UNUS MUNDUS

The UNUS MUNDUS forum of Psychovision (Remo F. Roth) invites discussion of theoretical and practical issues of a possible union of Carl Jung's depth psychology with quantum physical principles.
(All posts are the property of their respective authors)
View unanswered posts | View active topics It is currently Thu Nov 23, 2017 11:10 pm



 [ 67 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Reply to topic
 The hermaphrodite reinterpreted 
Author Message
Founder
User avatar

Joined: Tue Jul 05, 2005 7:25 pm
Posts: 2657
Location: Zurich, Switzerland
Post 
Mats,

Matswin wrote:
Trinitarian spirituality, in some form, could be relevant to them. I suggest that your approach is really a trinitarian, albeit bodily, spiritual focus, influenced by Pauli's wish to retain the number 3. Trinitarian spirituality has a bodily/material aspect, too, I believe, if the argument in my complementarian self article is correct.


Pauli was convinced that the 'trinitarian consciousness' was the consciousness of the physicist and scientist, ie, what he called the detached observer. He looked for a 'quaternarian researcher' who was not detached. Further, he dreamt a lot of what he called the 'anti-trinity', the trinity pointing to below. Together with the 'trinity' this gives the Seal of Solomon or Star of David. This was Pauli's God-image, and not the trinity and neither quaternity.

If we interpret '3' or 'trinity' as energy -- energy needs always three elements to be defined -- we get my hypothesis of spirit-psyche and matter-psyche; where spirit-psyche is separated in two different ones; outer spirit-psyche as physical/chemical energy, and inner spirit-psyche as Jung's objective psychic energy.

Pauli's dreams show further that the Seal always leads to the quaternity. This is also demonstrated in the 'denarius' Ryan has just posted. His body is 2x3, and in his hands he holds the (3+1)-quaternity; I think that this is space-time, and space-time belongs to the Logos ego. Thus, if we can let us fall into the world of 2x3, in my interpretation the unus mundus, we can reach a new quaternity, i.e. a 'new space-time'. Perhaps the latter corresponds to the incarnation of new living matter in our world (out of the u.m.).

Remo

_________________
'Here stands the mean uncomely stone,
Tis very cheap in price!
The more it is despised by fools,
The more loved by the wise.'
(C.G. Jung, MDR, p. 253)
WebSite: http://www.paulijungunusmundus.eu


Tue Mar 22, 2011 1:21 pm
Profile WWW
Founder
User avatar

Joined: Tue Jul 05, 2005 7:25 pm
Posts: 2657
Location: Zurich, Switzerland
Post 
mirapom wrote:
Dear Remo,


I think that will is only one aspect of the ego, let's say one of the balls the ego-juggler is juggling with, but will is not the ego itself. Just like our bodies go through different phases, so does our ego. It is another issue that the current worldview in the West only recognizes the teenage ego as a valid ego. But I don't think that the ego is limited to its teenage phase of will, expansion, power, etc, just like the life of the body is not limited to the child rearing age.

I see the diminshment of the ego as a process that is just as inherent in and internal to the ego's development as it is "external". Which aspect comes to the fore, how much the ego is following its own cycle when it diminshes or how much it is pushed or diminished by other aspects of the personality or more or less external events, I think, is always a unique combination.

What do you think?

love,

Maria


Maria, I think what you describe has much to do with the development to what I call the Eros ego. To Jung and most psychiatrists this is not an ego but the 'abaissement du niveau mental', the “slackening of the tensity of consciousness”. This shows that in fact -- though Jung defined different possibilities of consciousness in Psychological Types -- in fact he remained in the old-fashioned definition of consciousness as the one of the thinking/sensation type. I never have understood that he did not see this contradiction. But there are others that he did not see.

Remo

PS: And now see how he always tried to prevent this slackening -- for example by verbalizing the contents of the 'unconscious'. Even Shamdasani says that Jung's A.I. was verbal.

_________________
'Here stands the mean uncomely stone,
Tis very cheap in price!
The more it is despised by fools,
The more loved by the wise.'
(C.G. Jung, MDR, p. 253)
WebSite: http://www.paulijungunusmundus.eu


Tue Mar 22, 2011 1:28 pm
Profile WWW
Founder
User avatar

Joined: Tue Jul 05, 2005 7:25 pm
Posts: 2657
Location: Zurich, Switzerland
Post Shamdasani about A.I. being verbal
I would like now to quote of Shamdasani's comment on the Red Book:

P. 209:

Quote:
'It is exactly as if a dialogue were taking place between two human beings [Shamdasani quotes from CW 8, §186]. This dialogue led to the creation of the transcendent function, which resulted in a widening of consciousness. This depiction of inner dialogues and the means of evoking fantasies in a waking state represents Jung's own undertaking in the Black Books. The interplay of creative formulation and understanding corresponds to Jung's work in Liber Novus.


Thus, it is obvious that Jung's A.I. consisted in a verbal dialogue.

P. 200:

Quote:
These fantasies may be understood as a type of dramatized thinking in pictorial form.


Though in p. 209 Shamdasani describes other methods of 'A.I.', it is decisive that Jung's own method was verbal. As a psychotherapist he seems to have realized that other people can come close to the 'unconscios' for example by painting, but to him it was the verbal dialogue.

Remo

_________________
'Here stands the mean uncomely stone,
Tis very cheap in price!
The more it is despised by fools,
The more loved by the wise.'
(C.G. Jung, MDR, p. 253)
WebSite: http://www.paulijungunusmundus.eu


Last edited by Remo Roth on Tue Mar 22, 2011 2:03 pm, edited 1 time in total.



Tue Mar 22, 2011 2:02 pm
Profile WWW
User avatar

Joined: Sun Apr 01, 2007 10:55 am
Posts: 262
Location: Stockholm, Sweden
Post 
Remo, although it is true that Pauli was influenced by Jung's enmity against the number 3, nevertheless he wrote to von Franz: "Every correct solution (i.e., that corresponds to nature) must contain the 4 as well as the 3. I found myself in an apparently no-way-out situation: 'I was cornered', as the Americans say."

Lindorff says that "Pauli had the intuitive feeling that the 3-4 problem could be solved only by living the 3 and the 4 simultaneously - in other words, by relating to the dynamic aspect of the self" (Lindorff, Pauli and Jung, pp.185-87).

Mats


Tue Mar 22, 2011 2:03 pm
Profile WWW

Joined: Tue Nov 09, 2010 1:06 pm
Posts: 106
Images: 0
Location: New York
Post 
Remo Roth wrote:
Matswin wrote:
Roger, the spiritual person must go through suffering because he is a social recluse. His sufferings depend on the circumstances of life, and he need not go through a next to schizophrenic condition, when the ego is dissolved in an overwhelming experience of the self.


Of course. There are however also humans who are forced to suffering by inner forces. How about them?

Remo



Remo, Mats and all -

(never sure what to say or not say.....but...)

Speaking for myself, it is not one or the other. A spiritual person like myself may not have been a social recluse, but it feels like there is a level of .... information (maybe many levels)... in the pre-conscious, subconscious and unconscious, subtly (but oh so consistenly) at work but mostly hidden until some confluence of an inner and outer circumstance happens, and a process is triggered. All previously held notions are called into question, and the state of being is totally overwhelming and totally choiceless. My guess is it falls in the category of 'acausal' (choiceless), which takes it out of the potential praise/blame area of the grasping ego. Historically, I imagine religiosity would have offered a panacea for the temptations to pride and/or shame, all in the attempt to regain a sense of 'control' in the face of invasive "magic". To supplicate the inner perception of God in order to regain "favor". (I am not anti-religious).

Also - it might have been so much easier to collapse into some pathology (such as schizophrenia), to take on the passive disempowered identity as a "sick person". But this was/is not the truth and I knew it. No matter how outrageous the 'display' before (and behind) my eyes. Or how tired and out of balance my basic functioning is/was on some days. No way out but through -

This reminds me of Roger's mention of the combination of resistance and leaping. In my case leaping (because the building is on fire!) and resistance, because giving up critical intelligence altogether seems ..... not so intelligent. Taking notes on the way down, you might say. Testing out theories.

All of this is also why Remo's notion of "neutral language" is so interesting to me. It just is what it is - these currents of energy doing what they do. And who is there to "blame"? But maybe people to be helped. I don't know what's in store for our world.

As I re-read this - the burning building reminds me of The Tower card in Tarot. Number XVI. I know very little about the Tarot, but a few years ago a Jungian Astrologer did a reading for me and the seminal card was The Star - XVII. When I just looked it up - the Devil card is XV. So there's the suggestion of a narrative there.

beth

p.s. If anything I've said here is inappropriate for public eyes, please let me know and I will retract it.


Tue Mar 22, 2011 3:04 pm
Profile Personal album
Site Admin
User avatar

Joined: Wed Jul 06, 2005 8:06 am
Posts: 717
Images: 1
Location: France
Post 
beth wrote:

p.s. If anything I've said here is inappropriate for public eyes, please let me know and I will retract it.


Thank you Beth. there is nothing inappropriate here, quite the contrary. Thank you for sharing. It matters.

With love

Roger

_________________
Fire over wood:
THE IMAGE of THE CAULDRON.
Thus the superior man consolidates his fate By making his position correct.
The fate of fire depends on wood; as long as there is wood below, the fire burns above. It is the same in human life; there is in man likewise a fate that lends power to his life. And if he succeeds in assigning the right place to life and to fate, thus bringing the two into harmony, he puts his fate on a firm footing.

I Ching #50


Tue Mar 22, 2011 4:44 pm
Profile Personal album
User avatar

Joined: Sun Jul 23, 2006 9:32 am
Posts: 827
Images: 1
Location: Virginia, USA
Post Are Schizophrenics Perceiving Other Worlds?
Hello to All, I was checking the forum this morning after I got up about 10 AM my time. I saw the comments about schizophrenia. Since I met my husband in 1991, moved in with him to our condo in 1993, and married him in 1995 -- I have had a total of 20 years experience daily with his "paranoid delusions" that derive mostly from "auditory hallucinations". I was going to comment about how his condition is NOT what any of us would be likely to perceive as a step forward on the way to Enlightenment. It is a living hell for him and sometimes almost unbearable for me to have to deal with.

I was going to quote from Joseph Campbell about how the schizophrenic drowns in the realms where the mystic swims... although from my firsthand observations, I do not think that it is quite that simple a distinction. I wanted to look up some ideas about it online perhaps at other forums. I borrowed the title for this post from one of those sources. While I was doing some reading of posts and advice from others about distinguishing between psychiatric illness and spiritual emergency symptoms, my husband was across the room, from where I am in our living room, at our dining table looking at things on his computer.

Suddenly he said he heard a voice say, putsch... and then he began talking about my brother Jack who had written a book about the Beer Hall Putsch that was a major event in the rise of Hitler in Germany. I was totally stunned because last night I got one of those unusual spam messages that was supposedly sent by someone with the name Jackson. That name Jackson was the middle name of my father, my eldest half-brother, and my older brother -- all three now deceased. Jack the half-brother is the one... (when I asked Lee some time ago what others are with him in the Beyond that I would know)... who made his identity known by my hearing a tune that turned out to be Lili Marlene, that Jack picked up in the US military overseas and used to whistle out loud a lot when he came back home from Europe after World War II.

That is all for now. Suzanne

_________________
"Only if a man dares to entrust himself again to the depth of his origin can he reach the height for which he was destined." Karlfried Graf Durckheim


Tue Mar 22, 2011 6:53 pm
Profile Personal album
Founder
User avatar

Joined: Tue Jul 05, 2005 7:25 pm
Posts: 2657
Location: Zurich, Switzerland
Post The fourth is the double 'trinity'
Matswin wrote:
Remo, although it is true that Pauli was influenced by Jung's enmity against the number 3, nevertheless he wrote to von Franz: "Every correct solution (i.e., that corresponds to nature) must contain the 4 as well as the 3. I found myself in an apparently no-way-out situation: 'I was cornered', as the Americans say."

Lindorff says that "Pauli had the intuitive feeling that the 3-4 problem could be solved only by living the 3 and the 4 simultaneously - in other words, by relating to the dynamic aspect of the self" (Lindorff, Pauli and Jung, pp.185-87).


Mats,

The trouble is that the fourth is not equal to number 4. At least, if my dreams tell me the truth. I had two very abstract dreams that showed me the following (Quotes from Return of the World Soul, Part II):

Quote:
Quote:
Dream of the development of the first six whole numbers, February 19th, 1986:

A voice tells me: “The real series of natural numbers is not 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, but 1, 2, 3 > 6, 5, 4.”



On August 26th, 1988 the above dream was followed by a second:

Quote:
Dream of the solution to the problem of five and six which has to precede the solution to the problem of the third and the fourth:

In the dream I instinctively know the following: For the solution of the problem of the transition from the third to the fourth, the solution of the enigma of the Axiom of Maria Prophetissa, it is first necessary to solve the problem of five and six. This statement is equivalent to the following series of whole numbers: 1, 2, 3, 6, 5, 4


These two dreams show in a nucleus the grave problem and its solution presented in my book: The third is the energy term, which however first has to be extended to the six. Thus the fourth becomes two times three, the double-triadic Seal of Solomon, the bipolar energy term. Only then a development becomes possible, in which the quintessence as the fifth is reached. This development leads into the sixth, which is a renewed quaternity.

Of course, the two dreams speak of exactly the same problem and its solution, as does Pauli’s visual-auditive experience [of the Chinese woman, the Seal of Solomon and the square]. They tell us first that the energy term has to be bipolar. Only like this the quintessence or the red tincture can be produced, which corresponds to the singular acausal quantum leap of the twin process. This acausal, “irrational” exchange of attributes eventually leads into a new quaternity, the “stable product” of the acausal process. Shown is nothing other than what I call the singular psychophysical radioactive decay which in a deeply introverted state the Eros ego has to observe.

In a modern language we can interpret the quaternity as Einstein’s spacetime. Obviously, in singular acausal quantum leaps, represented as the quintessence in Pauli’s dream, “a new spacetime” is created, which means that the quality of spacetime is changed. Like this Jung’s formula in Aion becomes in fact true, with the exception that the transition from one quaternity to the other is not a causal process, as thought of by Carl Jung, but acausal – the consciously observed singular acausal quantum leap.


Remo

_________________
'Here stands the mean uncomely stone,
Tis very cheap in price!
The more it is despised by fools,
The more loved by the wise.'
(C.G. Jung, MDR, p. 253)
WebSite: http://www.paulijungunusmundus.eu


Wed Mar 23, 2011 7:48 am
Profile WWW
Founder
User avatar

Joined: Tue Jul 05, 2005 7:25 pm
Posts: 2657
Location: Zurich, Switzerland
Post Creatio continua and Creatio ex nihilo
Matswin wrote:
Remo, although it is true that Pauli was influenced by Jung's enmity against the number 3, nevertheless he wrote to von Franz: "Every correct solution (i.e., that corresponds to nature) must contain the 4 as well as the 3. I found myself in an apparently no-way-out situation: 'I was cornered', as the Americans say."

Lindorff says that "Pauli had the intuitive feeling that the 3-4 problem could be solved only by living the 3 and the 4 simultaneously - in other words, by relating to the dynamic aspect of the self" (Lindorff, Pauli and Jung, pp.185-87).

Mats


We can thus translate Pauli's statement as follows:

Every correct solution that corresponds to true nature must contain the bipolarity of the energy term (in contrast to physics and Jung's depth psychology) as well as the physical/depth psychological energy term. Implicitely this means that (in a mythological language) the world soul has the capactiy of self-fertilization. In a modern language this means that nature does not only develop causally, but also with the help of acausal quantum leaps. The latter natural science does not accept. But it corresponds to what Medieval theology called the creatio continua, complementary to the creatio ex nihilo, God's 'big bang' in Genesis.

Remo

PS: Later I dreamt that I had received the Nobel award for this insight ... :D

_________________
'Here stands the mean uncomely stone,
Tis very cheap in price!
The more it is despised by fools,
The more loved by the wise.'
(C.G. Jung, MDR, p. 253)
WebSite: http://www.paulijungunusmundus.eu


Wed Mar 23, 2011 7:52 am
Profile WWW
User avatar

Joined: Sun Apr 01, 2007 10:55 am
Posts: 262
Location: Stockholm, Sweden
Post 
That is an interesting number series. It is curious how fond the dream function is of the natural numbers.

It seems like your dreams grapple with the number 4, too. Traditional Chinese always count like this: 1, 2, 3, (hmm), 5,... This is because they don't want to mention the 4. It brings bad luck.

It seems that dreams on this theme, namely of not wanting to take the 4th step, are common. For instance, I once dreamt that the elevator got stuck between the third and fourth floor.

Mats


Wed Mar 23, 2011 8:22 am
Profile WWW
Founder
User avatar

Joined: Tue Jul 05, 2005 7:25 pm
Posts: 2657
Location: Zurich, Switzerland
Post 
Matswin wrote:
That is an interesting number series. It is curious how fond the dream function is of the natural numbers.
It seems like your dreams grapple with the number 4, too. Traditional Chinese always count like this: 1, 2, 3, (hmm), 5,... This is because they don't want to mention the 4. It brings bad luck.


This is interesting. However, in my case #4 is eventually reached.

Remo

_________________
'Here stands the mean uncomely stone,
Tis very cheap in price!
The more it is despised by fools,
The more loved by the wise.'
(C.G. Jung, MDR, p. 253)
WebSite: http://www.paulijungunusmundus.eu


Wed Mar 23, 2011 8:43 am
Profile WWW
Founder
User avatar

Joined: Tue Jul 05, 2005 7:25 pm
Posts: 2657
Location: Zurich, Switzerland
Post Anti-Christ and Eros as Antidote to Radioactivity
Further, if one takes Jesus Christ as an aspect of the Self, one has also to include the anti-Christ since this fantasy began to ascend after the first half of the Christian eon. The destructive aspect of the anti-Christ is what happens today in Fukushima (and 25 years ago in Chernobyl). Mankind has liberated the real anti-Christ -- artificial radioactivity.

The only antidote against this destructive anti-Christ I see in the acceptance of the above mentioned possibility of the creatio continua, the acausal creation that can happen everywhere and anytime. It is observable in Body-Centered Imagination in which the self-fertility of the world soul is accepted. Thus, by mere observation one helps the world soul in creating the 'children' she really wants to give birth to. This way the 'radioactive children' that she doesn't want are somehow extinguished. To me it seems that Pauli's dreams about the role of the Eros in the influencing of future history mean this. (To the latter see Atom and Archetype, letters [16P] and [18P].)

Remo

_________________
'Here stands the mean uncomely stone,
Tis very cheap in price!
The more it is despised by fools,
The more loved by the wise.'
(C.G. Jung, MDR, p. 253)
WebSite: http://www.paulijungunusmundus.eu


Wed Mar 23, 2011 2:19 pm
Profile WWW

Joined: Thu May 04, 2006 8:31 pm
Posts: 745
Location: Canary Islands
Post Christ, Lucifer, Lightbringers
Remo,

I actually looked into the Christ, Lucifer parrellel. Because i was curious where the 'myth' of Lucifer falling to hell came from.

The best that I could find, is really they share an identity, for they both in the bible are referred to as the 'morning star'.

Perhaps not in Christian practice, but I experience the Christ, Devil relationship as a shared identity, for they are both 'light bringers'.

Image

Image

Ryan

_________________
"Let us go then, you and I,
When the evening is spread out against the sky
Like a patient etherised upon a table;"
-T.S. Eliot: The Love Song of J. Alfred Prufrock


Wed Mar 23, 2011 2:48 pm
Profile

Joined: Thu May 04, 2006 8:31 pm
Posts: 745
Location: Canary Islands
Post the still living myth of our culture
Amplifying a bit,

Quote:
Jung says, "The dechristianization of our world, the Luciferian development of science and technology, and the frightful material and moral destruction left behind by the second World War have been compared more than once with the eschatological events foretold in the New Testament. These as we know, are concerned with the coming of the Antichrist...

Why-my reader will ask-do I discourse here upon Christ and his adversary, the Antichrist? Our discourse brings us to Christ, because he is the still living myth of our culture. He is our culture hero, who, regardless of his historical existence, embodies the myth of the divine Primordial Man, the mystic Adam."

From Christ a Symbol of the Self, paragraphs 68 and 69


If Christ is 'the still living myth of our culture' and the world is experiencing a 'Luciferian development of science and technology', ect. Wouldn't one make a relation between the two? That we are in some sense seeing the results of this 'myth'?

Too, I realized that if Christ is the 'mystic Adam', didn't Lucifer suffer the same fall from paradise?

Ryan

_________________
"Let us go then, you and I,
When the evening is spread out against the sky
Like a patient etherised upon a table;"
-T.S. Eliot: The Love Song of J. Alfred Prufrock


Wed Mar 23, 2011 3:48 pm
Profile

Joined: Thu May 04, 2006 8:31 pm
Posts: 745
Location: Canary Islands
Post A Return to Nature
What occurs to me is that something is missing from the Christ, Lucifer myth, and I include myself in this process.
It seems a more wholistic approach to Nature seems called for, but this is a personal opinion when I think in terms of myself.

My first association was Demeter/Persephone. The Grain,Harvest/Underworld.

Image

Ryan

_________________
"Let us go then, you and I,
When the evening is spread out against the sky
Like a patient etherised upon a table;"
-T.S. Eliot: The Love Song of J. Alfred Prufrock


Wed Mar 23, 2011 4:33 pm
Profile
User avatar

Joined: Mon Feb 21, 2011 3:04 pm
Posts: 16
Location: central Illinois, U.S.
Post Mats, the trinity concept of the self
Mats, I have just found this thread, and I have begun to study your paper: The Complementarian Self.

What I don't think quite understand is what your view of the the 3 parts of the trinity are psychologically speaking. Of course, I know the names of the 3 persons Christians see in the One God, but I wonder what you see serve as the 3 parts of the trinity as a self or psychological phenomenon. I see that you see the whole of the trinity has to do with spiritual transcendence, but what are the 3 components?

joe


Fri Mar 25, 2011 1:50 pm
Profile
User avatar

Joined: Sun Apr 01, 2007 10:55 am
Posts: 262
Location: Stockholm, Sweden
Post 
The three persons in the Trinity is another issue, I think. I hold to M-L von Franz's view (Number and Time) that the whole numbers express different types of wholeness, that is, qualitatively. So I am not concerned with their quantity. The number 3 is experienced as a three-wholeness, the four as a four-wholeness, etc. This means that they can serve as different models of the self. They can also serve as different models of the divine. I suppose, the number 2 is also a wholeness model for divinity, in Zoroastrianism, the world-religion of antiquity. It was a dualistic, binarian, religion. So I need not go into the significance of the "persons" in the numbers, because every number is "one" thing, since its quality is one. Jung's god image was quaternarian in quality. I don't claim to know exactly what I am talking about. It is intuitive, not an exact science. By the way, this is an excellent site about the meaning of numbers:
http://www.mysticalnumbers.com/

Mats


Fri Mar 25, 2011 3:45 pm
Profile WWW
User avatar

Joined: Mon Feb 21, 2011 3:04 pm
Posts: 16
Location: central Illinois, U.S.
Post thanks, Mats
Thanks, Mats. No wonder you didn't explain the Trinity - its detail did not matter to your thesis. By the way, I don't believe for a moment that you don't know what you are talking about.

joe


Sat Mar 26, 2011 2:00 pm
Profile
User avatar

Joined: Mon Feb 15, 2010 10:24 am
Posts: 74
Location: Moscow, Russia
Post Re: The hermaphrodite reinterpreted
Hi all! My own two bits here: speaking of numbers and mathematics in general, just recently I've spoke with my friend, who is electronics designer/engineer. We discussed several topics, and among others there was a topic about "backlinks" - methods of organizing a feedback, positive or negative in the system. And then, looking at some of his schematics, I've suddenly realized - physical and psychical (or spiritual, to be more precise) realities are nothing more than real and imaginary parts of a complex number set.

Image

There's a graphical representation of complex number - x is real part, y is imaginary. Notice how it resembles classical quaternal mandala of Jungean Self symbol.

To simplify - these two realities coexist perpendicularly, not affecting each other directly. But if we take unus mundus as a complex number set, then we'll see that real and imaginary numbers are working together and any harmonic oscillation in unus mundus will make resonant oscillations in physical and psychical worlds, acausally connecting them. I'm no master to explain mathematics of complex numbers, but they do play very important role in quantum physics, relativity, fractals and so on. So I think they are really good at being symbol of unus mundus, and meditating on them had gave me a lot of insight into the psychophysical reality - as I see it.

BTW: real, imaginary and complex is good analogy for yang, yin and chi, or even Spirit, Matter and Soul - they all have to be orthogonal to each other, not opposite, otherwise they'll just cancel each other. What do you think about all that?

_________________
Alchemy is a dance of life.


Wed Jul 27, 2011 8:03 pm
Profile

Joined: Tue Nov 09, 2010 1:06 pm
Posts: 106
Images: 0
Location: New York
Post Re: The hermaphrodite reinterpreted
Wayfarer wrote:
Image


Wayfarer and all -

This model has been passing in and out of thought in various ways (and touching on other current UM forum themes) and I'd like to try to share some of the ideas here. I don't have the technical computer ability to illustrate, but I'll try describing in words.

The first thing that occurred to me after seeing/reading the above was a third axis, let's call it 'z' which goes straight up from the point x/y= 0, making a third dimension. It appeared as/created a dome or half an orb (rather than the tip of a cone) which would mean that the 'z' factor was in effect determined by the x/y parameters (and/or vice versa) , in turn determining the overall size of the circle or aperture . And then also, that the z number approaches zero (or infinity) as it moves up or out from the x/y plane.

Then, there comes the "anti grid", i.e. that on the "other side" of the x/y grid, there is a negative z axis. The x/y/z factors remain constant but the z factor goes from a positive to a negative number. This completes an orb/sphere. In my mind it was black on the back and white in the front. And then the model went into motion - i.e. the white half turning one way, and the black half turning the other way.

There has been much talk on the forum of reverse spinning etc. , and this morning I happened to read the following from a biography of Richard Feynman:

"... the probability of a particle's emerging from a clump of scattering matter in a certain direction must be equivalent to the probability of an antiparticle's taking the reverse path. From the antiparticle's point of view, time was running backward."

Bringing this all the way back to my introduction to this forum, I am reminded of 'the wheel image of Niklaus von Flue'. And in particular the themes of parity and simultaneity. Three spikes going toward the center and three going toward the perimeter.

Image


If I could illustrate from the above, I would create a black/white version of the von Flue image with a complimentary reverse white/black one. Maybe even in 3-D.



And I wonder/wander- there is a fourth factor of the model - the field in which it rests, the observer, I don't know.


Of course these are generalized, idealized, models. Nature is messy!


And maybe nothing new here at all to the old dogs on the UM forum :mrgreen:


beth


Last edited by beth on Tue Aug 02, 2011 5:04 pm, edited 1 time in total.



Tue Aug 02, 2011 3:42 pm
Profile Personal album

Joined: Thu Nov 26, 2009 4:58 am
Posts: 470
Location: canada
Post ...
Hi,

backwards, seems to be a running theme these days!

Lucifer = the one who brings (interesting to think that lucifer would be charged with such a great endeavor)...

Christ = the actual light (interesting to think that christ would be contained in something 'evil')

After writing this I started to look into it... wow, this really jumped out at me.

"Speak, Mary, declaring
What you saw when wayfaring."
"The tomb of Christ, who is living,
The glory of Jesus' resurrection;
Bright angels attesting,
The shroud and napkin resting.
My Lord, my hope, is arisen;
To Galilee He goes before you.

Christ indeed from death is risen,
Our new life obtaining.
Have mercy, victor King, ever reigning!
Amen. Alleluia."

So I look at "from death is risen" and see light and dark interacting... and from "a new life obtaining" I see a 3rd.


pascal

_________________
“And when I passed by you and saw you wallowing in your blood, I said to you in your blood, ‘Live!’ I said to you in your blood, ‘Live!’


Last edited by pascal b on Wed Aug 03, 2011 3:27 pm, edited 1 time in total.



Tue Aug 02, 2011 4:17 pm
Profile

Joined: Tue Nov 09, 2010 1:06 pm
Posts: 106
Images: 0
Location: New York
Post Re: ...
Pascal - on another thread I just posted lyrics from a song which have something like this "switcheroo" at the end too.

http://unus-mundus.fr/viewtopic.php?f=14&p=13451#p13451

beth


Tue Aug 02, 2011 4:33 pm
Profile Personal album

Joined: Tue Nov 09, 2010 1:06 pm
Posts: 106
Images: 0
Location: New York
Post tee hee hee
logged off from here and this ad popped up elsewhere. couldn't resist....


Image


Tue Aug 02, 2011 5:02 pm
Profile Personal album

Joined: Thu Nov 26, 2009 4:58 am
Posts: 470
Location: canada
Post Re: The hermaphrodite reinterpreted
Hi Beth and all,

All of this bacwards talk gets me thinking again about cavitation... well, that and reading some Joseph Campbell as well. I let the book Hero with a thousand faces open and it fell to page 243 - an image of 'separation of sky and earth' was at the top. I had one of those instant associations to this image of the cavitation bubble. This might not be the proper thread to post this in because it touches a few others running in the forum. Doing my best :D

In these images I see also the Christ / Lucifer connection...that, and the Rodin Coil, actually!



pascal


Attachments:
bubble.jpg
bubble.jpg [ 10.91 KiB | Viewed 3665 times ]
nut-geb-shu.jpg
nut-geb-shu.jpg [ 24.44 KiB | Viewed 3665 times ]

_________________
“And when I passed by you and saw you wallowing in your blood, I said to you in your blood, ‘Live!’ I said to you in your blood, ‘Live!’
Tue Aug 02, 2011 5:55 pm
Profile
User avatar

Joined: Mon Feb 15, 2010 10:24 am
Posts: 74
Location: Moscow, Russia
Post Re: The hermaphrodite reinterpreted
Hi all,

beth wrote:
Then, there comes the "anti grid", i.e. that on the "other side" of the x/y grid, there is a negative z axis. The x/y/z factors remain constant but the z factor goes from a positive to a negative number. This completes an orb/sphere. In my mind it was black on the back and white in the front. And then the model went into motion - i.e. the white half turning one way, and the black half turning the other way.


beth, speaking of 'x,y,z' space - yes, it is very close to what I've had in mind, but sphere is an ideal shape, which can be used only describing Universe as a whole, or its tiniest of 'grains' - quanta of space. If we're talking about more common cases, not these boundary ones, we may use more complex expressions, for example

z^3 + (0.006 + 0.002 i) / z^3

which on a plane will give us something like this:

Image

Reminds you of anything? :) Looks like classic mandala to me. And yet it's a simple graphic representation of the mathematical expression above.

If we'll go into the third dimension, we'll get something truly amazing (expressions are bit more complex, but still not too much):

Image

Image

My strong belief is that fractals, first 'descendants' of complex numbers, are the key to understanding many philosophical or even mystical concepts. It is a strange and unusual example of coniunctio oppositorum, where two forces are not trying to extinguish each other, but work together crating something much more... complex than the original forces by themselves.

Soon I'll put all my thoughts together and start another thread, where I'll try to 'connect all dots'. I'll be reading forum with the great interest in the meantime :)

Best of luck,
Evgeniy.

_________________
Alchemy is a dance of life.


Thu Aug 04, 2011 11:30 pm
Profile

Joined: Thu Nov 26, 2009 4:58 am
Posts: 470
Location: canada
Post Re: The hermaphrodite reinterpreted
Hi all,

I was reading something about the brain function of Buddha at his enlightenment... really reminded me of this discussion:

Wayfarer wrote:
It is a strange and unusual example of coniunctio oppositorum, where two forces are not trying to extinguish each other, but work together crating something much more... complex than the original forces by themselves.


I see the image is too small to read so I'll search for the page I grabbed it from... et voila http://www.shaktitechnology.com/enlightenment.htm

There are points that touch also on Rémi's posts in the zerach thread. The forum is tightening up it(s) seems (seams)...

pascal


ps: I had been sketching last night when I thought of drawing the sun... I mean, no thought went into how I would 'figure it out'... I simply drew what was on my mind. I feel this fits here and I hope that what I feel is in the drawing can be seen. I took a couple of minutes and made a good rendering. I suppose the basis of it refers to how the human eye can only see 3 colors. I went out there and purposely amplified my thoughts about it and found a static and expanding universe, a by-product of witnessing plus inherent rotation of black and white...but I'm certifiable, so... :roll:


Attachments:
Picture 69.png
Picture 69.png [ 27.35 KiB | Viewed 3622 times ]
Picture 20-1.png
Picture 20-1.png [ 280.39 KiB | Viewed 3632 times ]

_________________
“And when I passed by you and saw you wallowing in your blood, I said to you in your blood, ‘Live!’ I said to you in your blood, ‘Live!’
Mon Aug 08, 2011 2:37 pm
Profile
User avatar

Joined: Mon Feb 15, 2010 10:24 am
Posts: 74
Location: Moscow, Russia
Post Re: The hermaphrodite reinterpreted
Wow, pascal, thanks for that drawing!

pascal b wrote:
ps: I had been sketching last night when I thought of drawing the sun... I mean, no thought went into how I would 'figure it out'... I simply drew what was on my mind. I feel this fits here and I hope that what I feel is in the drawing can be seen. I took a couple of minutes and made a good rendering. I suppose the basis of it refers to how the human eye can only see 3 colors. I went out there and purposely amplified my thoughts about it and found a static and expanding universe, a by-product of witnessing plus inherent rotation of black and white...but I'm certifiable, so...


It is something I was looking for - a symbolic connection between primal forces of Light and Darkness, plus three colors of Body, Soul and Spirit (or materia, anima and spiritus). Materia in my own mind is associated with red color - it is something hot, chaotic, it is a color of Hell and demons, of blood and lava, of everything 'under the surface'.

Image

Spiritus is undoubtedly blue - it's cold, clear, crystalline in its nature. Just google pictures on word 'spirit' - all relevant ones will be blue ) It is a starlight, an electricity, a color of sky.

Image

Anima is green - it's a color of fresh leaves and grass, a color of heart chakra, of spring and life itself. Anima is a child of materia and spiritus, but 'child' doesn't mean 'mixture', otherwise we'll just get purple. Spirit and matter cannot just clash head-to-head - there would be no progress, no evolution, no life. So all three in my vision must be orthogonal, must be connected but at the same time retain full freedom in it's own dimension or realm.

Image

Your image is one good way of looking at all these symbols and concepts - IMHO, without understanding and accepting their interconnection there could be no real alchemy. But before understanding their interconnection we must understand each of these symbols by itself, so it means that we must separate them first. Well, alchemical opus all again, isn't it? )

_________________
Alchemy is a dance of life.


Fri Aug 12, 2011 11:01 pm
Profile

Joined: Thu Nov 26, 2009 4:58 am
Posts: 470
Location: canada
Post Re: The hermaphrodite reinterpreted
Hi Evgeniy,

I'm very glad this made some kind of impact. And your explanations are very clear! I'm aware of the 'fire' you've been writing with here in the forum and so far I can only see it as a positive force, so to speak. The more intense bursts of light here lately are providing good light on lesser known ideas. (for me)

Well, it's appreciated...that's for sure.


kindest regards,
pascal

_________________
“And when I passed by you and saw you wallowing in your blood, I said to you in your blood, ‘Live!’ I said to you in your blood, ‘Live!’


Sun Aug 14, 2011 2:26 pm
Profile
User avatar

Joined: Mon Feb 15, 2010 10:24 am
Posts: 74
Location: Moscow, Russia
Post Re: The hermaphrodite reinterpreted
Hi pascal!

Thank you for your kind words ) Sadly I don't have much time right now to write down everything I want to, but maybe on the next week I'll continue the thread I've started earlier. Also I have to formulate my thoughts very carefully - devil is in the details, and in this case in terminology too. Even pictures don't help too much sometimes.

Looking forward to see you here again,
Evgeniy.

_________________
Alchemy is a dance of life.


Thu Aug 18, 2011 10:02 pm
Profile

Joined: Thu Nov 26, 2009 4:58 am
Posts: 470
Location: canada
Post Re: The hermaphrodite reinterpreted
Hi,

I look forward to your posts Evgeniy... and I am sure that what I don't grasp will eventually 'sprout' when I least expect it to.

I took a page from what Gregory had just written and meditated on this image of the 'sun'. I just let my looking at it turn into a gaze and marked what I saw. I was able afterwards to bring the image into photoshop and make a rendering of what I saw. I would think that an optometrist might get a chuckle out of it, but I have my own interpretation regardless... :)

I'm trying to get a handle on how the pastels came about, but here's what they looked like.

kind regards,
pascal


Attachments:
Picture 38.png
Picture 38.png [ 38.29 KiB | Viewed 3590 times ]
Picture 36.png
Picture 36.png [ 31.7 KiB | Viewed 3590 times ]

_________________
“And when I passed by you and saw you wallowing in your blood, I said to you in your blood, ‘Live!’ I said to you in your blood, ‘Live!’
Wed Aug 24, 2011 6:10 pm
Profile

Joined: Tue Nov 09, 2010 1:06 pm
Posts: 106
Images: 0
Location: New York
Post Re: The hermaphrodite reinterpreted
Evgeniy, Pascal -

I thought of Evgeniy's recent posts and (gratefully) of this forum in general when I read the following sentence the other day:


"The essence of renormalization is to make the transition from one level of description to the next."



beth


Thu Aug 25, 2011 4:01 pm
Profile Personal album
Founder
User avatar

Joined: Tue Jul 05, 2005 7:25 pm
Posts: 2657
Location: Zurich, Switzerland
Post Re: The hermaphrodite reinterpreted
beth wrote:
"The essence of renormalization is to make the transition from one level of description to the next."beth


Very interesting, beth. Renormalization is a method in quantum physics (more exactly, in Quantum Electro Dynamics; QED) in which the infinite terms are cut away. In this way the "one level", i.e., the one of the unus mundus, of the deified level (infinities always symbolize the deity) to mere quantum physics. They cannot see that they reduce the divine world with its completely different behaviour to the physical world.

Remo

_________________
'Here stands the mean uncomely stone,
Tis very cheap in price!
The more it is despised by fools,
The more loved by the wise.'
(C.G. Jung, MDR, p. 253)
WebSite: http://www.paulijungunusmundus.eu


Fri Aug 26, 2011 10:08 am
Profile WWW

Joined: Thu Nov 26, 2009 4:58 am
Posts: 470
Location: canada
Post Re: The hermaphrodite reinterpreted
"Rather than any real blending of the two things together, they
are being kept apart by a kind of reductio ad absurdum of blending.
And so we come very naturally to see just how decisively Gurdjieff's 'sane logic' of the
"Harnel-miatznel" manages to completely escape from the dead-end to which we are led by the
conventional 'logic' of two-fold 'either-or' thinking.
For such a two-fold logic has built into it a self-destructive axiom, the convention of the
'excluded-middle', which corresponds precisely to the convention adopted by the children in the
above procedure of drawing lots. For such a logic something either 'is' or 'is not' a member of a
class, for example. Hence at the outset an axiom is being adopted which essentially denies the
possibility of the arising of anything really new in the 'situations' it purports to describe.
Hence such a 'logic' cannot refer to the world of real actions of which the sane logic of the
"Harnel-miatznel" can and does express the form. It is just an artificial construct which can never
hope to describe any processes in which any kind of blending is involved, and excludes
axiomatically the third thing which arises from blending. This feature of two-term logic
necessarily brings about a quite absurd divorce between the way we try to 'think' about actions
that occur in the world and the actual form of the actions themselves, which we observe, even
though the 'logic' denies it to be possible."

_________________
“And when I passed by you and saw you wallowing in your blood, I said to you in your blood, ‘Live!’ I said to you in your blood, ‘Live!’


Wed Aug 14, 2013 3:11 pm
Profile
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Reply to topic   [ 67 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
cron
Powered by phpBB © 2000, 2002, 2005, 2007 phpBB Group.
Designed by STSoftware for PTF.