey is accomplished.

I added an alchemical section to my article here:
http://home7.swipnet.se/~w-73784/compself.htm#rebis

Mats Winther


Last edited by Matswin on Mon Mar 21, 2011 6:52 pm, edited 2 times in total.



Sun Mar 20, 2011 4:42 pm
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Post "The effect on consciousness is indirect"
Mats,

you say and quote:

Quote:
The alchemists themselves seemed to reason along similar lines. Jung says:
For the alchemist, the one primarily in need of redemption is not man, but the deity who is lost and sleeping in matter. Only as a secondary consideration does he hope that some benefit may accrue to himself from the transformed substance as the panacea, the medicina catholica, just as it may to the imperfect bodies, the base or "sick" metals, etc. His attention is not directed to his own salvation through God's grace, but to the liberation of God from the darkness of matter. By applying himself to this miraculous work he benefits from its salutary effects, but only incidentally (p.312).


and

Quote:
The argument that I put forward, that the alchemist's work really revolves around the transformation of the self, gives the issue a different slant. The effect on consciousness is indirect; thus participation does not demand a radical crisis of the ego, involving its dissolution in the unconscious. It tallies better with the recurrent idea of the red elixir, or the wonder-working lapis, as the end product of the process. The philosopher's stone has the capacity to tranform and heal ego and body, and create even more wonders, in its capacity of panacea. But it seems illogical to equate this 'thing' with the realized whole of the subject's personality, conscious and unconscious included. Perhaps it is better understood as the renewed and reconstituted self, capable of influencing the wholeness of personality. The self has awakened from a dormant stage and become active. It would imply that the hermaphroditic rebis, as the goal of the process, is wholly realizable, unlike the unrealizable ideal of psychic wholeness, in archetypal form, on lines of Jung.


For the first time, I believe I have experienced (understood) what you are trying to say here.
Thank you,

Ryan

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When the evening is spread out against the sky
Like a patient etherised upon a table;"
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Sun Mar 20, 2011 7:04 pm
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Dear Mats,

Sorry to butt in, but I have a few questions about this.

What is the difference between "a largely autonomous process that occurs relatively independent of the ego" and psychosis?

And how do you imagine this "indirect influence on consciousness"? Because personally I define consciousness as a direct relation with the "objects" of my consciousness, including my Self. If I am conscious of something, I relate to it directly. If I do not relate to it directly, but only through projections, for example, then I am not conscious of it (whatever "it" is). So I would say that an indirect influence on consciousness is something unconscious. Now, I personally would be wary of any "influence" that does not seek consciousness and does not want my ego's participation but on the other hand claims to be the totality of the self...

best,

Maria

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Sun Mar 20, 2011 7:42 pm
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Post "Spontaneous Nudging"
Quote:
And how do you imagine this "indirect influence on consciousness"? Because personally I define consciousness as a direct relation with the "objects" of my consciousness, including my Self. If I am conscious of something, I relate to it directly.


Maria,

I am not going to speak for mats, but I will for me.

Wouldn't the images that we experience in bci, have an indirect (a by product?)influence on the shaping of our consciousness as opposed to a willful attempt at reshaping our ego? "I must be this or that way?" Yes, we have a relationship, but isn't the relationship I suppose, what I would call a 'spontaneous nudging' of our visions on our self? I am not a master of technical jargon as you can tell, but I felt that my consciousness changes as a result of what we 'see' and experience as opposed to a conscious attitude of telling myself that I need to be a different way.

Projections of course are for me a different subject, because those I experience as those parts of myself which are 'sling-shoted' without my control, I have been getting better at recognizing when I do it, step back and say "no, that is me I am talking about".


Ryan

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Sun Mar 20, 2011 8:09 pm
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Dear Ryan,

I think we mean different things by "consciousness". For me, consciousness is not about willfullness or control. We do not really control what we become conscious of, nor "possess" what we are conscious of. Just like in buddhism, you can seek enlightenment, but the "when" or even the "if ever" does not depend on you.

The way I see it, consciousness is a willingness to relate. To let things emerge (like in BCI) and possibly (but not necessarily) interact with them.

And this was primarily my problem with Mats' argument, i.e. that he implies consciousness to be about control.

Love,

Maria

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Sun Mar 20, 2011 8:24 pm
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Post non-possession, belief and projections
Maria,

Quote:
We do not really control what we become conscious of, nor "possess" what we are conscious of.


I know what you are saying here, but I am positive I haven't experienced this yet.

Quote:
The way I see it, consciousness is a willingness to relate. To let things emerge (like in BCI) and possibly (but not necessarily) interact with them.


I am glad you said this, and I might be opening up a heep of problems here, but I am going to say it anyway. For me 'Belief' is a capacity to relate and participate. Yet, I know 'Belief' has a bad reputation here. And I am wondering perhaps you or someone else can explain why my experience of belief is so different or even perhaps wrong. Perhaps I am merely substituting the wrong word, which you chose as 'consciousness'. For me it is natural to use belief outside of a religious context because of my backround in theatre. In which, one's capacity to 'make believe' is everything.

side note, while taking a shower, I finally was able to articulate to myself what 'projection' is and I am curious how well it holds up to scrutiny:

For me as i experience it 'Projection is a reflex action of the power impulse'.

I have learned to sense when I do it because I can feel my body different, I don't know if it is a result of bci and becoming more aware of my physcial states or what, but the tensing I feel must be related to some sort of 'power pushing or tensing' which ejects the projection like a sling shot. Again, I know my form to express things aren't very good, but I am trying to articulate sensations which aren't very articulate to begin with.

Perhaps even, my inexperience with 'not possessing' consciousness perhaps even leads to my projections.

Love,

Ryan

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"Let us go then, you and I,
When the evening is spread out against the sky
Like a patient etherised upon a table;"
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Sun Mar 20, 2011 9:11 pm
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Dear Ryan,

If you like the word belief, why not. After all, words are approximate at best. And of course, anyway, my meaning of "tree" is different than yours, we cannot cut words off from the inner/outer experiences we have with them. When we hear "tree", some of us will see a huge oak tree in front of ourselves, while others will mutter "And this, our life, exempt from public haunt, finds tongues in trees, books in the running brooks, sermons in stones, and good in everything." (W.S.) And that's just a tree. Not consciousness or belief itself.

But for me, belief already has an evaluation attached to it (feeling). I believe in something that has some kind of value or at least importance to me. I do not believe in the lamp post in front of my house, but I am conscious of it.

In theatre, too, you "make believe" what is meaningful, valuable and/or important. You believe Hamlet's pain, for example, but you don't believe that the actor's shoes are antiques from Shakespeare's time - you are conscious of it that they are not - but it is utterly irrelevant to your capacity to believe and participate in Hamlet's experience - the actors could all be in t-shirts and jeans (visual types perhaps would not agree).

And, of course, you can also believe in consciousness, and you can be conscious of what you believe in. And it goes the other way round too. A lot of people do not really believe in the value of being conscious (aka consumer society, for example), and a lot of people are not conscious of what they really believe in (and spend their lives swopping their priorities with the current trends "I believe the most important thing is to be famous / have extra white teeth / looking like a 20 year old until I die", etc)

May the force be with you :)

Maria

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Mon Mar 21, 2011 9:46 am
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Post 
Maria,

Quote:
When we hear "tree", some of us will see a huge oak tree in front of ourselves, while others will mutter "And this, our life, exempt from public haunt, finds tongues in trees, books in the running brooks, sermons in stones, and good in everything." (W.S.) And that's just a tree. Not consciousness or belief itself.


When I read things such at this I am astounded at the subtlety and depth of feeling that members such as yourself feel. I know how far I am from being truly sensitive and feeling.

Quote:
the actors could all be in t-shirts and jeans (visual types perhaps would not agree).


I am a visual type and this isn't true for me. The actors could be in the finest clothes, but if there is no life happening on stage, it doesn't matter.

Quote:
A lot of people do not really believe in the value of being conscious (aka consumer society, for example)


My own consumer nature has me perplexed, and I am not sure what it is that I am projecting on to objects, perhaps I am searching for some sort of identity, as if these objects in some sense 'reflect' who I am. Of course this is false, and you can't carry mementos to the grave, needless to say it still happens and I find it such a curious phenomena.

Quote:
I believe the most important thing is to be famous / have extra white teeth / looking like a 20 year old until I die", etc)


I want just normal white teeth. :lol:

Ryan

_________________
"Let us go then, you and I,
When the evening is spread out against the sky
Like a patient etherised upon a table;"
-T.S. Eliot: The Love Song of J. Alfred Prufrock


Mon Mar 21, 2011 11:58 am
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Post 
Maria, my argument is that it's the other way round. Jung's view of
the spiritual journey demands a "confrontation with the unconscious",
as the chapter in MDR is called. This entails a dissolution of the ego
in the unconscious. As a consequence the ego reemerges as a better
approximation of the self. The process comes close to a schizophrenic
condition.

It is possible to interpret the night sea journey, and the
nigredo, in this way, i.e., as the hero's journey into chaos.
However, I argue that it can be understood as the journey of the self,
during which the effects on the ego system are secondary. When the
self goes through the sufferings of the nigredo, the ego would likely
experience "dryness" and passivity, a condition illustrated in Ps. and
Alchemy (p.275) where an alchemist meditates in nature.

The alchemist's method was to apply heat to the alembic where the
salamander dwelled, surrounded by the flames. The artifex never
entered the furnace himself, at least not deliberately, on lines of
Jung. He kept feeding the salamander, who thrived on the fiery
element.

Mats Winther


Last edited by Matswin on Mon Mar 21, 2011 4:02 pm, edited 1 time in total.



Mon Mar 21, 2011 12:35 pm
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Post Re: The hermaphrodite reinterpreted
Matswin wrote:
The hermaphrodite in alchemy is reinterpreted in terms of the "complementarian self". I believe that it has great relevance to alchemy. It differs from Jung's understanding of the end goal of alchemy as the realization of the conjunct conscious and unconscious — the integrated self. Instead the hermaphrodite, or the 'lapis philosophorum', is the result of a largely autonomous process that occurs relatively independent of the ego.


Mats,

I agree with you that the heraphrodite is not so much a symbol of the reunion of the consciousness with the unconscious, but is a deeper process. In my interpretation the hermaphrodite is the result of the (sexual) union of the inner god with the inner goddess; of the 'world spirit' with the world soul; alchemically spoken, it is the coniunctio of the king with the queen; in Daoism the union of yin and yang that leads to Dao; etc. The ego has to observe this process; however, in contrast to Jung's Active Imagination in a completely passive mood. Such an ego consciously represses thinking and argueing during the process and believes in the fact shown by quantum physics that the observation alone creates reality.

In my publication Return of the World Soul I call such a process the creation by (mere) observation; on the other hand I call Jung's Active Imagination a creation by cognition. The latter leads to creation in the mind; the former to creation in the physical world. The latter is Neoplatonic, the former is Hermetic (and thus magical). It is what happens in Body-Centered Imagination.

One can see this difference between cognition and observation very clearly in the dispute of Pauli and Jung published in Atom and Archetype. However, neither Jung nor Pauli were able to realize the introverted creation by observation. Pauli was not yet able to realize that one can adapt the quantum physical concept of creation by observation on one's own body and mind. During his whole life he 'projected' this fact into the observation of (outer) matter in quantum physics. He was not able to see that there is an inner aspect of matter and of the body, which we can observe in BCI. Instead he postulated the antineutrino, which in my opinion corresponds exactly to this inner aspect of matter and of the body. It consists of matter-psyche and thus belongs to the unus mundus. This is also why the artificial fission of the atom (in which with the radioactive beta radiation antineutrinos are produced) reaches down into the unus mundus. It seems that the latter is poisoned by fission. Perhaps with the help of BCI we can 'cleanse' it.

Remo

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'Here stands the mean uncomely stone,
Tis very cheap in price!
The more it is despised by fools,
The more loved by the wise.'
(C.G. Jung, MDR, p. 253)
WebSite: http://www.paulijungunusmundus.eu


Last edited by Remo Roth on Mon Mar 21, 2011 3:10 pm, edited 1 time in total.



Mon Mar 21, 2011 1:50 pm
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Post Anima and anima mundi
Since Jung was not yet able to distinguish the Neoplatonic and Hermetic world view, he was neither able to distinguish the Anima from the anima mundi. The Anima is the mediator between the ego and the unconscious, yes; but the anima mundi is the mediator between spirit and matter. The former helps in the process of the creation by cognition; the latter helps in the process of the creation by observation.

In Return I show this difference as following:

Image

In this way Jung's confusion is eliminated. One can distinguish processes concerning the collective unconscious from the ones in the unus mundus.

Remo

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'Here stands the mean uncomely stone,
Tis very cheap in price!
The more it is despised by fools,
The more loved by the wise.'
(C.G. Jung, MDR, p. 253)
WebSite: http://www.paulijungunusmundus.eu


Last edited by Remo Roth on Mon Mar 21, 2011 8:24 pm, edited 2 times in total.



Mon Mar 21, 2011 2:31 pm
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Post Creation by Cognition
Remo,

Quote:
The Anima is the mediator between the ego and the unconscious, yes; but the anima mundi is the mediator between spirit and matter. The former helps in the process of the creation by cognition; the latter helps in the process of the creation by observation.


Does creation by cognition, 'poison' the unus mundus as well? I suppose their are negative effects, but i was curious if you could articulate them if they do exist.

Ryan

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When the evening is spread out against the sky
Like a patient etherised upon a table;"
-T.S. Eliot: The Love Song of J. Alfred Prufrock


Mon Mar 21, 2011 5:03 pm
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Mats,

You wrote:

Quote:
The alchemist's method was to apply heat to the alembic where the salamander dwelled, surrounded by the flames. The artifex never entered the furnace himself, at least not deliberately, on lines of Jung. He kept feeding the salamander, who thrived on the fiery element.


Yes, but the alchemist is the one who heats the alembic and feeds the salamander, doesn't that make the ego a facilitator/participant of the process?

Remo, your passive observation is a way of creating - or participating in the creation of - inner and outer reality, which, I think, makes the ego something more than merely affected by the processes of "the self", no?

If a self as such exists. I mean, Mats, is there a self as such out there (I mean in here), just as is there a shadow, an anima/animus etc in itself, or are they all constantly forming and re-forming in relation to and in relationship with each other; including the ego? Can we talk about one "part" of the psyche being affected before/after/independent of the ego?

I imagine the ego as medium and mediator at the same time, so from my point of view, it is as difficult for the ego to be affected by the self after the fact as it would be to feel a severe toothache after the fact.

Maria

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Mon Mar 21, 2011 5:07 pm
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Post 
Matswin wrote:
Maria, my argument is that it's the other way round. Jung's view of
the spiritual journey demands a "confrontation with the unconscious",
as the chapter in MDR is called. This entails a dissolution of the ego
in the unconscious. As a consequence the ego reemerges as a better
approximation of the self. The process comes close to a schizophrenic
condition.

It is possible to interpret the night sea journey, and the
nigredo, in this way, i.e., as the hero's journey into chaos.
However, I argue that it can be understood as the journey of the self,
during which the effects on the ego system are secondary. When the
self goes through the sufferings of the nigredo, the ego would likely
experience "dryness" and passivity, a condition illustrated in Ps. and
Alchemy (p.275) where an alchemist meditates in nature.

The alchemist's method was to apply heat to the alembic where the
salamander dwelled, surrounded by the flames. The artifex never
entered the furnace himself, at least not deliberately, on lines of
Jung. He kept feeding the salamander, who thrived on the fiery
element.

Mats Winther


Well as far as i remember i did not choose to take the trip, not the way you would buy a plane ticket to some welcoming destination anyway. I simply knew I had no other choice, and I am convinced this is typical.
This is the only choice left. So you have two possibilities: you go with the highest resistance or your jump. In fact, for me it was a mix of both.

I know that the ego has a very specific part to play: the question is not about its destruction, but rather its transformation, its understanding of the specific and highly important part it has to play in the dynamic balance of the Tao dance. Consciousness is needed, and there is no consciousness without the ego.

This is true for unio mentalis, of course, but this is also true for unio corporalis, and I will even say that unio corporalis is not for weak egos, feable vases. The only way to have this kind of tamed and liberated ego consciousness is through the night sea journey. There is no growth without (conscious) suffering.

You see, unio corporalis asks for a strong and polished ego able to observe passively without being swept away by the energy flow of the experience. The Tikkun Remo refers to calls for this type of higher consciousness, a consciousness able to withdraw will in the Kairos and let happen.

Roger

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Fire over wood:
THE IMAGE of THE CAULDRON.
Thus the superior man consolidates his fate By making his position correct.
The fate of fire depends on wood; as long as there is wood below, the fire burns above. It is the same in human life; there is in man likewise a fate that lends power to his life. And if he succeeds in assigning the right place to life and to fate, thus bringing the two into harmony, he puts his fate on a firm footing.

I Ching #50


Mon Mar 21, 2011 5:12 pm
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Post The non-detached observer
mirapom wrote:
Remo, your passive observation is a way of creating - or participating in the creation of - inner and outer reality, which, I think, makes the ego something more than merely affected by the processes of "the self", no?


Maria,

Surely the ego is affected by the process, and how! Pauli defined the physicist or the scientist in general as 'detached observer'. His feeling function is not involved. This is why they can do such cruel things (for example in animal experiments). He also looked for the non-detached observer, did however not find him. I think that the observer in BCI is the non-detached one. I remember my incredible imaginations in 2008, in which I met Anubis, the giver of life of the deceased. It really hit me, and the result was the insight that with the help of BCI the beyond (as an aspect of the unus mundus) is provided with (constructive) energy of higher order. This seems to mean that the deceased return into our world; I think into the vegetative nervous system of specific himans.

Remo

_________________
'Here stands the mean uncomely stone,
Tis very cheap in price!
The more it is despised by fools,
The more loved by the wise.'
(C.G. Jung, MDR, p. 253)
WebSite: http://www.paulijungunusmundus.eu


Last edited by Remo Roth on Mon Mar 21, 2011 5:53 pm, edited 1 time in total.



Mon Mar 21, 2011 5:49 pm
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Post Re: Creation by Cognition
Ryan wrote:
Does creation by cognition, 'poison' the unus mundus as well? I suppose their are negative effects, but i was curious if you could articulate them if they do exist.


Ryan,

Good question! In 2008 I asked myself the same question. In my dreams a feminine figure emerged that attacked me incredibly. She corresponded to a real woman in the outer world who had done exactly the same. I decided not to fight against her -- no confrontation with the unconscious, as Jung began it in 1913 -- but just to swallow her. Then, in the aftermath always positive dreams came in the same night. It seems that in my belly this feminine figure was not able to attack me anymore.

I then interpreted this figure as my thinking function. It seems that I had to quit thinking completely and enter the belly and with this the unus mundus. This was one of my most horrible defeats in my life.

Since then my creative life -- the creation by cognition -- has changed. I experience short periods of creativity alternating with periods of void. Up and down, and up and down. Just in this moment I am again in the void. I try to accept it, but it is hard, since I think that I have yet so much to say ...

Remo

_________________
'Here stands the mean uncomely stone,
Tis very cheap in price!
The more it is despised by fools,
The more loved by the wise.'
(C.G. Jung, MDR, p. 253)
WebSite: http://www.paulijungunusmundus.eu


Mon Mar 21, 2011 6:08 pm
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Post Re: Creation by Cognition
Remo Roth wrote:
no confrontation with the unconscious, as Jung began it in 1913
Remo


I hope you noticed I did not use the word 'confrontation' in my previous post.

This expression always displeased me. Merging, rather. The only way not to be swallowed is to be forever open, loving, and in a waking state, to accompany the movements: if you are pushed you pull, if you are pulled you push... This is why fear does not help at all...

Roger

_________________
Fire over wood:
THE IMAGE of THE CAULDRON.
Thus the superior man consolidates his fate By making his position correct.
The fate of fire depends on wood; as long as there is wood below, the fire burns above. It is the same in human life; there is in man likewise a fate that lends power to his life. And if he succeeds in assigning the right place to life and to fate, thus bringing the two into harmony, he puts his fate on a firm footing.

I Ching #50


Mon Mar 21, 2011 6:24 pm
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Remo, (your image has destroyed the formatting of this thread. Could
you narrow it down?) I maintain that the spiritual and the bodily do
connect at the extremes. Sexuality has also a spiritual aspect, as
Goldberg points out in The Sacred Fire: The Story of Sex in Religion.
There are several books on this subject. Many Gnostic sects had
sexually very explicit rituals (cf. Benjamin Walker: Gnosticism).

Philosophers have always been divided over esse in re or
esse in spiritu. The "Neoplatonic Jung", I maintain, is the
Jung whose philosophical credo is esse in anima. Emancipation
according to the trinitarian principle means that one moves on to the
realm of the spiritual, that somehow includes the material/bodily. In
Pauli's vision of the world-clock the upper half could signify the
spiritual realm, and the lower half the bodily/material.

My argument is that focusing on the essence of the bodily
implies focusing on an aspect of spirit, since matter, as such, is
unknown. The reverse is also true. The very essence of the spiritual
is probably material.

Maria, I argue just this, that the ego participates indirectly. Great
artists have assistants who prepare the canvases, etc. The artist is
the self and the assistant is the ego. But is the assistant involved
in the creation of the great work of art? It is a matter of
definition.

Mats


Mon Mar 21, 2011 6:50 pm
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Mats,

Quote:
Maria, I argue just this, that the ego participates indirectly. Great
artists have assistants who prepare the canvases, etc. The artist is
the self and the assistant is the ego. But is the assistant involved
in the creation of the great work of art? It is a matter of
definition.


If the artist is the self and the ego is the assistant, what is the work of art?

If the self is an archetype, isn't it its interaction with the ego that makes it unique? Was this poem written by Denise Levertov's self or ego?

Quote:
Living

The fire in leaf and grass
so green it seems
each summer the last summer.

The wind blowing, the leaves
shivering in the sun,
each day the last day.

A red salamander
so cold and so
easy to catch, dreamily

moves his delicate feet
and long tail. I hold
my hand open for him to go.

Each minute the last minute.



Maria

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Quote:
This is the only choice left. So you have two possibilities: you go with the highest resistance or you jump.


Well, there is another possibility of course: you can pretend you did not hear the call, find a lot of very well constructed reasons not to acknowledge it, and try to run away.

Jung, who was a great man, put this inscription at the front of his door: 'Vocatus atque non vocatus, deus aderit' (Whether called or not the deity is present).

Inflation is the consequence of such a shying away; the only problem is that inflation can kill. (Jung gives enough examples of that). So what has to be feared the most?

With love

Roger

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Fire over wood:
THE IMAGE of THE CAULDRON.
Thus the superior man consolidates his fate By making his position correct.
The fate of fire depends on wood; as long as there is wood below, the fire burns above. It is the same in human life; there is in man likewise a fate that lends power to his life. And if he succeeds in assigning the right place to life and to fate, thus bringing the two into harmony, he puts his fate on a firm footing.

I Ching #50


Mon Mar 21, 2011 7:21 pm
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Post Re: Creation by Cognition
Remo Roth wrote:
Since then my creative life -- the creation by cognition -- has changed. I experience short periods of creativity alternating with periods of void. Up and down, and up and down. Just in this moment I am again in the void. I try to accept it, but it is hard, since I think that I have yet so much to say ...

Remo


Cher Remo,

I surely understand the frustration generated.

i would like to point out something though: creativity (as the fruit of creatio perpetua) is not where we think it is, or would like it to be but where it happens through us when we are open.

Acceptance of the state you describe (and I know of) then becomes also a vector of creativity.

funny no?

Best

Roger

_________________
Fire over wood:
THE IMAGE of THE CAULDRON.
Thus the superior man consolidates his fate By making his position correct.
The fate of fire depends on wood; as long as there is wood below, the fire burns above. It is the same in human life; there is in man likewise a fate that lends power to his life. And if he succeeds in assigning the right place to life and to fate, thus bringing the two into harmony, he puts his fate on a firm footing.

I Ching #50


Mon Mar 21, 2011 7:44 pm
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Maria, some say that the objective of the hermetic art is to transmute
the imperfect material state into a subtle body, i.e. a body
that is at the same time spirit. The Chinese alchemists call it the
"diamond body". It is reminiscent of the Pauline notion: "It is sown a
natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body,
and there is a spiritual body" (1Cor 15:44). This is the "glorious
body", which is very relevant to theology. It is the body of the
resurrection, that the alchemists are creating in advance. The
alchemists were radical enough, when they claimed that the ego can
initiate the process that creates the Resurrection Body.

Mats


Mon Mar 21, 2011 7:46 pm
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Post 
Matswin wrote:
Remo, (your image has destroyed the formatting of this thread. Could
you narrow it down?)


Mats,

we had this trouble before. I sized it down and hope that the formating is now better. It seems that not all members have this problem. I do not know why.

Remo

PS: I sized the image down before, already twice.

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'Here stands the mean uncomely stone,
Tis very cheap in price!
The more it is despised by fools,
The more loved by the wise.'
(C.G. Jung, MDR, p. 253)
WebSite: http://www.paulijungunusmundus.eu


Mon Mar 21, 2011 8:28 pm
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Post Re: Creation by Cognition
Roger Faglin wrote:
I hope you noticed I did not use the word 'confrontation' in my previous post.
This expression always displeased me. Merging, rather. The only way not to be swallowed is to be forever open, loving, and in a waking state, to accompany the movements: if you are pushed you pull, if you are pulled you push... This is why fear does not help at all...


Yes, Roger. Your dream about the two spiders with which we began this forum has shown me that merging is meant.

Remo

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'Here stands the mean uncomely stone,
Tis very cheap in price!
The more it is despised by fools,
The more loved by the wise.'
(C.G. Jung, MDR, p. 253)
WebSite: http://www.paulijungunusmundus.eu


Tue Mar 22, 2011 4:30 am
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Post Association
Maria,

mirapom wrote:
If you like the word belief, why not. After all, words are approximate at best. And of course, anyway, my meaning of "tree" is different than yours, we cannot cut words off from the inner/outer experiences we have with them. When we hear "tree", some of us will see a huge oak tree in front of ourselves, while others will mutter "And this, our life, exempt from public haunt, finds tongues in trees, books in the running brooks, sermons in stones, and good in everything." (W.S.) And that's just a tree. Not consciousness or belief itself.


This is why the process of association is so important in dream interpretation. When my clients associate I always associate with them. In this way I delimit from their dream and do not project too much. It seems that Jungians forget this important delimitation more and more.

Remo

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'Here stands the mean uncomely stone,
Tis very cheap in price!
The more it is despised by fools,
The more loved by the wise.'
(C.G. Jung, MDR, p. 253)
WebSite: http://www.paulijungunusmundus.eu


Tue Mar 22, 2011 4:38 am
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Dear All,

This is what I am wondering about do you think it is possible that any kind of process can be going on in the psyche without the other parts being touched immediately (including the ego)?

Is it possible to denote such a complex process as creating the diamond body to (mainly) one aspect of the psyche, or does it involve the intricate dance of the totality of the person, including the ego and the physical body? Do these disctinctions, between self, anima/animus, ego, and body, etc, refer to actual and distinct entities in themselves, or are these metaphorical distinctions that we make during the mental process of trying to understand?

Because if I understand Mats correctly, what he implies is that the self goes through "a largely autonomous process".

Maria

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Tue Mar 22, 2011 8:23 am
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Post 
Matswin wrote:
However, I argue that it can be understood as the journey of the self,
during which the effects on the ego system are secondary. When the
self goes through the sufferings of the nigredo, the ego would likely
experience "dryness" and passivity, a condition illustrated in Ps. and
Alchemy (p.275) where an alchemist meditates in nature.

Mats Winther


The self needs the ego to 'experience' suffering. And only when suffering becomes conscious and accepted can the creative process of individuation unfold.

'Dryness' and 'passivity' is what you experience when, after a first shaking encounter (whatever the form) 'god' seems to have abandonned you. You want him, and the more you do, the less he appears. This belongs to the taming of the ego paradigm. Something you find in Chinese mysticism as 'the taming of the bull', for instance.

It's all about finding the proper balance/attitude.

This phenomenology belongs to the first part of the opus, unio mentalis.

Roger

_________________
Fire over wood:
THE IMAGE of THE CAULDRON.
Thus the superior man consolidates his fate By making his position correct.
The fate of fire depends on wood; as long as there is wood below, the fire burns above. It is the same in human life; there is in man likewise a fate that lends power to his life. And if he succeeds in assigning the right place to life and to fate, thus bringing the two into harmony, he puts his fate on a firm footing.

I Ching #50


Tue Mar 22, 2011 8:48 am
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Post 'Nothing can hurt me now' (C.G. Jung)
mirapom wrote:
Because if I understand Mats correctly, what he implies is that the self goes through "a largely autonomous process".


Maria,

By chance I am reading just now Shamdasani's comment on the Red Book. There, p. 216, it reads re Active Imagination:

Quote:
Now I learn to act its drama as well as the drama of the outer life & so nothing ca hurt me now."


Just before he says:

Quote:
When I first began to do this [A.I.] I saw landscapes. Then I learned how to put myself into the landscape, and the figures would talk to me and I would answer them...People said that he has an artistic temperament. But it was only that my unconscious was swaying me.


Here we see that Jung wanted to dominate the unconscious with the help of his will. (And in this moment he became causal!) We know, however, that in his youth he suffered fainting spells. Also these he learned to dominate with the help of his will. Perhaps this was his fate, but it is not mine.

My fate is it to accept conscious suffering. Then, the process in the unconscious is not at all autonomous. The process touches the ego, lets it suffer, and in this way changes it.

As I wrote some time ago, also in MC we find this tendency in Jung. In Holy Wedding I am dealing with it in connection with the god Osiris, to me a symbol of the Eros Self:

Quote:
5.5.6 Osiris as the symbol of the Eros ego/Eros Self bipolarity and of Body Centered Imagination

The motif of the dissolution leads us back to Chapter 4. In section 4.3.2 and 4.4.1 I dealt with the motif of the Monocolus/Osiris in Carl Jung’s late work Mysterium Coniunctionis. It is the part of the book, in which he reduces Gerardus Dorneus’ unio corporalis to the unio mentalis. The Monocolus is a symbol equivalent to the sun descending into the earth and then is called Osiris. There the golden sun becomes completely black, the so-called sol niger, the “black Osiris or Ethiopian,” or “Moor.” It is especially the head of Osiris which turns black, and is “boiled in a pot.” Osiris has to be decapitated and becomes like this an ithyphallic god, which Christianity interpreted as the devil.

In this state of blackness “the sun is surrounded with the anima media natura,” the world soul. In Jung’s interpretation this phase represents “a state of incubation and pregnancy.” Then, however, the strange interpretation follows, in which he says that the beheading is “an emancipation of the cognition,” obviously of the thinking function. This means that the decapitation becomes a symbol of “the separation of the ‘understanding’ from the ‘great suffering and grief.” This “sublimation” is then interpreted as “the unio mentalis, and the “overcoming of the body.” I concluded that in this way conscious suffering is substituted by thinking.

We realize now that the root for the above interpretation of the Monocolus, of Osiris and the sol niger lies exactly in Jung’s mentality to repress the conscious suffering at the separation from Sabina and instead to write the book about the sun-hero. Thinking replaces the “great suffering and grief,” and it is obvious that exactly this mentality led to the identification of the psychiatrist with the Neoplatonic world view. Together with his unipolar definition of the libido term as mere spirit-psyche this is also the reason why the psychiatrist reduces the matter-psyche, the anima mundi, to the feminine spirit-psyche, the anima . As he writes in Analytical Psychology, it was exactly during this time that he developed his concepts of the anima and of Active Imagination. His Neoplatonic reduction prevented him from discovering the corporeal aspect of the unio corporalis. Further, since quantum physics was not yet invented, he neither had a possibility to realize the archetype of the singular acausal quantum leap observable in one’s own body. As an effect of this inability neither the idea of a transformation process between spirit-psyche and matter psyche, what I call the twin process, was in his reach. Without these tools it was however unable to develop a body-centered imagination method based on the psychophysical quantum leap.


To me this is the limitation of Jung's depth psychology. It is a psychology for thinking types, and emotions and feelings are sublimated to thoughts. This is perhaps why I always felt such an incredible cold in the Zurich Jung-Institute. This cold corresponded to Jung's lovers, especially to Toni Wolff and Maria Moltzer.

Remo

_________________
'Here stands the mean uncomely stone,
Tis very cheap in price!
The more it is despised by fools,
The more loved by the wise.'
(C.G. Jung, MDR, p. 253)
WebSite: http://www.paulijungunusmundus.eu


Last edited by Remo Roth on Tue Mar 22, 2011 9:53 am, edited 1 time in total.



Tue Mar 22, 2011 9:49 am
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Roger, the spiritual person must go through suffering because he is a social recluse. His sufferings depend on the circumstances of life, and he need not go through a next to schizophrenic condition, when the ego is dissolved in an overwhelming experience of the self. I challenge the Jungian notion that a direct conscious confrontation is always imperative when integrating the unconscious. I think that consciousness, under subtle influence of a slow unconscious "fermentation process", can gradually grow to maturity.

Mats


Tue Mar 22, 2011 9:52 am
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Post 
Matswin wrote:
Roger, the spiritual person must go through suffering because he is a social recluse. His sufferings depend on the circumstances of life, and he need not go through a next to schizophrenic condition, when the ego is dissolved in an overwhelming experience of the self.


Of course. There are however also humans who are forced to suffering by inner forces. How about them?

Remo

_________________
'Here stands the mean uncomely stone,
Tis very cheap in price!
The more it is despised by fools,
The more loved by the wise.'
(C.G. Jung, MDR, p. 253)
WebSite: http://www.paulijungunusmundus.eu


Tue Mar 22, 2011 9:56 am
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Remo, I don't know if people suffering from some form of schizophrenia are capable of the spiritual path. But the notion of the complementary way allows an alternative way to the Jungian path of confrontation with the unconscious. Trinitarian spirituality, in some form, could be relevant to them. I suggest that your approach is really a trinitarian, albeit bodily, spiritual focus, influenced by Pauli's wish to retain the number 3. Trinitarian spirituality has a bodily/material aspect, too, I believe, if the argument in my complementarian self article is correct.

Mats


Last edited by Matswin on Tue Mar 22, 2011 1:55 pm, edited 1 time in total.



Tue Mar 22, 2011 10:17 am
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Dear Remo,


I think that will is only one aspect of the ego, let's say one of the balls the ego-juggler is juggling with, but will is not the ego itself. Just like our bodies go through different phases, so does our ego. It is another issue that the current worldview in the West only recognizes the teenage ego as a valid ego. But I don't think that the ego is limited to its teenage phase of will, expansion, power, etc, just like the life of the body is not limited to the child rearing age.

I see the diminshment of the ego as a process that is just as inherent in and internal to the ego's development as it is "external". Which aspect comes to the fore, how much the ego is following its own cycle when it diminshes or how much it is pushed or diminished by other aspects of the personality or more or less external events, I think, is always a unique combination.

What do you think?

love,

Maria

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Tue Mar 22, 2011 10:35 am
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Post Twin Process
Quote:
His Neoplatonic reduction prevented him from discovering the corporeal aspect of the unio corporalis. Further, since quantum physics was not yet invented, he neither had a possibility to realize the archetype of the singular acausal quantum leap observable in one’s own body. As an effect of this inability neither the idea of a transformation process between spirit-psyche and matter psyche, what I call the twin process, was in his reach. Without these tools it was however unable to develop a body-centered imagination method based on the psychophysical quantum leap.


I've been looking at Pauli's dreams in Psychology and Alchemy and I was deeply impressed by a rather small detail. In two dreams he dreams of people allowing themselves to be bit on the calf and in one dream he himself is bit on the calf.

Here in Spain, the calves are called, gemelos, i.e., twins.

It is my own association but I felt it important as well.

Image

Ryan

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Like a patient etherised upon a table;"
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Tue Mar 22, 2011 1:09 pm
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Post 
Matswin wrote:
Remo, I don't know if people suffering from some form of schizophrenia are capable of the spiritual path.


The trouble is that we do not exactly know what schizophrenia is. We cannot clearly differentiate it from a spiritual crisis. Sure is that in the latter case the ego is not swallowed by the 'unconscious' but is still able to react on its phenomena. Be it as in the case of Jung's with will power and verbal arguments, be it by accepting the suffering. The latter is also the attitude of Buddhist dream meditation: one lets oneself consciously swallow by the demonic forces. Then they change and become positive.

I did not see such a reaction in Jung's life. He always fought against these evil forces. Perhaps he was not strong enough to let himself drown into the deepest layers of the 'unconscious'. This would also explain the dream with his father, in which he cannot bring the front completely down to earth.

Remo

_________________
'Here stands the mean uncomely stone,
Tis very cheap in price!
The more it is despised by fools,
The more loved by the wise.'
(C.G. Jung, MDR, p. 253)
WebSite: http://www.paulijungunusmundus.eu


Tue Mar 22, 2011 1:10 pm
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