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The UNUS MUNDUS forum of Psychovision (Remo F. Roth) invites discussion of theoretical and practical issues of a possible union of Carl Jung's depth psychology with quantum physical principles.
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 Discussion of Return of the World Soul 
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Post Re: Discussion of Return of the World Soul
Patrick Booker wrote:
Pauli's use of the concept of potential being becoming actual being reminded me of the concept of time developed by the philosopher J. G. Bennett. He postulated three forms of time, which he named Time (linear time), Eternity (potential, and containing all possibilities), and Hyparxis (which caused actual and potential to be connected and disconnected, and which he associated with will). These ideas are developed in Bennett's own books, and in Anthony Blake's 'A Seminar On Time'. This was the basic model adopted by J. B. Priestley in 'Man and Time', who was a friend of Jung, and had discussions with him about the nature of time.

Interesting, although not quite the same. The presence of will in the process seems at variance with the unknowability of an act of inward birth. I am reminded of the Grail stories in which a fugitive knight uses a sacred lance to defend himself, in ignorance of its true significance. On one level, this might be seen as a metaphor for the use of nuclear technology.


Yes, Patrick, there is a similarity. However, what Bennett calls Hyparxis is in my theory the "kairos". It is the qualitative moment of time, in which the "inner (singular) quantum leap" happens, the complement to the physical (singular) quantum leap in the moment of the measurment (or act of observation). Or, in the spontaneous moment, in which the decay of one singular radioactive atom happens. This is why I call this moment also the "inner radioactive deceay". The spontaneousity (acausality) of this event, and its spontaneous observation is the difference to Bennetts idea.

Remo

_________________
'Here stands the mean uncomely stone,
Tis very cheap in price!
The more it is despised by fools,
The more loved by the wise.'
(C.G. Jung, MDR, p. 253)
WebSite: http://www.paulijungunusmundus.eu


Thu Nov 03, 2011 12:42 pm
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Post Re: Discussion of Return of the World Soul
Patrick Booker wrote:
This occurred about three months ago, Remo:

'I had a hypnopompic vision of an outstretched hand reaching towards me as I lay in bed. It seemed to want to touch the tips of my fingers, as in Michelangelo's image of God's finger touching that of Adam in the Sistine Chapel. I reached out my own hand. I felt oddly divided, as if a part of me knew that it was a dream, and part of me was terrified. The terrified part of me won, and I screamed loudly twice.'

I think that I really did scream, and I probably did feel energised afterwards.
Patrick


I think that the vision liked to tell you that you are involved in a creation and incarnation process, in which out of the unus mundus ("God") new incarnation into our physical and psychic world happens. Such an event is called "creatio continua" by Medieval theology. It compensates the "creatio ex nihlo", the unique creation of the world by God as described in Genesis. You are terrified since there is some resistance against such processes that happen in you. These are real miracles -- and SST/BCI is based on such events.

Remo

_________________
'Here stands the mean uncomely stone,
Tis very cheap in price!
The more it is despised by fools,
The more loved by the wise.'
(C.G. Jung, MDR, p. 253)
WebSite: http://www.paulijungunusmundus.eu


Thu Nov 03, 2011 12:46 pm
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Post Re: The Problem
Roger Faglin wrote:
Yes I think Gregory is right. The problem with a book like The Return... is that a wider public is certainly not able to grasp spontaneously such subtleties that are nonetheless fundamental.

Any survey about the connotation of the comparative 'higher' will reveal a strong positive association. By the way it is a typical Logos problem. As you noticed in the hardness of writing this book, words are not meant to express the worldview we try to incarnate here.

In fact some langages woud be fitter than English that are still firmly rooted in a pre-christian shamanic culture. However they are not too commonly used :lol:

'Altered' is neutral, but as such does not convey the regressive-constructive nature of the tranformed energy. I guess the best way would be to keep the couple regressive-contructive as a qualifier.

Not the best way to lighten the sentence but then...


In German, and especially in physics, the term "higher" does not mean better. It just means that the energy is on a different level, a level that is not explainable by physical laws, neither classical, causal nor quantum physical, acausal laws.

In part 2 of Return I first speak in a neutral language of "altered energies". Then however, I have to differentiate: As long as people are unconscious about such paranormal events, i.e. especially that they are not conscious about the possibility to transform the Logos ego into the Eros ego [altered (!) consciousness], the effects of such phenomena are destructive (as, for example, the Pauli effect). If one becomes conscious of the altered consciousness, the Eros ego, these events result in constructive effects. This is the "philosophy" behind SST/BCI.

It was Roger, who first showed me this difference -- the reunion of the Eros ego with the Eros Self -- with one of the first dreams he posted in the UM forum. You can find it here, viewtopic.php?f=17&t=30&p=72#p72 . It is the dream in which the small spider unified with the big spider, the Eros ego with the Eros Self as I realized later.

Remo

_________________
'Here stands the mean uncomely stone,
Tis very cheap in price!
The more it is despised by fools,
The more loved by the wise.'
(C.G. Jung, MDR, p. 253)
WebSite: http://www.paulijungunusmundus.eu


Fri Nov 04, 2011 8:27 am
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Post Re: Discussion of Return of the World Soul
Remo Roth wrote:
I then had to ask myself why all this happened (and still happens). In section 3.2 I show that the root of all this lies in Jung himself. It is the continuation of a criticism of his quaternity concept that already Pauli began. He talks about the "esoteric, special existence" of Jung's depth psychology, of an "illegitimate child" and of "quaternities kept up in heaven" that cannot be used to solve the psychophysical problem.


In part 2 of Return, at its very end, I show that Pauli's dream of the Seal of Solomon that should be transformed into the quintessence and the square means the following:

In BCI/SST one enters the unus mundus - represented by the Seal - and in this way is able to observe singular (acausal) quantum leaps out of the unus mundus that change our four dimensional world in a positive way. Thus, we can say that out of the Seal new "quaternities" - new "space-time" is incarnated. This means a world in which new physical and psychical laws reign the world.

In this way I was able to reunify the Seal with the quaternity. The latter means an altered space-time, which means altered physical and psychical laws. In the UFO encounter and abduction experience this change is destructive since these people are not conscious about the fact that they should consciously quit the Logos and enter the Eros. Since the world soul would like to incarnate "new laws", She forces specific people into this state, in which they obey such transformations.

Remo

_________________
'Here stands the mean uncomely stone,
Tis very cheap in price!
The more it is despised by fools,
The more loved by the wise.'
(C.G. Jung, MDR, p. 253)
WebSite: http://www.paulijungunusmundus.eu


Fri Nov 04, 2011 8:45 am
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Post Re: Discussion of Return of the World Soul
Chapter 4 of Return of the World Soul is insofar essential as it continues Pauli's differentiation between Neoplatonic and Hermetic alchemy. Jung was not yet conscious of this difference. This is why he always mixes up Neoplatonic and Hermetic alchemy.

Pauli showed that Neoplatonic alchemy and the Neoplatonic world view in general - the latter being the background of science as well as of Jung's depth psychology (at least up until his heart attack in 1944) - differ in one essential point: Neoplatonic alchemy would like to transform the prima materia - evil matter - into the lapis, the philosopher's stone thought of residing in the Heavens or in the Platonian Empyreum. It is completely spiritual, and matter is not involved. A symbolic representation of the stone is the Platonic and Neoplatonic world soul.

Hermetic alchemy, however, tries to find the stone in an intermediary world, the world of the subtle body in-between spirit/psyche and matter. As I later (2011) realized, this stone is the Hermetic world soul, the Pneuma of the Stoa. In contrast to the Neoplatonic world soul the Hermetic is an energy of matter itself. It is not led by the "first principle", i.e. the Christian God. It is the real "spirit in matter", a feminine energy thought of to work in a magic, acausal way. It is what (in a neutral language) I call the matter-psyche principle in the second part of the book.

This leads to the conclusion that we have three sorts of energies: Outer spirit-psyche or physical energy - inner spirit-psyche or objective psychic energy (C.G. Jung) - and matter-psyche, the magical energy that is reached in BCI/SST. In this way we can theoretically describe synchronicity and BCI/SST, as follows:


Image



In Renaissance both, the Neoplatonic and the Hermetic world soul were yet accepted. Then, however, with the inclusion of math into the philosophy of nature natural science was born and the Pneuma of the Stoa was repressed. This is why most people believe only in outer spirit-psyche, physical energy, and since Jung's discovery of the collective unconscious a few other ones also in inner spirit-psyche, objective psychic energy.

Remo

_________________
'Here stands the mean uncomely stone,
Tis very cheap in price!
The more it is despised by fools,
The more loved by the wise.'
(C.G. Jung, MDR, p. 253)
WebSite: http://www.paulijungunusmundus.eu


Last edited by Remo Roth on Thu Feb 02, 2012 9:05 am, edited 2 times in total.



Fri Nov 04, 2011 9:50 am
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Post Re: Discussion of Return of the World Soul
It seems to be impossible to insert an image when editing a post. Thus I try it here:

Image

Seems also to be impossibe in this way.

Roger, can you help me? I would like to insert the following image:

http://paulijungunusmundus.eu/siegelsal ... undBCI.jpg

But it doesn't work. As much as I remember I always inserted imaged in this way. Now only the term "image" appears.

Thanks

Remo

PS: Now it works. The trouble was that the image was stored in a wrong place. But why does the UM forum program not tell me this?

_________________
'Here stands the mean uncomely stone,
Tis very cheap in price!
The more it is despised by fools,
The more loved by the wise.'
(C.G. Jung, MDR, p. 253)
WebSite: http://www.paulijungunusmundus.eu


Last edited by Remo Roth on Sat Nov 05, 2011 6:48 am, edited 3 times in total.



Fri Nov 04, 2011 10:03 am
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Post Re: Discussion of Return of the World Soul
Sorry Remo,

The method is OK but your link is not valid. If you click on it you get a 404 page.

Best

R.

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Fire over wood:
THE IMAGE of THE CAULDRON.
Thus the superior man consolidates his fate By making his position correct.
The fate of fire depends on wood; as long as there is wood below, the fire burns above. It is the same in human life; there is in man likewise a fate that lends power to his life. And if he succeeds in assigning the right place to life and to fate, thus bringing the two into harmony, he puts his fate on a firm footing.

I Ching #50


Fri Nov 04, 2011 5:31 pm
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Post Remo's missing images
Hi Remo and Roger, A couple of days ago, I was looking back at the beginning pages of the Ann-Suzanne Blog. I noticed that almost all of Remo's images were missing. All the images from the rest of us that had them uploaded into the old unus storage are still showing fine. The only other old missing images are from posts where direct links were given to Flicker or News sites where the image no longer exists. What images were stored at the old forum are all safely still being shown on the new forum.

Remo's images from his own website were visible I am pretty sure since the great new forum was set up by Roger. Remo was direct linking to images at his own website. But now something has happened. It really hurts to see his wonderful posts diminished in effect by the Rosarium, Von Flue, and other esoteric images no longer showing up. This does not seem to be a forum problem at all. Here is an example:

Remo Roth
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Re: Cosmic Christ

QUOTE: Suzanne wrote:
As Meister Eckhart might refer to the longing for the birth of the savior within our own souls.

REMO comments - Just these days I realized that in (Hermetic) alchemy, the salvator macrocosmi, the savior of the macrocosm compensatory to the salvator microcosmi, Jesus Christ, is identified with the subtle body. There are many quotes in Jung's work which prove this; for example:

Quote: “Union with the homo maximus [the savior of the macrocosm above; RFR] produces a new life, which Paracelsus calls ‘vita cosmographica’ [and vita longa; RFR]. In this life ‘time appears as well as the body Jesahach’ (cum locus tum corpus Jesahach). Locus can mean ‘time’ as well as ‘space’ … The corpus Jesahach may thus be the corpus glorificationis, the resurrected body of the alchemists, and would coincide with the corpus astrale.” CW 13, § 205

This means that the observation of the creation of the subtle body is equivalent to the birth of the savior of the universe (who only after the liberation can do his/her job). Thus, Body-Centered Imagination is the method to observe this birth.

That your imaginations deal with the savior of the macrocosm shows also the following quote:

Quote:
“[The filius macrocosmi is the] true and authentic duplex Mercurius or Giant [the homo maximus above; RFR] of twofold substance … the sole and perfect Healer of all imperfect bodies and men, the true and heavenly physician of the soul … the triune universal essence.” CW 13, §384


Here we see clearly that the savior must consist in a bipolar as well as in a triadic structure, as also the Rosarium pholosophorum states.



In an abstract presentation the savior of the universe becomes therefore identical with the Seal of Solomon or Star of David, or with the sixfold structure you are talking of.

X Image -- Properties of the direct link:

http://www.psychovision.ch/rosarium/rosarium10.jpg


Object not found!

The requested URL was not found on this server. The link on the referring page seems to be wrong or outdated. Please inform the author of that page about the error.

If you think this is a server error, please contact the webmaster.

Error 404

http://www.psychovision.ch
Fri Nov 4 22:03:14 2011
Apache/2.2.17 (FreeBSD) mod_hcgi/0.9.3 mod_ssl/2.2.17 OpenSSL/1.0.0c DAV/2

You can see Remo's post at the Ann-Suzanne Blog here... and indeed all
the way down and over to other pages, none of Remo's images are visible:

viewtopic.php?p=5908#p5908

Lots of Love and Respect to Remo and Roger,

Suzanne

P.S. Maybe it has something to do with Remo's website link name change from whatever it was before to the new:
WebSite: http://www.paulijungunusmundus.eu
Some connection is just not being made to have the images visible... the images some place not accessed.

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Fri Nov 04, 2011 10:25 pm
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Post Re: Remo's missing images
Suzanne wrote:
Remo's images from his own website were visible I am pretty sure since the great new forum was set up by Roger. Remo was direct linking to images at his own website. But now something has happened. It really hurts to see his wonderful posts diminished in effect by the Rosarium, Von Flue, and other esoteric images no longer showing up. This does not seem to be a forum problem at all.

P.S. Maybe it has something to do with Remo's website link name change from whatever it was before to the new:
WebSite: http://www.paulijungunusmundus.eu
Some connection is just not being made to have the images visible... the images some place not accessed.


Yes, Suzanne, this is the problem concerning these images. I will change page by page the addresses of the images, but this needs time.

However, the new image is not touched by this problem. There must be an error in the forum.

Remo

_________________
'Here stands the mean uncomely stone,
Tis very cheap in price!
The more it is despised by fools,
The more loved by the wise.'
(C.G. Jung, MDR, p. 253)
WebSite: http://www.paulijungunusmundus.eu


Sat Nov 05, 2011 6:26 am
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Post Re: Discussion of Return of the World Soul
I'd like to try to insert the bigger image:

Image

_________________
'Here stands the mean uncomely stone,
Tis very cheap in price!
The more it is despised by fools,
The more loved by the wise.'
(C.G. Jung, MDR, p. 253)
WebSite: http://www.paulijungunusmundus.eu


Sat Nov 05, 2011 6:53 am
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Post Re: Discussion of Return of the World Soul
Roger Faglin wrote:
Sorry Remo,

The method is OK but your link is not valid. If you click on it you get a 404 page.

Best

R.


Thanks, Roger

_________________
'Here stands the mean uncomely stone,
Tis very cheap in price!
The more it is despised by fools,
The more loved by the wise.'
(C.G. Jung, MDR, p. 253)
WebSite: http://www.paulijungunusmundus.eu


Sat Nov 05, 2011 6:54 am
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Post Re: Discussion of Return of the World Soul
Here is a dream from a couple of days ago;

'I am being given medical tests by a woman. She is taking a blood sample, and makes three insertions into my skin, using an implement that seems slightly larger than a needle. The punctures are on my forearm, fairly close together, and I feel little or no pain. The fact that my blood is red seems to be significant.'

Shades of the alien abduction experience. So these dreams take this sort of form when there is inner resistance to the activities of the World Soul?

Red blood contains iron, which is alien to Faeries (I am thinking of Celtic Faery lore), who are in some ways a parallel to the UFO aliens.

Patrick

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Sun Nov 06, 2011 1:08 pm
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Post Re: Discussion of Return of the World Soul
Patrick Booker wrote:
Here is a dream from a couple of days ago;

'I am being given medical tests by a woman. She is taking a blood sample, and makes three insertions into my skin, using an implement that seems slightly larger than a needle. The punctures are on my forearm, fairly close together, and I feel little or no pain. The fact that my blood is red seems to be significant.'

Shades of the alien abduction experience. So these dreams take this sort of form when there is inner resistance to the activities of the World Soul?

Red blood contains iron, which is alien to Faeries (I am thinking of Celtic Faery lore), who are in some ways a parallel to the UFO aliens.


Patrick,

Blood means "red tincture", which is equivalent to the quintessence, the final product of the Hermetic alchemical opus. In our language I would say that it means the subtle body. The latter is "created" by consciously observing the inner images and/or the vegetative sensations (sensing the subtle body in the body).

Three meand "energy". Thus, the "other energy", the subtle energies are meant.

Remo

_________________
'Here stands the mean uncomely stone,
Tis very cheap in price!
The more it is despised by fools,
The more loved by the wise.'
(C.G. Jung, MDR, p. 253)
WebSite: http://www.paulijungunusmundus.eu


Mon Nov 07, 2011 8:07 am
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Post Re: Discussion of Return of the World Soul
Remo,

Thanks for your insights. I have recently had an experience between sleep and waking where I am aware of thoughts, but they are not 'my' thoughts. They are just happening. There may be other subjects (identities) than myself present. First I realise that I am not me in the usual personal sense, and then that there is still someone aware of this. It has occurred a few times. I think that this is what Vedanta calls the Witness. I am not sure how this relates to the Logos Self and Eros Self.

Patrick

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Mon Nov 07, 2011 2:10 pm
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Post Re: Discussion of Return of the World Soul
Patrick,

This seems to be what C.G. Jung called the preconscious knowledge. There is "someone" in one's inside who thinks. We only listen and register.

All my books and manuscripts are written in this way. Somehow inspired by "the voice".

I think that the Eros aspect is the passive behaviour. One does not consciously think (and this is an act of will), but just listens passively to what the Logos tells us. Perhaps it is a relationship of the Eros ego with the Logos Self.

Remo

_________________
'Here stands the mean uncomely stone,
Tis very cheap in price!
The more it is despised by fools,
The more loved by the wise.'
(C.G. Jung, MDR, p. 253)
WebSite: http://www.paulijungunusmundus.eu


Wed Nov 09, 2011 8:58 am
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Post Re: Discussion of Return of the World Soul
All,

One of the most important aspects in Return of the World Soul is the attempt to clarify C.G. Jung's theory, which is completely contradictory. I have found a quote where Jung talks about this:

Quote:
The pioneer in a new field rarely has the good fortune to be able to draw valid conclusions from his total experience. The efforts and exertions, the doubts and uncertainties of his voyage of discovery have penetrated his marrow too deeply to allow him the perspective and clarity which are necessary for a comprehensive presentation. Those of the second generation, who base their work on the groping attempts, the chance hits, the circuitous approaches, the half truths and mistakes of the pioneer, are less burdened and can take more direct roads, envisage farther goals. They are able to cast off many doubts and hesitations, concentrate on essentials, and, in this way, map out a simpler and clearer picture of the newly discovered territory. This simplification and clarification redound to the benefit of those of the third generation, who are thus equipped from the outset with an over-all chart. With this chart they are enabled to formulate new problems and mark out the boundary lines more sharply than ever before.

Carl G. Jung in the Foreword to Esther Harding’s book Psychic Energy, Its Source and Its Transformation, Pantheon Books, Random House, Inc., N.Y., Bollingen Series X, 1948; today also in CW 18, § 1126.


In a letter to a professor of parapsychology, who is interested in the book, I listed the following topics:

1. The Aristotelian idea of potential being besides being and nonbeing. With its help one can describe processes {potential being > actual being}. Such a process is the act of measuring, but also the radioactive decay follows this process. In the second part I will define analogous inner processes; this is what happens in BCI.

Jung, educated before the quantum physical revolution, was not able to understand the difference between potential being and being (or nonbeing). He did not understand the quantum leap of physics that happens during the act of measuring (or act of observation). In this way he remains in what I call "creation by cognition" -- the will full thinking for getting something new. Since the quantum leap and thus the above process of the trasformation of potential being into actual being are "incarnation acts in time" (Pauli), there is also "creation by (mere) observation". Exactly this difference Jung was not able to realize, since he did not understand the physical quantum leap during the act of observation.

2. As Pauli first has seen, Jung has created two different theories for the same issue, the archetypes: the first theory is causal, as for example in AION, the second is acausal, as synchronicity. Since both theories would like to explain the development of the archetypes (e.g. the archetype of the Self), epistemologically seen, the definition of such contradictory theories is completely wrong!

This is the second very heavy mistake in Jung's theory. In the first part I clarify this contradiction, and in part II I will show the solution how the two theories can be combined. It is a similar procedure to the one in physics, where in string theories one tries to unify causal Einsteinian physics with acausal quantum physics (and needs exactly (3+1) + 6 = 10 dimensions; some of you are perhaps remined of the denarius of the Rosarium philosophorum:

See the about page of http://paulijungunusmundus.eu

3. I show the most important reason why C.G. Jung created such discrepancies: He mixed up the Anima with the anima mundi. This is graphically shown in the following figure:

Image

There I distinguish the Anima from the anima mundi. Only in this way it is possible to protrude to the unus mundus, the subject of our forum.

In this way it is then also possible to define what I call "matter-psyche", the magical energy of the u.m. Jung and Pauli were not yet able to do so, since they both believed in the dogma of the energy conservation law. However, in such processes (as also in UFO encounter and abduction; in the Pauli process, in BCI and SST) the energy conservation law is insofar broken as enery of altered order is generated. This energy behaves "completely unphysically" (M. Stöckler; a German philosopher/physicist), i.e., magically.

Remo

_________________
'Here stands the mean uncomely stone,
Tis very cheap in price!
The more it is despised by fools,
The more loved by the wise.'
(C.G. Jung, MDR, p. 253)
WebSite: http://www.paulijungunusmundus.eu


Wed Nov 09, 2011 9:16 am
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Post Re: Discussion of Return of the World Soul
I think that with these three clarifications I have revolutionized Jung's depth psychological theory. In this way we can proceed with the development of a psychophysical theory. This is what I do in part 2.

Remo

_________________
'Here stands the mean uncomely stone,
Tis very cheap in price!
The more it is despised by fools,
The more loved by the wise.'
(C.G. Jung, MDR, p. 253)
WebSite: http://www.paulijungunusmundus.eu


Wed Nov 09, 2011 9:35 am
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Post Re: Discussion of Return of the World Soul
To the publication of the book:

The distrubutor of the book seems not to be able to send the books to Amazon.com. This is why there it is still "not available".

I think that this is a completely non-professional attitude and am consternated that this is possible in the US, the country of unlimited possibilities ...

Remo

PS: Perhaps an unconscious resistance against the revolutionary insights developed in it ???

_________________
'Here stands the mean uncomely stone,
Tis very cheap in price!
The more it is despised by fools,
The more loved by the wise.'
(C.G. Jung, MDR, p. 253)
WebSite: http://www.paulijungunusmundus.eu


Wed Nov 09, 2011 9:39 am
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Post Re: Discussion of Return of the World Soul
I got my copy very promptly from The Book Depository - free delivery worldwide:

http://www.bookdepository.co.uk/Return- ... 8895604121

Patrick

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Wed Nov 09, 2011 11:34 am
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Post Re: Discussion of Return of the World Soul
Patrick Booker wrote:
I got my copy very promptly from The Book Depository - free delivery worldwide:

http://www.bookdepository.co.uk/Return- ... 8895604121

Patrick

Amazon.co.uk also sells it; but Amazon.com seems not to be able to do so. I hope that the publisher will arrange this soon.
I just got a message from a client that also Amazon.de writes that the book is and will be unavailable. Horrible!

Remo

_________________
'Here stands the mean uncomely stone,
Tis very cheap in price!
The more it is despised by fools,
The more loved by the wise.'
(C.G. Jung, MDR, p. 253)
WebSite: http://www.paulijungunusmundus.eu


Last edited by Remo Roth on Thu Feb 02, 2012 9:14 am, edited 1 time in total.



Wed Nov 09, 2011 11:53 am
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Post Re: Discussion of Return of the World Soul
Yes Remo, there seems to be a problem with Pari Publishing and Amazon.com. I have F. David Peat's 'Pathways of Chance', also published by Pari, and that is out of stock too. I think that they all are. Very odd.

Patrick

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Wed Nov 09, 2011 11:58 am
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Post Re: Discussion of Return of the World Soul
Patrick Booker wrote:
Yes Remo, there seems to be a problem with Pari Publishing and Amazon.com. I have F. David Peat's 'Pathways of Chance', also published by Pari, and that is out of stock too. I think that they all are. Very odd.

Patrick


Yes, Patrick, Pari Publishing informed me about that. It seems that Amazon.com is not interested in selling books anymore. Or was it a problem of the distributor? I do not know.

Remo

PS: At least, now, on Nov 13 the book is in stock. Hurray !!! :evil: :evil: :evil:

_________________
'Here stands the mean uncomely stone,
Tis very cheap in price!
The more it is despised by fools,
The more loved by the wise.'
(C.G. Jung, MDR, p. 253)
WebSite: http://www.paulijungunusmundus.eu


Sun Nov 13, 2011 5:05 pm
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Post Re: Discussion of Return of the World Soul
Remo Roth wrote:
In the second volume I also interpret UFO phenomena. In my interpretation also these phenomena belong to what I call the twin process: physical and/or psychic energy is transformed into the magic energy of the unus mundus and then re-transformed into physical and/or psychic energy of altered order. These show as UFOs and Aliens. The former control altered energies that cannot be explained by physical laws (some sort of psychokinetic effects, I guess), the latter function telepathically and precognitively.


I do not know whether I already posted the figure that shows the two processes. Thus I am posting it here:

Image

Remo

_________________
'Here stands the mean uncomely stone,
Tis very cheap in price!
The more it is despised by fools,
The more loved by the wise.'
(C.G. Jung, MDR, p. 253)
WebSite: http://www.paulijungunusmundus.eu


Wed Jan 18, 2012 10:28 am
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Post Re: Discussion of Return of the World Soul
Hi Remo,

I hope your book has been selling all over the world! Your ideas are very interesting, wonderful, and original; such a pleasure to consider them. I've enjoyed your book and I'd like to ask a couple of questions about some of your ideas. I have been following some threads on this forum recently, and this one about your book in particular.

- You mentioned performing some BCI at the time of Chernobyl and the appearance of some UFOs that cleaned up much of the radioactivity (Sorry, this isn't really about the book). I am unfamiliar with this. Do you have any other information about this--either about your experience or reports of UFOs around the site of the disaster at the time? It's very interesting.

- You mentioned entering the unus mundus via BCI/SST. The unus mundus has been a tricky topic for me to understand. In describing it people often seem to confuse their terms. Didn't Jung describe it as pure potentiality in Mysterium--where opposites are held together, and therefore able to operate in our world. Then he wrote about Dorn's 3rd coniunctio as the union of the caelum and unus mundus into a unio mystica, and suggest that experience of it is basically a mystical experience that is ineffible? Yet other people describe it in terms of a Corbin mundus imaginalis-type world, as a 3rd world inbetween psyche and matter, a world of subtle bodies. Jeff Raff does an interesting job, but he, too, gets confused in my view. He even talks about the possibility of the Self experiencing an inflation, which strikes me as completely nonsensical.

- when Pauli was differentiating Hermetic from Neoplatonic alchemy, was he referring to the books of 'Thrice Greatest Hermes' as the source texts for his hermetic studies, or what texts did he study (besides Fludd)?

- You share some strong opinions about dreams, and I share your concern over the possibility of problems around projection of therapist material. I also believe that with a therapist who is very conscious of their own material it is possible to achieve much through collaborative dream work. This has worked for me, both as a therapist helping others overcome their challenges and as a patient. I wonder if you work with the dreams of your clients? If so, do you work with them differently than most Jungians? (I don't consider myself a Jungian although I value the contributions of Jung and related researchers) Or do you teach your patients a particular way to work with their dreams, sort of like Robert Johnson's book Inner Work (which is a fabulous, easy-to-read primer on dreamwork and active imagination).

- I have always loved Aristotle, so your potential vs. actual being appeals to me greatly. His notions of ousia and eidos have always appealed as a more reasonable alternative to platonic forms. Doesn't Aristotle have a theory about the generation of life that is essentially passive, like the 'creation by observation'-your physical quantum leap during the act of observation? I vaguely recall something about this, but it is very tentative in my mind.

- One last question for now, concerning the creatio continua. When I look at Origen, Augustine, and Aquinas for the creatio continua I find the notion of the sustaining power and action of Logos to maintain the world. The idea is that matter has no fundamental reality and would therefore disappear immediately without the sustaining power of the Logos to support it every possible moment. But I do not find ideas regarding new acts of creation in time. My knowledge of these theologians is limited, so I could be completely wrong about this. I know that contemporary theologian Jürgen Moltmann (and likely others) posited a creatio continua as a continuing revelation of God's relationship and love for his creation, but I am unaware of this concept in the ancient literature. Can you point me in the right direction?

I have many more questions but should definitely hold off for now.

I can see you've been really generous with your time at this forum. As a new member it gives me a great feeling to see the community atmosphere here and your warm-hearted patience and caring for others.

-Ron


Wed Jan 18, 2012 10:28 pm
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Post Re: Discussion of Return of the World Soul
Hello Ron, I think of the unus mundus as a metaphysical concept allowing for a worldview in which 'psyche' is intrinsic to the cosmos, unlike the worldview of materialism in which psyche is secondary to matter. People nowadays tend to to have problems with metaphysical tenets as they want to understand them as 'things', but they are really concepts upon which our worldview is built and in which we "believe" blindly, like the gods of early civilization. Science and our whole worldview is dependent on an underlying metaphysic. Scientists believe sternly in metaphysical tenets, and so do religious believers. We cannot do without them. Jung wanted to introduce the new "god" called unus mundus and the "god" of synchronicity, to usurp the materialist and reductionist "gods".

A metaphysical system does not require empirical proof. For instance, there is no way of empirically proving that there exists such a principle as "causality". (In fact, you can prove that causality cannot exist logically, as David Hume did.) However, the metaphysical principle of causality can be *utilized* to create empirical evidence. So causality is an unprovable metaphysical tenet basic to science. We employ it because it is useful.

Jung's metaphysical tenet of synchronicity is equally unprovable as causality. It only becomes valuable if it proves useful. If we can deliberate our psychological experiences in terms of synchronicity, and it proves to have both an explanatory and guiding value, then synchronicity will take root in public consciousness. But it is not scientifically and empirically grounded, because it is a metaphysical tenet. Its usefulness will decide its value. The ancient Chinese regularly employed the synchronistic notion, in order to decide whether their chosen direction was in harmony with Tao, etc. Synchronicity can determine this.

William James was like a father-figure to Jung. James's neutral monism is what inspired the ideas of an archetypal foundation of existence. If Jung's unprovable metaphysics, which includes synchronicity, proves instrumental and functional, then it will succeed. The metaphysical tenets underlying science are no less 'spiritual' than Jung's 'number gods'. Neither of them are empirically scientific. To the Maya, the number gods ruled existence. It is an interesting notion. But it might prove necessary to update the metaphysic of today's scientific paradigm. It is not written in stone, and it has weaknesses. Physical science is today shaken by the strangest findings, especially in cosmology. Metaphysical tenets might have to be scrapped, and new added, which is known as a paradigm shift. A shift could be imminent, today.

Mats Winther


Thu Jan 19, 2012 1:06 pm
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Post Re: Discussion of Return of the World Soul
Hello Mats,
nice to meet you here and thank you for your thoughts. You offered many for consideration.

Your mention of William James and Jung reminds me of a great book that I suspect you are familiar with for more than one reason. I see you're in Stockholm, so I'm willing to bet money that you are very familiar with fellow Stockholm resident Suzanne Gieser's wonderful The Innermost Kernel: Depth Psychology and Quantum Physics. Wolfgang Pauli's Dialogue with C. G. Jung. Not too weeks ago I was reading about James' influence on Jung in that book. Loved it.

Speaking of synchronicities, I had a little one this morning around James. I woke up early this morning with some thoughts about the givenness of experience, how many more archaic cultures do not have the conceptual split of matter and mind, and how this might apply to abduction accounts. Now your post mentions neutral monism, which seems to be where my mind was wandering earlier. So thank you for this!! Very cool!! Von Franz explained how every explanation for the world is based on archetypal images, which you mentioned in your note ('an underlying metaphysic'). Jung has a great passage somewhere in vol. 8 (I think, but I could be wrong) where he describes how matter became the god for science, taking the same creation myth of the church, only reversing it. I completely agree re: the shift in dominants. I also believe we are the ones to facilitate its birth through our conscious participation and relationship with it.

I think positing the unus mundus as a metaphysical concept is something that deeply disturbed Wolfgang Pauli, as Remo's book repeatedly reminds. I think at some point Jung connected it with the word 'spirit' and that sent Pauli off the rails. (but don't quote me on that--my memory is as bad as my ability to surf) So if I understand you, you like the concept of the unus mundus because it restores psyche to an equal or equivalent position as matter, and you are willing to describe such a concept as metaphysical because for you all systems are metaphysical (the skepticism of David Hume re: causality) and it works for you. If I understand you correctly then it makes sense to me. I have to say that I have always thought of David Hume as the world's most fun skeptic. His language is a delight. Although I haven't read him for many years I still describe anything I don't like in the same manner that he did; it is always a 'manifest repugnancy'.

On a completely different note I would just like to say how amazed I still become to think that people from all over the world can come together on the Internet in this way. To think! There you are in Stockholm, with Remo in Zurich--places I've seen in movies and always wanted to visit yet never have had the opportunity, and yet we can casually communicate as if we are neighbors. Dios Mío! It just knocks me out. I suppose this amazement only serves to reveal my age, but I also suppose I don't care.


Thu Jan 19, 2012 9:18 pm
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Post Answers to Ron's questions I
RonNoc wrote:
I hope your book has been selling all over the world! Your ideas are very interesting, wonderful, and original; such a pleasure to consider them. I've enjoyed your book and I'd like to ask a couple of questions about some of your ideas. I have been following some threads on this forum recently, and this one about your book in particular.


Thank you. Writing this book was in fact a great adventure. Somehow it was "written out of me" and I was just an observer of this process. As much as I remember, Jung's Psychological Types was also written in this way.

Quote:
- You mentioned performing some BCI at the time of Chernobyl and the appearance of some UFOs that cleaned up much of the radioactivity (Sorry, this isn't really about the book). I am unfamiliar with this. Do you have any other information about this--either about your experience or reports of UFOs around the site of the disaster at the time? It's very interesting.


I will send a personal comment to you by email since this experience is yet a little private.

Quote:
- You mentioned entering the unus mundus via BCI/SST. The unus mundus has been a tricky topic for me to understand. In describing it people often seem to confuse their terms. Didn't Jung describe it as pure potentiality in Mysterium--where opposites are held together, and therefore able to operate in our world. Then he wrote about Dorn's 3rd coniunctio as the union of the caelum and unus mundus into a unio mystica, and suggest that experience of it is basically a mystical experience that is ineffible? Yet other people describe it in terms of a Corbin mundus imaginalis-type world, as a 3rd world inbetween psyche and matter, a world of subtle bodies. Jeff Raff does an interesting job, but he, too, gets confused in my view. He even talks about the possibility of the Self experiencing an inflation, which strikes me as completely nonsensical.


What Jung describes as the unus mundus is pure metaphysics. In this way he becomes a new "theologist" of the u.m. [The same is true for all the other authors you mention.] This was also Pauli's criticism, and he tried to "circumnavigate" this difficulty with Aristotle's concept of (metaphysical) potential being that becomes actual being in the observational process, as for example observable in the so-called act of measuring of quantum physics (where we can observe acausal quantum jumps). In this way, since something has changed, this is an indirect proof that the unus mundus exists. Jung however remained in his philosophical/theological attitude and was not able to distinguish potential being from being. He was not able to realize that he talked about archetypes, unus mundus, collective unconscious, etc. in a metaphysical manner, as being, since he never understood the quantum physical observational process, in which as a result of mere observation something new is incarnated into our world. Thus, Jung remained in what I call the (philosophical) creation by cognition and did not understand the creation by (mere) observation (the quantum physical measuring or observational process that leads to the quantum jump in matter).

Also Active Imagnation is some sort of creation by cognition (as a result of the verbal confrontation with the figures of the unconscious). Body-Centered Imagination, however, is a process of creation by observation. It is some sort of the observation of the inner quantum jump, an acausal procedure, in which one (mostly) only observes what happens (and does not enter a verbal confrontation; which to me seems to be a causal procedure). It seems that UFO experiencers unconsciously experience such BCIs (in the outside since they are unconscious about the fact that they fall into Eros consciousness).

Remo

_________________
'Here stands the mean uncomely stone,
Tis very cheap in price!
The more it is despised by fools,
The more loved by the wise.'
(C.G. Jung, MDR, p. 253)
WebSite: http://www.paulijungunusmundus.eu


Fri Jan 20, 2012 9:20 am
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Post Answers to Ron's questions II
RonNoc wrote:
- when Pauli was differentiating Hermetic from Neoplatonic alchemy, was he referring to the books of 'Thrice Greatest Hermes' as the source texts for his hermetic studies, or what texts did he study (besides Fludd)?


You can be sure that Pauli knew the essential texts of Hermetic alchemy. He never talked about a subject without having read the primary literature (and he was one of the last physicists, who had such a comprehensive knowledge of Humanistics). Thus, he surely knew 'Thrice-Greatest Hermes' or Corpus Hermeticum (transl. by G.R.S Mead). I am quoting form Pauli's letters, where he develops the ideas of the ancient philosophers further. This is why one does not find the original primary literature in my book. But implicitely it is included (see above).

As I mention on p. 72, Pauli distinguished Platonism from Hermeticism in a letter to M.-L. von Franz from Oct 16, 1951 (Wiss. Briefwechsel, Volume 4/I, p. 394-399). There he mentions Marsilio Ficino and Leone Ebreo (= Judas Abrahanel, Dialoghi amore) and Scotus Eriugena as the source of Platonic alchemy.

Remo

_________________
'Here stands the mean uncomely stone,
Tis very cheap in price!
The more it is despised by fools,
The more loved by the wise.'
(C.G. Jung, MDR, p. 253)
WebSite: http://www.paulijungunusmundus.eu


Fri Jan 20, 2012 9:57 am
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Post Answers to Ron's questions III
RonNoc wrote:
- You share some strong opinions about dreams, and I share your concern over the possibility of problems around projection of therapist material. I also believe that with a therapist who is very conscious of their own material it is possible to achieve much through collaborative dream work. This has worked for me, both as a therapist helping others overcome their challenges and as a patient. I wonder if you work with the dreams of your clients? If so, do you work with them differently than most Jungians? (I don't consider myself a Jungian although I value the contributions of Jung and related researchers) Or do you teach your patients a particular way to work with their dreams, sort of like Robert Johnson's book Inner Work (which is a fabulous, easy-to-read primer on dreamwork and active imagination).


To me letting associate the client is the collaborative aspect of dream interpretation. [It seems that more and more Jungians do not let the client associate anymore. They immediately "know" what the dreams means. Of course such a "knowledge" is completely wrong.] During the association process of the client I also associate with the selected key words. In this way I can distinguish my problem from the problem in the client's dream. This helps not to project too much into them. Further, as Jung, I can accept when a dream remains unclear. I do not force an interpretation. Mostly the interpretation emerges as some sort of a quantum leap, i.e., acausally, spontaneously, during or after the association process. And I have one important criterion for a successful interpreation: The client must accept it. If not, there are two possibilities: 1, that I am wrong, and 2, that the time is not yet right for the client to accept the interpretation.

Quote:
- I have always loved Aristotle, so your potential vs. actual being appeals to me greatly. His notions of ousia and eidos have always appealed as a more reasonable alternative to platonic forms. Doesn't Aristotle have a theory about the generation of life that is essentially passive, like the 'creation by observation'-your physical quantum leap during the act of observation? I vaguely recall something about this, but it is very tentative in my mind.


I do not know of any theory of the generation of life of Aristotle. As I mentioned, I was especially interested in the concept of {potential being > actual being} and Pauli's applying it to the quantum physical collapse of the wave function or observational process. This leads to the hypothesis that also inner quantum leaps are observable. Since with the help of observation new reality is created (and only in this way, if we believe in quantum physical epistemology), man becomes a co-creator of a new world with the help of the observation of such inner quantum leaps. As I also mentioned, I think that UFO experiencers (and especially the experiencers of UFO abduction) enter such a process unconsciously.

Remo

_________________
'Here stands the mean uncomely stone,
Tis very cheap in price!
The more it is despised by fools,
The more loved by the wise.'
(C.G. Jung, MDR, p. 253)
WebSite: http://www.paulijungunusmundus.eu


Last edited by Remo Roth on Fri Jan 20, 2012 10:26 am, edited 2 times in total.



Fri Jan 20, 2012 10:20 am
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Post Re: Discussion of Return of the World Soul
Ron, I also belong to a generation who doesn't take Internet for granted. I am still amazed that I can publish articles on my homepage and people all over the world can read them. Of course, I don't get many readers, but this is a remarkable opportunity to have an impact on one's time. Ideas are potentially very powerful. There is a slight possibility that I can affect a powerful and productive thinker who, in turn, will have an impact on his time. This opportunity didn't exist before. It is an important shift. I wonder what effects it will have in the future.

Yes, I've read Gieser's book. What troubles me with materialism is that we are about to dive headlong into matriarchy. Since matter ('Mater'-Mother) is fundamental to the universe, and ideas are viewed as secondary, the latter become relativized. They are regarded as invented, and no idea is more objective than the other. What's absolute is only the stuff that makes up the world and what sustains us, such as foodstuff. Thus the motherly principle becomes dominant, while the fatherly principle is undervalued. So people become enmeshed in the mother complex. But if the realm of ideas - the spirit - is fundamental to the universe, then it functions as a counterweight to matriarchy and relativism. Plato understood this when he tried to counter the relativism of the Sophists, and that's why he created his philosophy of Ideas or Forms. Jung's thought belongs in the Platonic tradition.

The notion of "metaphysics" is important to understand. People think that new ideas must be proven by empirical science, but this is not the case if these are paradigmatic ideas that make up the underpinning of a worldview - "gods", as it were. The ideas underlying materialist science haven't been proven by science. Scientists speak about "energy" all the time although nobody has ever made an empirical observation of "energy". It turns out to be little electrons, or photons, or whatever, but nowhere is energy to be seen. It is a metaphysical concept that scientists believe blindly in. They apply laws to it, such as the "conservation of energy", i.e, that energy can never be destroyed, only shift form. They also believe in the "locality of force", etc., i.e. that objects cannot affect each other if not connected through space in some way.

What proves that these are metaphysical tenets is that they turn out to be imperfect. Non-locality sometimes occurs in quantum physics (particles affect each other although there is no connection between them). Causality breaks down in the quantum world. This means that there exist events in the universe which occur independently of causality. Causality is very good, but it just isn't good enough to harbour all phenomena. Causality is used to "prove" scientific truth, but the validity of causality cannot be proven in itself. Quantum physics has disproven it as a universal unshakable principle. Another scientific method is mathematics. However, with the four rules of arithmetic, etc., we can construct true statements that are unprovable (according to Gödel's incompleteness theorems).

Our scientific worldview is built on a foundation of metaphysical unprovable principles. It is how it must be. An unproven metaphysical principle is not a "superstition". It is more correct to view it as a "divine" principle, something better than mere empiricism, just like Plato argued. Causality as metaphysical principle is not unshakable. This means that it is possible to augment or alter our metaphysic, by inventing new unprovable metaphysical principles. It is possible to have greater success in building a complete worldview, and to explain many inexplicable phenomena by adding new divine principles to the metaphysical foundation. Perhaps this is necessary in face of the current challenges in quantum physics and cosmology. Physicists now fear that our current system is about to collapse.

Mats Winther


Fri Jan 20, 2012 10:22 am
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Post Re: Discussion of Return of the World Soul
RonNoc wrote:
- One last question for now, concerning the creatio continua. When I look at Origen, Augustine, and Aquinas for the creatio continua I find the notion of the sustaining power and action of Logos to maintain the world. The idea is that matter has no fundamental reality and would therefore disappear immediately without the sustaining power of the Logos to support it every possible moment. But I do not find ideas regarding new acts of creation in time. My knowledge of these theologians is limited, so I could be completely wrong about this. I know that contemporary theologian Jürgen Moltmann (and likely others) posited a creatio continua as a continuing revelation of God's relationship and love for his creation, but I am unaware of this concept in the ancient literature. Can you point me in the right direction?


As much as I see, Origen is different. As an Egyptian to him matter is as important as the Logos. In On Dreams and Death Marie-Louise von Franz quotes some very important aspects of Origen. He was fascinated by the idea of the subtle body. Thus, in his core he was Gnostic/Hermetic, e.g. spirit and matter were of equal value to him.

Re creatio continua. I am not so much interested in the concept in philosophy/theology, but in its application to the quantum physical observational process on the one hand, and on the observation of the "inner quantum leap" during applying BCI (and in what I call synchronicity quest). There, something very new is is incarnated, out of "nothing".

Creatio continua is also the concept behind Isaak Luria's tikkun, which is the most important mystical idea to me: Man must help God to restore, reconstitute the destroyed world. In this way man becomes a co-creator with God (or better: with the World Soul; the feminine aspect of God, the Goddess). Such co-creation happens during the mentioned conscious observation of (acausal, spontaneous) inner quantum leaps. Unconsciously this happens also in UFO phenomena, however, since the whole process remains unconscious, no sustainable effect is created.

Remo

_________________
'Here stands the mean uncomely stone,
Tis very cheap in price!
The more it is despised by fools,
The more loved by the wise.'
(C.G. Jung, MDR, p. 253)
WebSite: http://www.paulijungunusmundus.eu


Fri Jan 20, 2012 11:01 am
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Post Re: Answers to Ron's questions III
Remo Roth wrote:
During the association process of the client I also associate with the selected key words. In this way I can distinguish my problem from the problem in the client's dream. This helps not to project too much into them.


An example: If there is a car in the dream, I ask the dreamer what he associates spontaneously with "car". He e.g. associates "accident". I associate "noise". In this way, with the help of the association, the meaning of "car" is seperated. In this way the interpreter does not unconsciously include his subjective meaning into the dream of the dreamer, and a projection of his problem is prevented. This seems to me to be the slightest ethical responsability and consequence we have to take as therapists.

Remo

_________________
'Here stands the mean uncomely stone,
Tis very cheap in price!
The more it is despised by fools,
The more loved by the wise.'
(C.G. Jung, MDR, p. 253)
WebSite: http://www.paulijungunusmundus.eu


Fri Jan 20, 2012 7:12 pm
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Post Re: Discussion of Return of the World Soul
Thank you both for your replies.

Mats - can you point me to your website? I'd like to read your articles. Do you attribute the coming headlong dive into matriarchy as a compensation of the still-recent historical patriarchy? What new divine principles do you intuit in the current challenges?

Dr. Roth - I thank you for your attention and willingness to go into your ideas with me, especially the creatio. The connection with the tikkun is very interesting to me. I remember you mentioning this in your book.

I asked about Hermetic alchemy and Pauli to learn if there were other texts I should know about so I can read them once the dissertation is finished. I have enjoyed the little I have read from Mead's translations.

Our dream work with clients is the same; I thought this was how all responsible Jungians handled dreams. I'm sad to hear that many jump to conclusions.

"Since with the help of observation new reality is created (and only in this way, if we believe in quantum physical epistemology), man becomes a co-creator of a new world with the help of the observation of such inner quantum leaps. As I also mentioned, I think that UFO experiencers (and especially the experiencers of UFO abduction) enter such a process unconsciously." --This is very interesting to me, the idea of becoming creators of the world. It appeals.

I agree with you that most other Jungian authors do not describe the unus mundus clearly. They say that they are not positing a metaphysical idea but that is exactly what they do, down the line, generation to generation. I'm not necessarily against the idea of positing a metaphysical idea, but I do value clarity in ideas.

I also enjoyed your description of Active Imagination and it's difference from your Body-Centered Imagination.


Tue Jan 24, 2012 1:42 am
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Post Re: Discussion of Return of the World Soul
Ron, contributors who have a webpage have a link to it on the little 'www' button below their postings. Concerning, matriarchy on the rise, M-L von Franz writes about this in Alchemy (1980). I cite her in the following article of mine:
Symbolic Poverty.

'Metaphysical' shall not be used as a derogatory word. It's true that Jung becomes 'metaphysical' when he discusses the unus mundus and synchronicity, but that's alright. There is no way of observing these entities or principles, as such, and to prove them empirically. This follows the Platonic paradigm. They are archetypes. It was Plato who invented archetypal thinking. It relates to the time-honoured philosophical issue of form contra substance. Whereas the modern scientific paradigm has its roots in the thinking of Aristotle, modern psychology, with its archetypal notion, is indebted to Plato. Aristotle argued that what we see around us contains both matter and form (hule and eidos). This means that the form is not transcendental to the worldly object, what Plato had argued. Today we know that a tree's form is programmed into its genes, and in this sense the form of the tree exists within its every cell. Likewise, the wonderful qualities of water depend on the characteristics of the water molecule. Hence Aristotle was right in his contention that the objects carry their form within themselves.

But the Platonic worldview has today renewed its prominence. It turns out that it is relevant to the relation conscious-unconscious. This is how the unconscious 2 million year old man is thinking. It is good to know how he thinks, and avoid fixation at the conscious, linear and scientific thinking. So my argument is that archetypal thinking, as such, has its roots in the unconscious. Regardless of the metaphysical status of the archetype, the archetypal way of thought proceeds naturally in the unconscious. It is an innate form of symbolic cognition that is predicated on our psychic economy. This means that the notorious problem of the metaphysical nature of the archetype is relativized, and also makes the issue of archetypal ontology less urgent.

So we shouldn't throw Plato out with the bathwater. It turns out that 'metaphysical ideas' are at the root of physical existence. They are fundamental to science. On account of this, some would argue that 'psyche' underlies existence, as ideas necessitate a psychic substance. A quantum phenomenon needs an observer's psyche to make it manifest in reality, in order to collapse the statistical quantum wave. Today, we are caught in a double-bind, as it were, torn betwen Plato and Aristotle. Plato is equally important as Aristotle, although people want to believe that we can do without metaphysical ideas. I discuss this in the following article:
The animistic archetypal nature of the unconscious.

Mats Winther


Tue Jan 24, 2012 8:29 am
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