UNUS MUNDUS

The UNUS MUNDUS forum of Psychovision (Remo F. Roth) invites discussion of theoretical and practical issues of a possible union of Carl Jung's depth psychology with quantum physical principles.
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 Discussion of Return of the World Soul 
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Post Re: Discussion of Return of the World Soul
Matswin wrote:
[M.-L. von Franz:]'Metaphysical' shall not be used as a derogatory word. It's true that Jung becomes 'metaphysical' when he discusses the unus mundus and synchronicity, but that's alright. There is no way of observing these entities or principles, as such, and to prove them empirically. This follows the Platonic paradigm. They are archetypes. It was Plato who invented archetypal thinking. It relates to the time-honoured philosophical issue of form contra substance. Whereas the modern scientific paradigm has its roots in the thinking of Aristotle, modern psychology, with its archetypal notion, is indebted to Plato. Aristotle argued that what we see around us contains both matter and form (hule and eidos). This means that the form is not transcendental to the worldly object, what Plato had argued. Today we know that a tree's form is programmed into its genes, and in this sense the form of the tree exists within its every cell. Likewise, the wonderful qualities of water depend on the characteristics of the water molecule. Hence Aristotle was right in his contention that the objects carry their form within themselves.


Of course there are always metaphysical assumptions. Quantum physical epistemology, however, shows us that we can transform metaphysical ideas (potential being) into empirically observable facts (actual being). The same is true for depth psychology. Thus, the replacement of a metaphysical idea by an observable fact is a progress. [I would say that in a religious-psychological language it is the replacement of the dogmatic by the mystic.] It is this idea of Pauli's, the replacement of the archetypes as metaphysical being by potential being, in his letters to Jung that fascinated me from the beginning on (and I describe the idea and its implications in extension in my book). Further, we cannot explain the UFO phenomenology with the help of Platonic ideas, especially with Neoplatonic alchemical ideas. We need Hermetic alchemy and its idea of incarnation. Such incarnation out of the unus mundus proves that the latter is existent; in this way it is not a metaphysical idea anymore but a (indirectly proven) fact.

Thus, during writing "Return" I realized that I have to contradict MLvF (and of course also C.G. Jung). But I think that only with the inclusion of Hermeticism into depth psychology (which means also including parapsychology) we can find a real progress.

Perhaps such conclusions are more understandable for a human educated in natural science than one in Humanistics.

Remo

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'Here stands the mean uncomely stone,
Tis very cheap in price!
The more it is despised by fools,
The more loved by the wise.'
(C.G. Jung, MDR, p. 253)
WebSite: http://www.paulijungunusmundus.eu


Tue Jan 24, 2012 2:43 pm
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Post Re: Discussion of Return of the World Soul
RonNoc wrote:
The connection with the tikkun is very interesting to me. I remember you mentioning this in your book.


I think that Isaak Luria's Cabbalah is also the key to the explanation of the UFO phenomenon. It must, however, first be translated into a modern language. This is what I tried in Part II of Return of the World Soul.

Quote:
I agree with you that most other Jungian authors do not describe the unus mundus clearly. They say that they are not positing a metaphysical idea but that is exactly what they do, down the line, generation to generation. I'm not necessarily against the idea of positing a metaphysical idea, but I do value clarity in ideas.


I am just writing a Chapter in my new ms "Die synchronistische Weltsicht" (The synchronistic world view), in which I show first how Pauli tries to explain the contents of the unus mundus. He called it the psychophysical reality, and as a physicist and "conscience of physics" he was conscious about the fact that such reality must be empirically observable (and not just describable by metaphysical hypothesises). In the early thirties he began to dream about "physical-symbolical terms". The magician of his dreams used the physical terms in a completely different way than the one Pauli was used to. Thus, he began to realize that not the physical terms were meant, but some symbolic interpretation of them. The most important term (IMO) is the one of "radioactivity". The magician demaned that he replaced "synchronicity" by "radioactivity." On a physical plane this is complete nonsense. But on a psychophysical level there is much sense in such a replacement. Pauli's dreams show that he had had to accept that radioactivity is not only a physical phenomenon, but also a psychophysical. Radioactivity reaches down into this deeper world behind the split into matter and spirit/psyche. This is why, IMO, with the help of producing radioactivity in the process of the artificial fission of the atom we 'poison' the unus mundus. We create destructive new energies that will destroy mankind psychically and physically. I hope, however, that with the help of the modern tikkun, Body-Centered Imagination, in which the Eros ego is created that behaves "radioactive", i.e., acausally in space and time (as does the radioactive nucleus), it is possible to create a constructive complement to this destructive process. All this I am talking about in Part II.

Following a proposal of Gregory's we call this process the construction of the anti-nuclear bomb.

Remo

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'Here stands the mean uncomely stone,
Tis very cheap in price!
The more it is despised by fools,
The more loved by the wise.'
(C.G. Jung, MDR, p. 253)
WebSite: http://www.paulijungunusmundus.eu


Tue Jan 24, 2012 3:05 pm
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Post Re: Discussion of Return of the World Soul
Matswin wrote:
Today we know that a tree's form is programmed into its genes, and in this sense the form of the tree exists within its every cell.


well as I far as I know nobody ever proved that. And in fact genes and DNA are not about form.
The analogy between DNA and computer programs still belongs to the old cartesian worldview of the animal-machine.

This is why a biologist like Rupert Sheldrake postulated the notion of morphic field and morphic resonnance. Morphic fields like the contents of the Unus Mundus (see Remo's post supra) can be deduced from the observation of their effects. Sheldrake's approach is very much inscribed in the quantum physical epistemology and I would not be surprised if morphic fields were considered as 'rooted' in the UM.

Roger

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The fate of fire depends on wood; as long as there is wood below, the fire burns above. It is the same in human life; there is in man likewise a fate that lends power to his life. And if he succeeds in assigning the right place to life and to fate, thus bringing the two into harmony, he puts his fate on a firm footing.

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Tue Jan 24, 2012 5:26 pm
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Post Re: Discussion of Return of the World Soul
I've read Sheldrake. His ideas are very unconvincing. Long ago I wrote a critique of his theory here:
The Morphic Deception.

Mats


Tue Jan 24, 2012 5:52 pm
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Post Re: Discussion of Return of the World Soul
As we all recognize, the fact that someone's ideas are unconvincing doesn't make them wrong. Frankly, I find Sheldrakes' ideas compelling and even truly pragmatic (in an unconventional way, of course).

Rupert Sheldrake actually lives here in B.C., on an island off the coast. A friend of mine has been working with him on his morphic resonance project.

There is yet a mystery to life, that is for darn sure, so there's no reason why we have to get stuck thinking any one theory ultimately wins out over another -- great news, right?

together with the trees, the wind and the grains of sand --
pax!
Kristin

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Sat Jan 28, 2012 3:22 am
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Post Re: Discussion of Return of the World Soul
kristin wrote:
As we all recognize, the fact that someone's ideas are unconvincing doesn't make them wrong. Frankly, I find Sheldrakes' ideas compelling and even truly pragmatic (in an unconventional way, of course).

Rupert Sheldrake actually lives here in B.C., on an island off the coast. A friend of mine has been working with him on his morphic resonance project.

There is yet a mystery to life, that is for darn sure, so there's no reason why we have to get stuck thinking any one theory ultimately wins out over another -- great news, right?

together with the trees, the wind and the grains of sand --
pax!
Kristin


Yes, Kristin, but looked at this in a scientific way, we should look for empirical proof of the theory. As much as I remember, Sheldrake looks for such proofs. He planed telepathic experiments with owners of dogs and cats. According to his theory they should have a telepathic relationship with their pets.

Comparition with my theory: In accordance with Pauli I am postulating that we cannot say anything about this morphic field; only if we can show changes in the meaning of the process {potential being > actual being} we can indirectly prove the "morphic field" behind this change.

That Sheldrake lives on an island is very convincing to me. In this way he is perhaps looking for the (deeply introverted) Eros ego that only can observe such (acausal, spontaneous) transformation out of the unus mundus/"morphic field".

Remo

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'Here stands the mean uncomely stone,
Tis very cheap in price!
The more it is despised by fools,
The more loved by the wise.'
(C.G. Jung, MDR, p. 253)
WebSite: http://www.paulijungunusmundus.eu


Sat Jan 28, 2012 5:45 am
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Post Re: Discussion of Return of the World Soul
Roger

Roger Faglin wrote:
Matswin wrote:
Today we know that a tree's form is programmed into its genes, and in this sense the form of the tree exists within its every cell.

well as I far as I know nobody ever proved that. And in fact genes and DNA are not about form.
The analogy between DNA and computer programs still belongs to the old cartesian worldview of the animal-machine.
This is why a biologist like Rupert Sheldrake postulated the notion of morphic field and morphic resonnance. Morphic fields like the contents of the Unus Mundus (see Remo's post supra) can be deduced from the observation of their effects. Sheldrake's approach is very much inscribed in the quantum physical epistemology and I would not be surprised if morphic fields were considered as 'rooted' in the UM.


I always wondered that scientists think that everything is programmed in the genes, since, as you say, they do not say anything about form. The form is somehow qualitatively higher than the parts of it. As Fritz Pearls had put it: The cigarette is more than the sum of its parts, the tobacco and the paper. RFR: Thus, it is more than a quantitative addition.

The funny thing is that also quantum physics needs group theory for the explanation of the quark structure of matter and energy.

Quote:
Elementary particles were observed to reflect symmetry properties in more esoteric spaces. In all these cases, symmetry can be expressed by certain operations on the systems concerned, which have properties revealed by Group Theory, a rather obscure branch of mathematics that had previously been mainly a curiosity without practical application. http://mysite.du.edu/~jcalvert/phys/groups.htm (University of Denver)


Remo

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'Here stands the mean uncomely stone,
Tis very cheap in price!
The more it is despised by fools,
The more loved by the wise.'
(C.G. Jung, MDR, p. 253)
WebSite: http://www.paulijungunusmundus.eu


Sat Jan 28, 2012 5:56 am
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Post Re: Discussion of Return of the World Soul
kristin wrote:
As we all recognize, the fact that someone's ideas are unconvincing doesn't make them wrong. Frankly, I find Sheldrakes' ideas compelling and even truly pragmatic (in an unconventional way, of course).

Rupert Sheldrake actually lives here in B.C., on an island off the coast. A friend of mine has been working with him on his morphic resonance project.

There is yet a mystery to life, that is for darn sure, so there's no reason why we have to get stuck thinking any one theory ultimately wins out over another -- great news, right?

together with the trees, the wind and the grains of sand --
pax!
Kristin


But it is utter relativism to say that all theories are equally relevant. Relativism is the the brother of materialism. Matter, the "maternal" substance, is viewed as primary while "ideas" are secondary and derived. Hence the latter become relativized as they are regarded as invented, and no idea is more objective than the other. Only the stuff that makes up the world and what sustains us, such as foodstuff, is regarded as objective. Thus the motherly principle becomes predominant, while the fatherly principle is undervalued. A collective mother complex develops, as M-L von Franz has pointed out. That's why people and states are so fixated on the bodily wellbeing of people, rather than their spiritual wellfare. But if the realm of ideas - the spirit - is fundamental to the universe, then it functions as a counterweight to matriarchy and relativism. Jung's thought belongs in the Platonic tradition which is patriarchal and tries to elevate the Ideas or Forms. Clearly, relativism was anathema to him.

Why do many people today think that ideas and cultural factors are all equally valid? It's because they undervalue ideas. Of course, if you are more or less indifferent to ideas, then they will become relativized. You simply shrug your shoulders at them all. Only the bodily and material is really important. However, to some people ideas ar very important. Thus, they regard some of the ideas as wrong, evil and destructive, while others are good and fruitful. The latter, according to Plato, have always existed in the realm of Goodness and Truth. They are absolute and not derived from atoms and molecules. It is an underlying materialism which bolsters all these romantic New Age philosophers, whose ideas are often naive and keep people bound to beliefs which are inherently materialistic. The morphic field and the notion of morphic resonance revolve around properties of matter, and nothing else. Ideas have no place in such a universe because nature arranges itself and evolves as it remembers earlier events. All that exists is Mater Materia and its memory, which is like a cosmic Mother goddess. In a way, it is materialism driven to its extreme.

Mats Winther


Sat Jan 28, 2012 11:28 am
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Post Re: Discussion of Return of the World Soul
Matswin wrote:
... Matter, the "maternal" substance, is viewed as primary while "ideas" are secondary and derived. ... Why do many people today think that ideas and cultural factors are all equally valid? It's because they undervalue ideas. Of course, if you are more or less indifferent to ideas, then they will become relativized. You simply shrug your shoulders at them all. Only the bodily and material is really important. However, to some people ideas ar very important. Thus, they regard some of the ideas as wrong, evil and destructive, while others are good and fruitful.


First: Quantum physics has shown that we cannot know what matter really is.
Second: If we believe in Pauli we can neither know what "ideas" are.

We can however replace "Matter" and "Ideas" by the idea of the unus mundus. We then still have something metaphysical; however, we can observe creative processes out of it: {Potential being > actual being}. We can observe this on the one hand in synchronicities, in which new ideas are born; on the other we can observe this in BCI/SST, in which higher energetic order of matter is born. Since we realize the empirical result out of the psychophysical reality/unus mundus in our world, healing of disease and synchronicities, we have indirectly proven that this world beyond "matter" and "ideas" exists.

To me this statement seems to be very convincing. Or is it not?

It would end the endless discussion about materialism and spiritualism.

My books are all written out of very overwhelming synchroncities. One of them, the Kappa synchronicity I show in Part II. It showed me that besides physical energy (outer spirit-psyche) and Jung's objective psychic energy (inner spirit-psyche) there must be a third aspect of energy: matter-psyche, the magic energy of the unus mundus (of which we, however, can only see its result, spirit-psyche with higher order or higher negentropy).

Remo

PS: See also the image in viewtopic.php?f=13&t=1156&p=13781#p13781

_________________
'Here stands the mean uncomely stone,
Tis very cheap in price!
The more it is despised by fools,
The more loved by the wise.'
(C.G. Jung, MDR, p. 253)
WebSite: http://www.paulijungunusmundus.eu


Sat Jan 28, 2012 1:49 pm
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Post Re: World Soul and Red Sine Wave
Remo Roth wrote:
First: Quantum physics has shown that we cannot know what matter really is.
Second: If we believe in Pauli we can neither know what "ideas" are.

We can however replace "Matter" and "Ideas" by the idea of the unus mundus. We then still have something metaphysical; however, we can observe creative processes out of it: {Potential being > actual being}. We can observe this on the one hand in synchronicities, in which new ideas are born; on the other we can observe this in BCI/SST, in which higher energetic order of matter is born. Since we realize the empirical result out of the psychophysical reality/unus mundus in our world, healing of disease and synchronicities, we have indirectly proven that this world beyond "matter" and "ideas" exists.

To me this statement seems to be very convincing. Or is it not?

It would end the endless discussion about materialism and spiritualism.

My books are all written out of very overwhelming synchroncities. One of them, the Kappa synchronicity I show in Part II. It showed me that besides physical energy (outer spirit-psyche) and Jung's objective psychic energy (inner spirit-psyche) there must be a third aspect of energy: matter-psyche, the magic energy of the unus mundus (of which we, however, can only see its result, spirit-psyche with higher order or higher negentropy).

Remo

PS: See also the image in viewtopic.php?f=13&t=1156&p=13781#p13781

Hi Remo, I had a dream-vision experience about you in early January. I take part in a kind of E-mail exchange group among a few close relatives and friends now. The deceased Lee has been saying since 2008 that our purpose is to "document the synchronicities". I can't post everything that happens here in public on various forum threads or on the Ann-Suzanne Blog because lots of it reveals Lee's identity as well as quite a few scientists and musicians he would have associated with or been influenced by during his life. There are now two other people who did not know him in person who are able to communicate with him. One lady I can tape record conveying his words. The other lady can take dictation from him. He said some surprising things a few days ago which the person doing the typing would not have a clue about herself. It added up to, "No, no, no, no..." about thinking that the material earth world can just be allowed to be destroyed without its loss having negative repercussions on other material and spiritual realms. Anyhow, that is a topic for another time.

I sent the dream-vision description about you to a couple of people in the E-mail group shortly after it happened. Then I completely forgot where it was in dozens of messages because the E-mail title was not about you. I was finally able to find it last night right before going to sleep. Sooooooooohhhhhhhh, I guess this must be the synchronistically best time to post it.

Quote:
1/6/2012 7:11:19 A.M. Eastern Standard Time

Then there was an episode as if I was with Dr. Remo Roth in some outdoor setting. This was very real as if in another actual realm. I was doing somersaults in the air. I was saying something to him about the Love and Light needing to be realized both inwardly and outwardly.

Then there was something about Remo painting a red wavey line somewhat like being crouched down at the level of whatever the (bottom) molding is around a wall in a room. He stopped at some point close to the "contact point" (words Lee provided). I needed to bend over to continue painting the red wave lines. Of course it seemed difficult for me to be in such a bent position. Remo was needing to come back and finish the line up to the edge which would "complete a circuit" (Lee's words again). I do not know what this means. Later while still laying down on my stomach and not fully alert, I asked Lee what the red wavey line was. He said "it is a sine wave". Again, I do not know what that means.

I heard some sounds in the real room,. I was on the living room couch. Sounded like Richard had come out to the dining table. I asked him what time it was, and he said 5:45 AM. I asked to know when this phase had just been happening.

What had been going on up to that point was a very intense episode about (a man currently in crisis). The prayers by then had turned to, May he realize the Love and Light. May he be released from all impediments (that was the word). May he realize peace and happiness. Also, the mantra of the Agni-Yoga Nicholas Roerich group was to be said for him. Aum Tat Sat Aum. Lee said to say it not three times (a trinity) but four times (a quaternity). END of 1/6/2012 experience

Brief comment: Lee said the words trinity and quaternity. This may refer to something about what some forum folks have mentioned that there must be some way to combine a trinty and a quaternity, but I do not know what that is and can't picture it in my mind. The prayer phrase above about being "released from all impediments" (Lee's phrase, not mine) turned out to be synchronistically very singnificant when I did a Google search. That's enough for now.

REMO: The red sine wave line looked more or less like this.

Image

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Suzanne

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Sat Jan 28, 2012 3:33 pm
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Post Re: Discussion of Return of the World Soul
Remo Roth wrote:
First: Quantum physics has shown that we cannot know what matter really is.
Second: If we believe in Pauli we can neither know what "ideas" are.

We can however replace "Matter" and "Ideas" by the idea of the unus mundus. We then still have something metaphysical; however, we can observe creative processes out of it: {Potential being > actual being}. We can observe this on the one hand in synchronicities, in which new ideas are born; on the other we can observe this in BCI/SST, in which higher energetic order of matter is born. Since we realize the empirical result out of the psychophysical reality/unus mundus in our world, healing of disease and synchronicities, we have indirectly proven that this world beyond "matter" and "ideas" exists.

To me this statement seems to be very convincing. Or is it not?

It would end the endless discussion about materialism and spiritualism.

My books are all written out of very overwhelming synchroncities. One of them, the Kappa synchronicity I show in Part II. It showed me that besides physical energy (outer spirit-psyche) and Jung's objective psychic energy (inner spirit-psyche) there must be a third aspect of energy: matter-psyche, the magic energy of the unus mundus (of which we, however, can only see its result, spirit-psyche with higher order or higher negentropy).

Remo

PS: See also the image in viewtopic.php?f=13&t=1156&p=13781#p13781


Remo, even if matter and psyche are the actualized manifestations of the same potential being, namely the unus mundus, this doesn't solve the eternal conflict that spirit and matter give rise to. Some people will become lost in worldliness, while others will follow the spiritual passion. I still think we are torn between Plato and Aristotle, while both of them are right in their own way. It follows from the fact that it's impossible to be both Uriah and Akbar at the same time (cf. Jung's dream about kneeling before the highest presence: here). I don't see how the paradigm of "potential being" can solve this conflict. Even if Akbar and Uriah are one in the unus mundus, they are mutually exclusive when manifested in the world. Quantum physics teaches us just this. The quantum wave potential can collapse into either of two incommensurate phenomena, e.g. light as wave or light as particle. There is no way that light can be both wave and particle. In fact, light is either light or particle. So worldly existence seems to presuppose such insoluble dichotomies, corresponding to spirit and matter. Incidentally, I used this notion of complementarity to propose a new model of the self: The Complementarian Self.

Mats Winther


Sat Jan 28, 2012 6:10 pm
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Post Re: Subtle body
I hope not to be off-topic with the following excerpt :

<<Michel Cazenave: "In its original sense, psychology should be a speech of the soul. But it seems that when psychoanalysis was formed, when it has established itself in the field of the human sciences, it stood as a natural division that the West has established between mind and nature. There was the head to one side, the body of the man on the other. in this division affirmed , and the disappearance of an intermediate world, psychoanalysis has it not been thus attempted to redact the presence of the gods to man?

James Hillman: "Psychoanalysis is the result of a particular state of mind, which was that the 19th century dying. As you said, the head and body, spirit and nature were cut off from each other .. this is, ultimately, disease specific to the West, and the analysis is also a product of the disease. Therefore, it is not, of course, thanks to it that we are able to cure the disease that gave it birth.

Now that times have changed, we can conduct a critique of psychoanalysis by demonstrating that it too has in mind, it is far too theoretical. But we tend to fall at once into the other extreme, and to carry out an excessive appreciation of the emotions and feelings. We want to be more human - more sex, more body. It seems willingly what I feel, that's the truth. The head would then take the role of Satan. You see, yet, as this is just outright reversal of the previous point of view. No, you have to leave now this false dilemma of nature and spirit. Every emotion, every feeling, every bit of my body is not just itself. It is full of stories and myths. It is a metaphor for something else. Every body has its mind while the body is first a subtle body. >>

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Sun Jan 29, 2012 10:33 am
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Post Re: sheldrake
Not that I understand the discussion or learn things by thinking but when I looked up Sheldrake a few days ago after reading Kristin's comments I have been constantly followed around on the web by ads to his site; at the Westminster Dog Show this morning and again all through the Washington Post. I suppose this is an ad strategy following the reader around but I've never experienced it before . . . Although I am fascinated by Seattle and Vancouver as I've never been before but they strike such mythic cords in the rising century set between east and west . . . And re the yin and yang as presented on the blackboard by Neils Bohr to explain to his class the meaning of particle and wave, is there not a third element? That is, the circle which holds the two together in the tai chi; zero between the positive numbers > and < representing the negative numbers in math: <0>. In the cresche sequence it would be Mary on the left and Joseph on the right and the Christ (deathless child) between. Likewise, Seattle and Vancouver in the center between East and West where Kristin is. And for pop culture mavens, the TV show Frasier presents a full quaternity rising in Seatle beginning - as the new western cycle of Tibetan Buddhism begins with the 14th Dalai Lama, starting a new sequence of 12 - this on the 14th floor in Frasier's apartment. Sorry for the poor spelling and typing. I broke my foot and must use my wife's iPad and am on Vicadin for the pain. Another thought; Sheldrake as I tend to misunderstand it links animals - dog - with people by natural causation. But in dream and myth a small animal leads the way as dog leads Khrishna to heaven and Eddie, the dog in Frasier, leads the broken family to the holistic quaternity; away the the "religion" of the Irish bar in Boston to the Hindu waitress in the coffee shop in Seatle, there to be born again. And did I mention that I dreamed of Kurt Cobain on the night he died?


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Post Re: sheldrake
Bernie Quigley wrote:
the TV show Frasier presents a full quaternity rising in Seatle beginning - this on the 14th floor in Frasier's apartment. I broke my foot and must use my wife's iPad and am on Vicadin for the pain. But in dream and myth a small animal leads the way as dog leads Khrishna to heaven and Eddie, the dog in Frasier, leads the broken family to the holistic quaternity; away the the "religion" of the Irish bar in Boston to the Hindu waitress in the coffee shop in Seatle, there to be born again.


Dear Bernie, you had me rolling on the floor with your Frasier quaternity. Absolutely brilliant! Count me a fan for life! Keep taking that Vicodin because it is transporting you to some very funny places for all of us to enjoy! and I'm with you on Eddie's greatness. That pooch was the best actor on the show!

Dear Dr. Remo,
I have another pressing question. What is your position on the mundus imaginalis of Henry Corbin? Do you endorse an Imaginal world? Have you addressed this already? I am not recalling it if you do. This is the question of 'subtle bodies' just brought up by fox. I know you define "this in-between world is the unus mundus of the alchemist Gerardus Dorneus" (Roth, 2011, p. 83). You mention that Robert Fludd believed the 'sphere of the sun,' the infans solaris, is only produced by the alchemist's observations in the intermediary realm, and you continue, "we can equate the infans solaris with the corpus subtile, the subtle body of Western esoteric tradition" (p. 83). Then you write that you prefer to call the subtle body the vegetative body since "this product of the coniunctio is only perceivable with the help of the vegetative nervous system" (p. 83).

So, if I understand then the in-between world is the unus mundus a purely potential world, and hence one that cannot be like Corbin's proposed in-between world of the mundus imaginalis (in the sense of an intermediate world that is separate of physis and psyche but partakes of both simultaneously and is populated with all manner of creatures and states, like grays, gnomes, UFOs, thrones-those angels in the throne room of the book of revelation whose description perfectly match UFOs). So you do not believe the alchemists meant a mundus imaginalis-type construct with their notion of subtle bodies? Neither Dorn nor Fludd? A working depth theory of the mundus imaginalis requires a transformation of the commonly understood intuitive function. This becomes more of a Imaginative function, acting as it does as "the preeminent mirror, the epiphanic place of the Images of the archetypal world" (Corbin, Swedenborg and Esoteric Islam, p. 12).

I wish to understand your position clearly and I apologize if I have gotten it wrong. I welcome any and all of your comments!


Tue Jan 31, 2012 6:13 am
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Post Re: Discussion of Return of the World Soul
According to M-L von Franz (Alchemy?) the alchemical subtle body corresponds to "the resurrection body" and "the glorified body" in Christianity. This is especially evident in Dorneus. The gist of the idea is that the resurrection body can be prefabricated in the alchemical opus, so that the alchemist won't have to wait for the Day of Reckoning to acquire the perfect body and tread into the life of eternal bliss. Remo Roth has written an article on the transcendent goal of alchemical mysticism, here.

In my understanding the unus mundus corresponds to the Tao of the ancient Chinese. It penetrates the physical and psychic sphere, uniting them by means of the synchronistic principle. It is the foundation of both psyche and matter, a notion similar to the neutral monism of William James. In it reside the primitive archetypes that serve as building blocks of both matter and psyche. Jung and von Franz believed that the number archetypes underlie both psyche and matter. However, it's the qualities of numbers, and not logical properties, which are the primitive elements that at every moment fluctuate and permeate the universe with their very special qualities. Mesoamerican Indians (the Maya, etc.) had a similar notion of number gods. Every day, month, year, etc., was associated with a certain number god.

Thus, the unus mundus is a metaphysical stratum, matter and psyche in potentia. Arguably, the subtle body can reside in the unus mundus among the number gods. However, this is a "theological" issue, which is open for debate.

Mats Winther


Last edited by Matswin on Tue Jan 31, 2012 3:39 pm, edited 1 time in total.



Tue Jan 31, 2012 8:27 am
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Post Re: mundus imaginalis?
Ania Teillard was a student of CG Jung. I read one of her books, very strange " Emerald egg": it's about her relation with the gods.

from the introduction of the book :
<< A mysterious call forces me to reveal these experiences. I am convinced, in fact, they exceed my personal existence. We live in a world increasingly mechanized, but there are many indications that the opposite mentality is emerging strongly [...] I consider my current position with my psychic tendencies, not as a break with Jungian analytical psychology, but as a continuation in the same way, from the personal to the supra-personal. What I experienced, seen and felt in particular states of mind, was my truth. But would it be a reality for those who read these lines? I fully understand a skeptical attitude, confused or negative to these experiences. It is far from me to want to impose my beliefs on others. I also understand that people read this story as a work of science fiction or as an adventure novel. In fact, they are authentic experiences, personal, but never contradict the great Hermetic tradition or with the most modern scientific research. On the other hand, I am fully aware of the danger to concretizate or materialize the places and people I met during my trips to the other world. But how to escape this danger, because even our language leads us to the concretization>>

About the god Saturn, in the book, it is said : "You see, the living person and the idea it represents are identical .[...] If Saturn could die, there would be no laws. " Matter and idea, united.

I do not know what to think of this book ...

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Tue Jan 31, 2012 9:57 am
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Post Re: Dogs in heaven
RonRoc - Delighted to have entertained you with the Frasier story. When I was given the Vicadin it all came back; how perfect the world was 25 years ago when I smoked cigarettes. I had to turn to Jung and Tibetan Buddhism when I was forced to quit. Incidentally, I was also given an "amnesia drug" directly after the foot operation to think the operation did not occur. When I woke up I asked when were they going to perform the operation? They said they already had. Seems spooky but 25 years ago I had a major internal (lung) operation and when I came out I had traumatic dreams and was never able to do math well again.

RE quaternity: They hide all over naive (pop) culture and tell the secret story of the culture. Frasier, in Seattle, has a shadow twin story in New York, Seinfeld, but the "son" (Christ figure) in the Seinfeld quaternity, the neurotic George, is an amplification of golem. This can with little effort be traced back through Yeats great “golem” poem, the Second Coming and the great Carl Boese/Paul Wegener movie (1920) to Rabbi Loeb’s great end-times vision of golem, possibly the shadow of “son” or the dark aspect of the Christ rising in Europe. In this context, Seinfeld suggests the European creation of America can go no further and the “new continent” must be born again to itself elsewhere; thus the Seattle quaternity and Frasier as the “new son” or the Aquarian ("new Christ").

Suggests again Seattle and the west rising and the east (NY) receding. As Madam Blavatsky predicted. This symbolism occurs elsewhere as well. "Wizard of Oz" is the quintessential American quaternity and creation myth but father, son and holy ghost are all broken figures (lion, tin man, scarecrow), waiting to be empowered by the original earth spirit of Kansas, Dorothy. Again, led into the maelstrom of new creation by the little doggie, Toto.

Error in previous post: Was not Krishna led to heaven by doggie but Yudhistira, eldest brother of Arguna. A dog brought him to the ladder of heaven at the end of life and God told him he could not bring the dog to heaven and so he chose to go to hell (with the rest of his family) instead. Then God said it was a trick; dog was dharma, “his father. “


Tue Jan 31, 2012 1:34 pm
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Post Re: Dalai lama and the Red Book
Bernie Quigley wrote:
. I had to turn to Jung and Tibetan Buddhism when I was forced to quit.


Bernie, going on a Jungian site today, I found this picture:

Image

Leslie de Galbert : ( she met Dalai lama in October 2011)

The most powerful moment for me, no doubt, came when I met His Holiness and offer the Red Book that I had brought from Paris. He knows Jung he said, but did not know the Red Book. I had the time to submit it and as he turned the pages concerned with images, I explained why I think Jung opened the path that connects the western psychology and neuroscience on the one hand, with on the other, Eastern philosophy and contemplative practices like Buddhism: exactly what he himself looks to continue in the Mind and Life Institute as he likes. ( http://www.cgjung.net/livrerouge/dalai-lama.htm )

Image

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Post Re: Discussion of Return of the World Soul
Thanks, Fox - For Americans there is a convergence because the desert is empty and Native Americans serve to some substitute degree as an unconscious although most Americans in my opinion like Hillman seem to ride the post-war American arc which is an arc of power and conquest - otherwise we would be fully ignored. Which is why I prefer to listen here. Tibetan culture is similar to Navaho with sand paintings and all and one old shaman I used to read, Sun Bear, said the Tibetans were the "lost white brother" of the Native Americans - I believe he was Lacota. The Lacota myth is that they were united with a twin with a pure nature hundreds of years ago and became divided but would be one day be united again. When Sun Bear first met some Tibetan monks in San Francisco years back he felt he had met his "twin." In fact, the Lacota I believe are actually derived from Han Chinese so it is interesting that these practices, particularly sand paintings, still exist in both and look very similar. I met some Tibetan musicians some 20 years ago when they were first going around and their songs and prayers were devoted to the Native Americans then and the buffalo spirit. The White Buffalo is prominent today in hippie lore which converges Tibetan Buddhism, Native American and Jung. I was kindly asked to write a requiem for the White Buffalo by some Native elders when it died a few years ago. I said that it was born in one millenium and zodiac cycle - Pisces - and died in another - Aquarius - linking the two. AS you follow X Files, the birth of the human/alien hybrid child of Scully (agent of Aquarius) was given in the end to the tribe of White Buffalo to be raised - white farmers in Janesville, Wisconsin.


Tue Jan 31, 2012 7:54 pm
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Post Re: Discussion of Return of the World Soul
Matswin wrote:
Remo, even if matter and psyche are the actualized manifestations of the same potential being, namely the unus mundus, this doesn't solve the eternal conflict that spirit and matter give rise to. Some people will become lost in worldliness, while others will follow the spiritual passion. I still think we are torn between Plato and Aristotle, while both of them are right in their own way. It follows from the fact that it's impossible to be both Uriah and Akbar at the same time (cf. Jung's dream about kneeling before the highest presence: here). I don't see how the paradigm of "potential being" can solve this conflict. Even if Akbar and Uriah are one in the unus mundus, they are mutually exclusive when manifested in the world. Quantum physics teaches us just this. The quantum wave potential can collapse into either of two incommensurate phenomena, e.g. light as wave or light as particle. There is no way that light can be both wave and particle. In fact, light is either light or particle. So worldly existence seems to presuppose such insoluble dichotomies, corresponding to spirit and matter. Incidentally, I used this notion of complementarity to propose a new model of the self: The Complementarian Self.


Mats, you are right that we, in this world (more exactly: in the Logos aspect of the world), always have to distinguish between the spiritual and the material world. However, when we, with the help of the Eros ego enter (or even become identical with) the psychophysical reality or unus mundus, we can observe two sorts of incarnations into our world: synchronicities as the incarnation into the spiritual world and the world of the mind, and Hermetic incarnation phenomena as the incarnation into the material world. [Though synchronicity touches also matter, it does not lead to an incarnation in the material world.]

What I am stressing is the fact that I cannot talk about the unus mundus per se. [This would be metaphysics; and like Pauli, I am "babtized anti-metaphysically."] I can only observe the result of incarnations out of the metaphysical unus mundus into our world. By observing such incarnations I can however say that there must be a world out of which these incarnations come. Thus, I believe in the epistemological limitation (constraint?): We cannot say anything about the unus mundus, but we can observe incarnations out of it into our world. Such observation proves the existence of the unus mundus (indirectly). The difference between the metaphysical and the quantum physical epistemological argument is that the former believes that it can say something about the unus mundus per se, the latter however says that we can only indirectly prove it with the help of the (empirically observed) incarnations out of it. It is the difference between what I call creation by cognition and creation by (mere) observation.

I think that the misunderstanding between us roots in the fact that some of us are used to live in the scientific world (empiricism) and other ones in Humanistics (metaphysics/theology/depth psychology). As a true believer in complementarity I "let live" both aspects, but mine is the one of science.

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I do not agree with what you have to say, but I'll defend to the death your right to say it. Voltaire


Remo

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The more loved by the wise.'
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Wed Feb 01, 2012 9:33 am
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Post Re: Discussion of Return of the World Soul
Remo, it is indeed possible to perceive the unus mundus, perhaps even dwell therein, by looking inwards. In this sense, we are capable of transcending the dichotomies of the world. Of course, this does not make for a "political" solution of the split that mankind experiences, but the individual can experience a relief from the heartwrenching conflict in his own soul. However, according to Jung's argument, the world can only remain harmonious if an enough number of people choose to individuate. Von Franz discusses the healing effect of 'synchronicity', which occurs when inner balance is achieved:

"The psychological analogy [with alchemy] seems to have to do with the fact that
when one succeeds consciously and positively to relate to an archetypal
constellation, there is a widespread effect. If the rainmaker, or the medicine
man, gets in touch in the right way with the powers of the Beyond, rain falls
over the whole country. Confucius said that if the noble man sits in his room
and has the right thoughts and writes down the right things, he is heard a
thousand miles around. The Taoist philosopher Chuang-tzu always comments on the
point that as long as the ruler of the country tries to do the right thing,
actively making good or bad laws, the empire will get worse and worse. If, on
the contrary, he retires and gets right inwardly, then the problems of the
empire are solved by themselves too." (The Feminine in Fairytales, p.179)

When the unus mundus is discussed, it is referred to as a transcendental realm. Truth is, it is transcendental only to the profane crowd who is only capable of looking outwards. It is illogical to define something as, per definition, permanently transcendental to human understanding or perception. It is similar to the universal Will of Schopenhauer. This world-creating power can be experienced, says Schopenhauer, by looking inwards, since it has given rise to our psyche, too. The paradigm of the unus mundus can have a healing effect on the world if an enough number of people can dwell in its darkness. However, this requires that one recognizes the split between body and spirit, and the overall "compartmentalized" condition of the human soul. Otherwise, there is no incitement to become whole again. That's why I am critical of those "New Agers" who try to explain away the current split in the human soul, by saying that it is illusory, and that it derives from the fact that we have adopted such categories as matter and spirit, etc. We cannot remove an illness by removing the words that denote the illness. That would be the "philosophical" stance, but I know that this isn't your standpoint.

In the ancient temple of Apollo, and among certain Gnostic sects, the initiate went through a process called "incubation", when he/she dwelled in darkness and silence for a period. The ritual of incubation, which also occurs among American Indians, represents an important aspect of religious life, but today it only continues among devote mystics. If the balance of the world is going to be maintained, we need more incubators, who can restore harmony, influenced by the unus mundus. I believe in this argument. This coincides with Jung's argument that the alchemist "had taken over the work of redeeming not man but God." The Gnostics set themselves the task of bringing back to the Pleroma the divine sparks that have fallen and are now imprisoned inside existence. In fact, when the mystic returns to the unus mundus, which is the Pleroma, he does just this. He returns the divine sparks to their origin, thus reciprocating the sacrifice that was once made when the world was created.

Mats Winther


Wed Feb 01, 2012 11:34 am
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Post Re: sheldrake
RonNoc wrote:
Dear Dr. Remo,
I have another pressing question. What is your position on the mundus imaginalis of Henry Corbin? Do you endorse an Imaginal world?


A very interesting question that forces me to define the process more exactly. I try to formulate it here (provisionally):

As I have shown above, from an scientific epistemological standpoint one cannot talk about the mundus imaginalis. This is metaphysics. Corbin does not argue as a scientist (the latter based on quantum physical epistemology), but as a representant of Humanistics and philosophy. Thus, he talks of the mundus imaginalis as being and not as potential being (Aristotle). He believes and/or states that such a world exists, and I do not know whether he, as a philosopher and psychologist of religion (Religionspsychologe), really experienced the process {potential being > actual being}; the process of observing incarnation from the unus mundus/mundus imaginalis, or Pauli's X into our world, be it the world of mind (synchronicities), be it the world of matter/physical body (BCI/SST). Thus, we see here again the conflict between the philosopher/theologist who talks in metaphysical statements and the empiricist who only believes in empirical experience [in a broaden sense; extended (expanded) by the inner experience].

Re to your special interest: In UFO encounter and abduction the experiencers observe incarnation out of the (non-observable) unus mundus. When they see UFOs and aliens, they experience (non-sustainable) incarnation out of the (non-observable) unus mundus into the intermediary world. Thus, one can say that they are the observers of (experiencable) incarnation into the in-between world.

These experiences are, however, non-sustainable since the experiencers are not conscious about the fact that they are thrown into the world of Eros: with the help of the forced state of the Eros ego they experience incarnation out of the unus mundus (what, however, does not mean that they know what the latter is). Since they live (unconsciously) in the Eros ego, such incarnation remains, however, in an intermediary world. This is why the UFOs remain "subtle" and the contact with the aliens is telepathic (i.e., otherworldly). With the help of "inner UFO experiences", i.e. BCI, we become however able to transfer these observations of incarnation in the "subtle in-between world" to the world of the mind and body/matter. Only then such incarnation is really incarnated and thus sustainable. This is the progress of BCI compared with UFO encounter and abduction.

With his method of regressive hypnosis John Mack tries (unconsciously) to "force" the abductees back into the Eros state. Then they repeat the experience more consciously. Perhaps this is the reason why such a procedure has a healing effect on the trauma. Perhaps in this way they are also able to transfer the experience of incarnation into the in-between world (out of the unus mundus) to the world of the Logos. (I am not sure about the truth of this statement; one should know the process more exactly to decide this.) I think, however, that John Mack has yet seen the similarity of his method with BCI.

Remo

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Tis very cheap in price!
The more it is despised by fools,
The more loved by the wise.'
(C.G. Jung, MDR, p. 253)
WebSite: http://www.paulijungunusmundus.eu


Wed Feb 01, 2012 12:25 pm
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Post Re: Tao and economy
Mats quote of von Franz here on the Taoist sage advising not to "do the right thing" but to go to the country and retire, precisely describes the difference between Keynes and Hayek as presented in Nicholas Wapshoot's recent book: "Keynes Hayek: The Clash that Defined Modern Econmics." Possibly nothing describes our changing world in the externals today as the shift from Keynes (and his shadow, Marx) to Hayek in Europe in particular and here in the United States with Ron Paul, a Hayek champion. Paul now has a solid core of support across the United States and I had the opportunity to vote for him in the NH primary a few weeks ago.


Wed Feb 01, 2012 1:15 pm
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Post unus mundus and in-between world
RonNoc wrote:
So, if I understand then the in-between world is the unus mundus a purely potential world, and hence one that cannot be like Corbin's proposed in-between world of the mundus imaginalis (in the sense of an intermediate world that is separate of physis and psyche but partakes of both simultaneously and is populated with all manner of creatures and states, like grays, gnomes, UFOs, thrones-those angels in the throne room of the book of revelation whose description perfectly match UFOs). So you do not believe the alchemists meant a mundus imaginalis-type construct with their notion of subtle bodies? Neither Dorn nor Fludd? A working depth theory of the mundus imaginalis requires a transformation of the commonly understood intuitive function. This becomes more of a Imaginative function, acting as it does as "the preeminent mirror, the epiphanic place of the Images of the archetypal world" (Corbin, Swedenborg and Esoteric Islam, p. 12).

Ron,

First: What I say here is still provisional. Perhaps further discussion can change my opinion a little.

I do not know whether I can answer your questions completely. As I wrote above, to argueing really in a scientific way, we must distinguish the non-observable unus mundus, Pauli's X, from the in-between world, which is observable in the state of the Eros ego. This would also clear a discrepancy I had up until now in my theory. In Part II, I wrote first that the unus mundus is not observable. Then, however, with the help of some of the most important dreams of Pauli's I show that this world is space-, time-, mass- and motionless. Such a statement creates of course a contradiction and I have to correct it. With the help of your question I was able to clarify this:

We must distinguish between the non-observable unus mundus, and the observable in-between world, into which the incarnation first happens. Such incarnation is observable with the help of the "altered consciousness" or Eros ego. This is what happens in UFO encounter and abduction. In this way the contradiction is removed. Then, we have to transfer the observation in the in-between world into a fact in the world of the Logos ego.

This distinction is, however, only important if one insists in the strict epistemological confinement. For our life as mystics the distinction is not so important. Thus, some people can say that they observe the unus mundus, some other that they observe the intermediate world. The latter, however, is as well physical and psychical, or in fact none of both but the observable psychophysical reality. Using this terminology, we can say that the intermediate world of UFO experiencers is the observable in-between world.

Re Hermetic alchemy: As you quoted above I am writing in my book that the alchemists first created the intermediary world. Since they did not know the quantum physical process of {potential being > actual being} (and quantum physics at all) they were not able to distinguish between the unus mundus and the observable intermediate world. But they felt that such a world is only created in the moment of its observation (which is a conclusion of quantum physical epistemology).

Remo

PS: If you have further questions that I did not answer yet, please ask.

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'Here stands the mean uncomely stone,
Tis very cheap in price!
The more it is despised by fools,
The more loved by the wise.'
(C.G. Jung, MDR, p. 253)
WebSite: http://www.paulijungunusmundus.eu


Wed Feb 01, 2012 2:41 pm
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Post Re: Discussion of Return of the World Soul
Matswin wrote:
Remo, it is indeed possible to perceive the unus mundus, perhaps even dwell therein, by looking inwards.

When the unus mundus is discussed, it is referred to as a transcendental realm. Truth is, it is transcendental only to the profane crowd who is only capable of looking outwards.


Mats, perhaps the above differenciation between the non-observable unus mundus and the observable in-between world clears our differences?

Remo

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'Here stands the mean uncomely stone,
Tis very cheap in price!
The more it is despised by fools,
The more loved by the wise.'
(C.G. Jung, MDR, p. 253)
WebSite: http://www.paulijungunusmundus.eu


Wed Feb 01, 2012 2:54 pm
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Post Re: Discussion of Return of the World Soul
We risk creating confusion, I think, with the notion of a non-observable, transcendental realm of the unus mundus. If "incarnation" occurs at the same instance that consciousness intervenes, then we could equally well say that the unus mundus is observable, couldn't we? Compare with quantum physics. The quantum wave-packet flies through space. It is a mathematical construct and not a thing, per se, but this is how light is mathematically represented when not observed. However, at the same instant that it is observed, it immediately takes the form as either a stream of photons, or light waves. This means that the wave-packet was observable, although it immediately incarnated into either of its two physical forms. What does it mean to say that the mathematical notion of light is non-observable? Of course, a mathematical description is not a physical thing, so it cannot be observed. But a quantum phenomenon can be observed, although the intervention of consciousness affects it, and makes the wave-function "collapse".

Moreover, if the building blocks of unus mundus are number qualities, then those qualities could be sensed, at least theoretically. There is nothing otherworldly about number qualities, it's just that the profane crowd won't take heed of such things. It transcends their level of consciousness. I think we must better define what we mean when we discuss the subjects of incarnation and potentiality. Arguably, the potential world is wholly observable as it emits a quality, possibly a number quality, as an echo to the intrusion of consciousness. What does it mean to say that it is non-observable, then?

Mats Winther


Wed Feb 01, 2012 3:19 pm
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Post Re: Discussion of Return of the World Soul
Matswin wrote:
We risk creating confusion, I think, with the notion of a non-observable, transcendental realm of the unus mundus. If "incarnation" occurs at the same instance that consciousness intervenes, then we could equally well say that the unus mundus is observable, couldn't we? Compare with quantum physics. The quantum wave-packet flies through space. It is a mathematical construct and not a thing, per se, but this is how light is mathematically represented when not observed. However, at the same instant that it is observed, it immediately takes the form as either a stream of photons, or light waves. This means that the wave-packet was observable, although it immediately incarnated into either of its two physical forms. What does it mean to say that the mathematical notion of light is non-observable? Of course, a mathematical description is not a physical thing, so it cannot be observed. But a quantum phenomenon can be observed, although the intervention of consciousness affects it, and makes the wave-function "collapse".

Moreover, if the building blocks of unus mundus are number qualities, then those qualities could be sensed, at least theoretically. There is nothing otherworldly about number qualities, it's just that the profane crowd won't take heed of such things. It transcends their level of consciousness. I think we must better define what we mean when we discuss the subjects of incarnation and potentiality. Arguably, the potential world is wholly observable as it emits a quality, possibly a number quality, as an echo to the intrusion of consciousness. What does it mean to say that it is non-observable, then?


Mats, the wave/particle duality is not an example of acausal incarnation during the act of observation in quantum physics. On the contrary, this is a willfull and thus a causal act.

You are talking about the so-called double slit experiment [see Gary Zukav, The Dancing Wu Li Masters, pp. 66 or http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Double-slit_experiment ]: when one slit is open, we observe light as particles (photons); when, however, two slits are open we observe light as a wave. This is the paradox of the particle/wave duality of light. It is used to show the principle of complementarity of quantum physics. The latter tells us that it is not possible to talk about matter per se (thus, Pauli's and Jung's definition of matter as X, belonging to the non-observable unus mundus). It depends on the observational instrument whether we see the particle or the wave aspect of matter. But, as I said, we are never able to know what matter really is.

[The same argument Pauli used in the discussion with Jung to show that also what the latter calls the collective unconscious is in fact this X of which we can never know what it is per se. Thus, they eventually agreed that "matter", "psyche" and "spirit" all belong to this non-observable X and thus are metaphysical terms; and we can only observe incarnation out of this X into our world, but never really know what this X is. But later, Jung was not able to see the result of the above definition: he went on to see the archetypes and the collective unconscious as being and never understood that the X is potential being, since he did not understand the acausality of the quantum physical quantum leap.]

The double slit experiment and quantum physical complementarity inspired me to my hypothesis of the complementarity of consciousness: if we withdraw the "projection" of the observational instrument into the physical instruments (i.e., into extraverted sensation), we can postulate that we can observe in two different ways: with the "outer instrument" of physics (as for example in the double slit experiment) or with the "inner instrument". We use the outer instrument in what I call the Logos ego, in which we are based on extraverted sensation and thinking, i.e., on the CNS and the brain. We can, however, also use the inner observational instrument. This is the state of consciousness that I call the Eros ego. It is based on (deeply introverted) vegetative sensation and feeling (in the meaning of Jung as the worth-giving function), and thinking is consciously disabled (during being in this state). It is based on the vegetative nervous system (VNS) [In the US one calls it the sympathetic ns, but in fact it consists of sympathetic and parasympathetic nerves] in the belly. Michael Gershon, who discovered this “gut brain” has empirically proven that it functions independently from the “head brain.” [See also http://altmedangel.com/gutbrain.htm ] In BCI one switches consciously into the belly brain or gut brain.

Thus, while the Logos ego uses extraverted thinking and sensation (the brain and the CNS) as its observational instrument – symbolically seen we can also say that they behave as a particle – the Eros ego uses the vegetative sensation of the vegetative nervous system (the belly brain and the VNS) – symbolically seen behaving like a wave.

One can use the Eros ego consciously or unconsciously. The unconscious case is the case of UFO experiencers: They are thrown into the observation with the help of the VNS and the belly brain without realizing this consciously. In this way they observe incarnation out of the unus mundus into the in-between world (only observable with the help of the belly brain and the VNS). Since they are unconscious about this state, they experience the vegetative phenomena in an extraverted way.

In the conscious case one switches consciously from the Logos ego and the CNS into the Eros ego and the VNS, as for example in BCI. In this way one can consciously experience the incarnation out of the unus mundus into the intermediary world in one’s inside. Since one is conscious about being in the Eros state, such incarnation is sustainable.

Back to physics: In the double slit experiment one decides by will whether one opens one or two slits. Thus, this decision is a willful and thus causal act. It has nothing to do with the a-causality of the quantum leap.

I will describe the quantum leap in one of the next post.

Remo

_________________
'Here stands the mean uncomely stone,
Tis very cheap in price!
The more it is despised by fools,
The more loved by the wise.'
(C.G. Jung, MDR, p. 253)
WebSite: http://www.paulijungunusmundus.eu


Thu Feb 02, 2012 8:35 am
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Post Re: World Soul and Red Sine Wave
Suzanne wrote:
Quote:
1/6/2012 7:11:19 A.M. Eastern Standard Time

Then there was an episode as if I was with Dr. Remo Roth in some outdoor setting. This was very real as if in another actual realm. I was doing somersaults in the air. I was saying something to him about the Love and Light needing to be realized both inwardly and outwardly.

Then there was something about Remo painting a red wavey line somewhat like being crouched down at the level of whatever the (bottom) molding is around a wall in a room. He stopped at some point close to the "contact point" (words Lee provided). I needed to bend over to continue painting the red wave lines. Of course it seemed difficult for me to be in such a bent position. Remo was needing to come back and finish the line up to the edge which would "complete a circuit" (Lee's words again). I do not know what this means. Later while still laying down on my stomach and not fully alert, I asked Lee what the red wavey line was. He said "it is a sine wave". Again, I do not know what that means.


Suzanne, I do not really know what your dream could mean. My only association with the red line is the following: It looks like the mood in a depression. When we give antidepressiva, we cut the "sine wave" before it has reached the edge. Thus, it is much better to let patients without antidepressiva (of course only when they are under control) and have a look what happens with the help of SST/BCI. Then the depression talks in inner images, and they lead out of it. Thus, first the patients do not need "light, but "darkness." Out of the darkness of the depression the new light, the inner images develop using SST/BCI, and these contain the healing process.

Remo

_________________
'Here stands the mean uncomely stone,
Tis very cheap in price!
The more it is despised by fools,
The more loved by the wise.'
(C.G. Jung, MDR, p. 253)
WebSite: http://www.paulijungunusmundus.eu


Thu Feb 02, 2012 9:52 am
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Post The collapse of the wave function and the quantum leap
In the 20ies of the last century physics was confronted with the following situation (first felt as catastrophic):

In the measuring of a quantum physical process (measuring act; observational act) -- all physical observation is quantitative measuring -- the physicists realized the following situation: When they observed with the same observational instrument though they always used exactly the same measuring tool, they measured different states. I tried to show this situation with the example of measuring the tallness of an individual: The first measuring results is 171 cm, the second, 198, the third 183, the fourth 169, etc. Every result is different. Of course in the macrophysical measuring process this result is not possible, but it shows the situation in the quantum physical situation.

Physicists were consternated. They realized that the result was a-causal in the meaning that the same "cause" led to many different "effects." According to Newton this cannot be true, since the differential equations of motion are continuous and thus causal. Thus in every measurement there should be more or less the same result (they can differ a little because of the impreciseness of the measuring tool). Physicists were shocked since they realized that in the observational act the deterministic or causal process was interrupted by acausality. Thus Pauli writes that

Quote:
In microphysics [quantum physics; RFR] … every observation is an interference of indeterminable extent … and interrupts the causal connection between phenomena preceding and subsequent to it. The indeterminable interaction between observer and observed system in every measurement thus makes it impossible to carry through the deterministic conception of phenomena postulated in classical physics. Even under well-defined physical conditions it is in general possible to make only statistical predictions of the results of future observations, while the result of the single observation is not determined by any [mathematical; RFR] laws ... The course of events, taking place according to predetermined rules, is interrupted by this observation, and a transformation (Wandlung) is evoked with an unpredictable result, a modification which is therefore conceived of as happening in an essentially non-automatic manner. [Emphasis mine]
[See Return I, p. 153-154]

Eventually, Erwin Schroedinger found the solution (as much as I know this happend during being in holidays with his wife and his mistress): One has to describe the situation before the measuring act as the so-called wave function (a colleague who is also a quantum physicist called this the quantum entanglement [the background of the wave function; RFR] in Schroedinger's love life ...). It is a so-called linear combination of the potentiality of all possible results (f = ia + ib + ic + id ... etc.). In the moment of the observation the wave function collapses, e.g. all terms except one "disappear" (become zero) and only one is realized (actualized) (in the example in the first measurement it could be b, in the second a, in the third d; etc). This is the so-called quantum jump or quantum leap. Since one does not know which one of all the potential possibilities (ia; ib; ic; etc) becomes actual (real), the process is acausal: The same "cause" produces different "effects." In this way talking of cause and effect becomes meaningless. Thus, the situation has become a-causal: there is no real cause for the "effect."

[As A. I. Miller describes in Deciphering the the Cosmic Number, p. 115 Zurich physicists of the twenties were very promiscuitive. It seems that they projected the quantum physical situation into their love live and when the "erotic wave function" collapsed they looked for a new girl-friend ;) IMO, this is an example of how the unconscious personal situation can be the precondition for a new theory. ]

Eventually, the physicists decided to describe the situation as follows: They undertook very many measurements and defined a statistical distribution of these many measuring results. This is called the replacement of the singular acausal quantum leap (not describable mathematically) by the so-called statistical causality. But, in fact, this is cheating! One cannot say anything about the behaviour of the single process anymore, thus one describes it statistically. However, with the help of this trick it was possible to create the nuclear bomb (and nuclear power plants) -- Hiroshima, mon amour?

When we now look at the inner process corresponding to the physical measuring act we can say that with the help of the (willless!) Eros ego (in BCI) it becomes possible to observe the result of the singular process [which is not observable with the means of physics!]. This result I call the observation of spontaneous (i.e., acausal) impulses out of the unus mundus that create inner images (Bilder aus dem Bauch; images out of the belly brain) and vegetive sensations. These images and sensations are created spontaneously, i.e., acausally, i.e., without producing them by will. They happen in the moment of the kairos, and the ego in the state of wu wei, active passiveness, just observes them. Perhaps such images arise, perhaps not, and the ego has to accept this mode of uncertainty consciously.

Since every acausal act is "an act of creation" (W. Pauli) or "an act of creation in time" (C.G. Jung), the observation of such images and vegetative sensations is a creation or incarnation act: Out of the non-observable unus mundus something real is created in our world (in quantum physics in the world of matter; in BCI in the intermediary world).

This is the real revolution of the quantum physical observational act, and of the spontaneous view of inner images and/or vegetative sensations in BCI. It is what Hermetic alchemy looked for but since it did not know the difference between causality and acausality it did not really succeed. Thus, quantum physics is a progress compared with Hermetic alchemy, and BCI is an even greater progress.

This is also why I cannot agree anymore with the statement of MLvF and C.G. Jung that in alchemy there is everything that we need to understand the unconscious. We also need the inclusion of the acausal quantum leap observable in the state of the Eros ego (which is not defined in Jung's depth psychology). This was the insight that eventually separated me from the two depth psychologists. Since then I am a "psychophysicist," and the result was that I had to become a healer instead of a psychoanalyst.

But as you perhaps know: The student that did not overgrow his teacher was not a good student (we say in German).

Remo

_________________
'Here stands the mean uncomely stone,
Tis very cheap in price!
The more it is despised by fools,
The more loved by the wise.'
(C.G. Jung, MDR, p. 253)
WebSite: http://www.paulijungunusmundus.eu


Thu Feb 02, 2012 11:23 am
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Post Physicists were unconsciously looking for the coniunctio
Remo Roth wrote:
Eventually, Erwin Schroedinger found the solution (as much as I know this happend during being in holidays with his wife and his mistress): One has to describe the situation before the measuring act as the so-called wave function (a colleague who is also a quantum physicist called this the quantum entanglement [the background of the wave function; RFR] in Schroedinger's love life ...). ...

[As A. I. Miller describes in Deciphering the the Cosmic Number, p. 115 Zurich physicists of the twenties were very promiscuitive. It seems that they projected the quantum physical situation into their love live and when the "erotic wave function" collapsed they looked for a new girl-friend ;) IMO, this is an example of how the unconscious personal situation can be the precondition for a new theory. ]

Eventually, the physicists decided to describe the situation as follows: They undertook very many measurements and defined a statistical distribution of these many measuring results. This is called the replacement of the singular acausal quantum leap (not describable mathematically) by the so-called statistical causality. But, in fact, this is cheating! One cannot say anything about the behaviour of the single process anymore, thus one describes it statistically. However, with the help of this trick it was possible to create the nuclear bomb (and nuclear power plants) -- Hiroshima, mon amour?


What I described above in a slightly ironic way, is however a deep psychological truth: The physicists did not realize that they were unconscious of being influenced by the anima mundi, the world soul. They were not able to differentiate their feeling function and thus in a projected way unconsciously looked for the mystical union with Her in the Hermetic alchemical coniunctio -- and invented the nuclear bomb ...

This is why it is an urgent task to help to create the "anti-nuclear bomb" (Gregory Sova)

Remo

_________________
'Here stands the mean uncomely stone,
Tis very cheap in price!
The more it is despised by fools,
The more loved by the wise.'
(C.G. Jung, MDR, p. 253)
WebSite: http://www.paulijungunusmundus.eu


Last edited by Remo Roth on Thu Feb 02, 2012 8:54 pm, edited 1 time in total.



Thu Feb 02, 2012 1:58 pm
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Post Re: Discussion of Return of the World Soul
I was thinking that, resulting from the intervention of consciousness, a quality or "form" will emerge from the unus mundus, which is of an unpredictable nature, hence indeterminable (acasual). However, the law of meaningful coincidences, synchronicity, is involved in the process. Although we can predict that a form will emerge, it is not predictable what morphology or structure the form will have. This is what underlies divinatory practices, I think. Consciousness directs its gaze at the sea of the unus mundus, and unpredictable forms begin to emerge. It reminds me of Stanislaw Lem's novel Solaris, which has been filmed by Andrei Tarkovsky. The planet which is wholly covered by a sea, is under observation from a spaceship. Strange shapes begin to emerge on account of it being observed. Is the sea observable or is it non-observable? If we argue that it is non-observable, on account of the unpredictability of the forms, then it's as if these forms were present in the sea beforehand. In that case their emergence depends on preexistence. However, if they are truly new creations, then consciousness is given a prominent role.

When the Spirit "brooded upon the face of the waters", the world began to emerge out of the unus mundus. The sea is being observed, thus new creation takes place. If the sea were non-observable, how come it can give rise to new forms? Observation depends on predictability. If the gaze of consciousness is directed at the unus mundus, then we know that we are going to see something, although it is not predictable what we are going to see. But this new creation is related to the nature of consciousness and the archetypes of natural numbers.

If we say that something is by definition, non-observable, it implies that the preexistence of form is postulated, because there must exist something that the mind is not capable of observing. It also means that there is a secret connection between the human mind and this transcendent reality, since the latter always knows to keep itself hidden. It behaves like a squirrel that hides behind the tree when you walk by. How can we postulate such a strange notion? Arguably, I can only say that it transcends my faculties for the time being, but in the future I might have acquired the ability to see what I can't see today. Similarly, we can today observe the ultraviolet patterns on flowers that were earlier only visible to the insects and certain birds.

Jung's notion of the archetype, as such, has a Kantian flavour ("Ding an sich"). The archetype inhabits the "psychoid layer", thus forever transcending the categories of consciousness. I have problems with such Dinge an sich, i.e., things that are by nature forever barred from human consciousness. How can anything be, on principle and forevermore, non-observable? So I don't believe in a notion of a "potential existence that is non-observable". But it needn't mean that much to your theory if you should abandon the notion of absolute transcendence, and instead adopt the notion of a relative transcendence. However, it might be important in the future. Kantian philosophy went aground on the reef of the noumenon and thing-in-itself. I fear that the same thing will happen to the paradigm of the unus mundus if it depends on notions of absolute transcendence.

Mats Winther


Last edited by Matswin on Fri Feb 03, 2012 7:16 am, edited 1 time in total.



Thu Feb 02, 2012 7:38 pm
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Post Re: Dalai lama and the Red Book
fox wrote:
Image

Leslie de Galbert : ( she met Dalai lama in October 2011)

The most powerful moment for me, no doubt, came when I met His Holiness and offer the Red Book that I had brought from Paris. He knows Jung he said, but did not know the Red Book. I had the time to submit it and as he turned the pages concerned with images, I explained why I think Jung opened the path that connects the western psychology and neuroscience on the one hand, with on the other, Eastern philosophy and contemplative practices like Buddhism: exactly what he himself looks to continue in the Mind and Life Institute as he likes. ( http://www.cgjung.net/livrerouge/dalai-lama.htm )


Perhaps we should much more try to find the guru in ourseves instead of staring at this ever smiling guru - I do not like his smile at all - of another culture which is not at all ours.

This woman does not feel her real roots anymore, and thus is fascinated by some sort of a Buddhist guru.

Question to all: Do you like this ever smiling guru who tells us that suffering is overcome by meditation? I am wondering. At least, it is not my way of mastering my life. I am living in a culture that has learned to suffer consciously, and only in this way learns to overcome pain.

As much as I know this was also Jung's opinion. But today, going East seems to be the way to repress the real life of our painful world.

Remo

_________________
'Here stands the mean uncomely stone,
Tis very cheap in price!
The more it is despised by fools,
The more loved by the wise.'
(C.G. Jung, MDR, p. 253)
WebSite: http://www.paulijungunusmundus.eu


Thu Feb 02, 2012 9:09 pm
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Post Re: Discussion of Return of the World Soul
the Dalai Lama, forbidden visit to Switzerland!

the new Swiss flag :

Image

( it's just a joke :P )

More seriously, between 2008 and 2010, I had a dozen dream about the Dalai Lama. I had not read any book by him, (I decided to read one, finally), I am not a Buddhist or Asian. And recently, I had another dream about the Red Book, so I was very interressed by the image of the Dalai Lama with the Red Book.

It's "funny" because today I ordered a book on yoga :) because of an "old" dream :
I have to go to dinner. (On the initiative of my father?) We are few. Everyone sits down to eat except me. I am standing before a bookcase to look at books that seem to interest me much. I wonder if it's not impolite in comparison with other guests but it did not seem to upset them. I am looking for a book. And suddenly I find myself in front of another bookcase that contains large red leather-bound books. They all have the same title: "YOGA". It's dark. In fact, I'm in a sort of corridor at each end, there is a bookcase and one end of the corridor is rather shrouded in darkness and in the other end is illuminated. I return to the first bookcase.

I am interested in Jung's psychology so in the first bookcase, there must be Jungian books.

And this morning, I had a very short dream where a woman comes up to me to give me a red book.

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There are those that look at things the way they are, and ask why? I dream of things that never were, and ask why not? ( Robert Kennedy quoting George Bernard Shaw )


Thu Feb 02, 2012 11:20 pm
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Post Re: Discussion of Return of the World Soul
fox wrote:
the Dalai Lama, forbidden visit to Switzerland!

the new Swiss flag :

Image

( it's just a joke :P )


Yes, fox, I understand. But remember what I quoted above (from your compatriot):

I do not agree with what you have to say, but I'll defend to the death your right to say it. Voltaire

The Dalai Lama is not to my taste; but perhaps it is to yours.

Remo

_________________
'Here stands the mean uncomely stone,
Tis very cheap in price!
The more it is despised by fools,
The more loved by the wise.'
(C.G. Jung, MDR, p. 253)
WebSite: http://www.paulijungunusmundus.eu


Fri Feb 03, 2012 6:05 am
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