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The UNUS MUNDUS forum of Psychovision (Remo F. Roth) invites discussion of theoretical and practical issues of a possible union of Carl Jung's depth psychology with quantum physical principles.
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 World Clock/Cosmic Clock? 
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Joined: Thu May 04, 2006 8:31 pm
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Post World Clock/Cosmic Clock?
Hi my name is Ryan and this is my first post.

I've read about the world clock in some of Jung's works, but yet I truly don't understand the implications of it. I mention this because I had a dream/vision in which I too was presented with one, but I have no idea what it might be trying to say. I will describe the clock to you, and I hope you can help me understand this symbol better. I am assuming that this image was of a more collective nature- from the collective unconscious, than relating to me directly, but yet I believe there is an educative element to it; something to be learned.

I am facing a circular clock with a white face, there are the standard numbers 1 - 12 where they should be, but there are no hands to tell the time. In their place are rather three symbols. Where 12 is located I saw the symbol for the conjunction of Sun/Moon. In the center of the clock where the hands would be attached is the pisces symbol of two fish swimming in opposite directions, one on top of the other. It also felt similar to the image of Tao/Yin-Yang. And finally where the 6 is, there is the sign for infinity- the figure 8 on its side. There was also the sesation that the symbols were to be 'read' from top to bottom in the sense that the conjunction of the sun and moon led to the pisces symbol which in turn led to infinity.

Though I am familiar with the information relating to each of these symbols, I have never had an "Ah-ha" moment in relation to what this particular dream was trying to say.

My feeling is that the conjuction of Sun/Moon takes place in the 'head' as the head mediates between the external world and the inner world; extraversion/introversion. However, one moves deeper into the center of the clock/body to find the Tao/Inner Christ of the heart who is the mediator between the sun/moon conjunction and the infinity of time/space. I can't see further into this process, if indeed it is a process. Since there were no hands on the clock, there was also a distict sensation that it was a 'static' image. Thank you for any help you might offer.

Ryan

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"Let us go then, you and I,
When the evening is spread out against the sky
Like a patient etherised upon a table;"
-T.S. Eliot: The Love Song of J. Alfred Prufrock


Fri May 05, 2006 12:04 pm
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Post 
Hey Ryan -

What a dream! That is really intense. Much could be speculated. Have you checked out the 'coniunctio' section of the forum yet, as there is a thread concerning the "World Clock Vison, #2 and #3, and AION" you'd probably be into. It seems you've plugged into the unus mundus - the zone! - in a big way via that dream. The number sequences and symbolic references are quite pertinent, that's for sure. Looking forward to hearing if anything else comes up for you around the dream now.


Kristin

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Sat May 06, 2006 7:30 am
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Post Re: World Clock/Cosmic Clock?
Ryan

Ryan wrote:
I am facing a circular clock with a white face, there are the standard numbers 1 - 12 where they should be, but there are no hands to tell the time. In their place are rather three symbols. Where 12 is located I saw the symbol for the conjunction of Sun/Moon. In the center of the clock where the hands would be attached is the pisces symbol of two fish swimming in opposite directions, one on top of the other. It also felt similar to the image of Tao/Yin-Yang. And finally where the 6 is, there is the sign for infinity- the figure 8 on its side. There was also the sesation that the symbols were to be 'read' from top to bottom in the sense that the conjunction of the sun and moon led to the pisces symbol which in turn led to infinity.


Thank you so much for your world clock dream, which is for me an equivalent to Wolfgang Pauli's dream.

Further, it is an independent empirical confirmation of my theory of the Eros consciousness which is able to observe the Eros Self respectively the union of the Logos Self with the Eros Self, the unio corporalis of Hermetic alchemy, the goal of which is the union of the (reformed) ego with the unus mundus

Here my interpretation:

Since you have the feeling that a process is symbolized in this static object, I'd like to take it like this:

The clock does not have any hands, thus it is a symbol of eternal time, of what I call the timeless time -- eternity. As you mention, this time has a body, the clock (ie space), ie the clock symbolizes the eternal spacetime. It is static and corresponds like this to Einstein's view of his concept of spacetime.

Now the process. Above is the conjunction of the sun and the moon. This seems to be a symbol of the eclipse. The eclipse is for me a symbol of the transformation from the Logos consciousness to the Eros consciousness, from the head brain to the belly brain.

One of the possible forms of this process is what I call the Body-Centered Imagination.

If one enters this process one becomes aware of the deeper process of the transformation of the hostile opposites (Christ/antichrist = the two fishes of pisces) into the bipolarity of the Tao of Taoism: yang transforms into yin, and in a parallel process yin transforms again into yang. However, as also in Hermetic alchemy, the latter yang is not the same anymore as before, but it is an energy (what I call spirit-psyche) with higher negentropy, i.e. a new causal world with new laws and "new life".

Thus, with the above symbol (pisces -> Tai Gi of Taoism) you dreamt -- I guess decades before its formulation -- as some sort of a nucleus my whole theory I describe in Chapter 4 of my The Holy Wedding, see http://www.psychovision.ch/hknw/holy_we ... ntents.htm ... It is the so-called unio corporalis of Hermetic alchemy I discuss there.

If one enters this process, one comes to the bottom of the universe. As you mention, the symbol is a clock, ie a body. Thus it has to do with space. But it has also to do with time. Thus it is spacetime, but an infinite one. It is the spaceless space and the timeless time -- the unus mundus at the bottom of the universe. Becoming one with this world behind the world and behind or even beyond the physical universe is what Gerardus Dorneus called the union of the (reformed) ego with the unus mundus.

What I am especially interested in is the question: Did you experience this unity? Mostly it has to do with almost incredible feelings of bliss -- the union of the mystic with God.

Thanks again for sharing this dream with us, Ryan.

Remo

_________________
'Here stands the mean uncomely stone,
Tis very cheap in price!
The more it is despised by fools,
The more loved by the wise.'
(C.G. Jung, MDR, p. 253)
WebSite: http://www.paulijungunusmundus.eu


Last edited by Remo Roth on Sat May 06, 2006 10:26 am, edited 1 time in total.



Sat May 06, 2006 9:31 am
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Post Thanks!
Once again I'd like to thank all of you, folks, for sharing with me these incredibly deep experiences. I am really moved about what happens here -- in the infinity of the internet ...

Remo

_________________
'Here stands the mean uncomely stone,
Tis very cheap in price!
The more it is despised by fools,
The more loved by the wise.'
(C.G. Jung, MDR, p. 253)
WebSite: http://www.paulijungunusmundus.eu


Sat May 06, 2006 9:38 am
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Post 
First, thank you for the replies!

Thankyou, Kristin I will look into those other sections. I don't know how plugged in I am to the Unus Mundus, but I did have the feeling the dream was bigger than me.

Second, Remo, in response to what you said:

Quote:
Now the process. Above is the conjunction of the sun and the moon. This seems to be a symbol of the eclipse. The eclipse is for me a symbol of the transformation from the Logos consciousness to the Eros consciousness, from the head brain to the belly brain.


I actually had the dream last summer/fall a few days before a solar eclipse that passed through the pennisula of Spain, without my knowing there was going to be an eclipse!

Also, I was wondering if you could explain the difference (If there is one) between: 'Eros consciousness' and a 'union of conscious and unconscious' as I had understood the sun/moon conjunction? I have begun reading your work on psychovision, but I still have much to read.

The 'reformed ego' that you talk about

Quote:
Becoming one with this world behind the world and behind or even beyond the physical universe is what Gerardus Dorneus called the union of the (reformed) ego with the unus mundus.


What is the 'reformed ego'? Would it have a place on the clock in my dream?

And finally, to answer your question:

Quote:
What I am especially interested in is the question: Did you experience this unity? Mostly it has to do with almost incredible feelings of bliss -- the union of the mystic with God.


I didn't experience unity or bliss, rather complete stillness. I forgot to write that the white clock was as if suspended in complete darkness, in black space, so the static sensation was a result of this, because nothing moved. That is why I suggested the dream was very impersonal; the corresponding emotions that accompany bliss and unity or even the banal, were completely absent. It was as if a window opened and I had the opportunity to witness a stucture or image beyond me.

Thank you, again!
Ryan

_________________
"Let us go then, you and I,
When the evening is spread out against the sky
Like a patient etherised upon a table;"
-T.S. Eliot: The Love Song of J. Alfred Prufrock


Sat May 06, 2006 11:16 am
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Post 
Ryan wrote:
I actually had the dream last summer/fall a few days before a solar eclipse that passed through the pennisula of Spain, without my knowing there was going to be an eclipse!


Thus it was a synchronicity. Since the vision seems to be so impersonal, it could be that it prepares us for coming events. I guess we can interpret it in the way that you have, as some other humans, too, the task to enter the Eros consciousness and do Body Centered Imagination (or any similar method; see below).

Quote:
Also, I was wondering if you could explain the difference (If there is one) between: 'Eros consciousness' and a 'union of conscious and unconscious' as I had understood the sun/moon conjunction? I have begun reading your work on psychovision, but I still have much to read.


Yes, there is a difference. The "union of conscious and unconscious" Carl Jung talks of is the method of Active Imagination. In it one talks to the figures in the unconscious. Since talking has mostly much to do with the Logos, I guess that Active Imagination is the connection of the Logos ego with what I call the Logos aspect of the Self (= Carl Jung's Self).

In your image it would be a relationship of the little sun with the big sun, since Carl Jung's Self is sun like and not moon like. Only the Anima is moon like.

If you read Chapter 4 of my The Holy Wedding in the Internet, you will see that I propose behind the Logos Self of Jung what I call the Eros Self. It is the queen of the Hermetic alchemical opus, of the so-called unio corporalis, in which the old king enters the womb of her, dies, dissolves into atoms and like this becomes the sperm for the creation of the new king.

The parallel aspect of this process happening in the unus mundus is the transformation of the Logos consciousness into the Eros consciousness. In it, the Logos ego must die -- and this is the big difference to Carl Jung's Active Imagination. I described this process in detail in the internet. If you google with <Remo Roth transformation Eros consciousness Logos> or similar, you will find it.

In your image this death of the Logos ego is the eclipse: The moon, the Eros consciousness darkens the sun, the Logos ego. Like this one becomes able to observe the Eros Self, or better the coniunctio of the Logos Self with the Eros Self

The relationship of the Eros consciousness with the Eros Self (or with the above conjunction) is completely different to the one of the Logos consciousness with the Logos Self. In it the ego is very passive, and one doesn't talk. One just observes what happens in one's own belly. This is what I call the Body-Centered Imagination as a complement to A.I.

Quote:
The 'reformed ego' that you talk about

Quote:
Becoming one with this world behind the world and behind or even beyond the physical universe is what Gerardus Dorneus called the union of the (reformed) ego with the unus mundus.


What is the 'reformed ego'? Would it have a place on the clock in my dream?


The "reformed consciousness" is the same as the Eros consciousness or Eros ego. In it one is very introverted and represses thinking consciously (during the BCI). Like this it is a state comparable with the observational state of quantum physics with the difference that the "quantum leap" is not provoced by the conscious will (in the so-called measuring act of quantum physics). In contrast, one waits, and waits, and waits in the state of the Wu Wei, the "active passiveness" and just observes. Perhaps something -- what I call the singular inner quantum leap -- happens, perhaps not. Experience shows that such inner quantum leaps happen with a greater likelihood in the moments the individual or even the world is in a big danger. I tried to describe such a BCI I did during the catastrophe of Chernobyl somewhere in the UNUS MUNDUS forum, but the I Ching forbade me to talk about the content.

And finally, to answer your question:

Quote:
What I am especially interested in is the question: Did you experience this unity? Mostly it has to do with almost incredible feelings of bliss -- the union of the mystic with God.

I didn't experience unity or bliss, rather complete stillness.


This seems to be another way how one can experience the unus mundus. Perhaps more Buddhistic that Christian.

Remo

_________________
'Here stands the mean uncomely stone,
Tis very cheap in price!
The more it is despised by fools,
The more loved by the wise.'
(C.G. Jung, MDR, p. 253)
WebSite: http://www.paulijungunusmundus.eu


Sat May 06, 2006 2:02 pm
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Post Very Interesting
Thank you for taking the time to answer my questions so thoroughly.

I find it incredibly interesting, that the center of the clock which was both Christian(Pisces) and Buddhist/Taoist(Yin-Yang) in reference to what you wrote.

Quote:
This seems to be another way how one can experience the unus mundus. Perhaps more Buddhistic that Christian.


And also:

Quote:
In contrast, one waits, and waits, and waits in the state of the Wu Wei, the "active passiveness" and just observes. Perhaps something -- what I call the singular inner quantum leap -- happens, perhaps not.


My dreams as of late have been moving back and forth between Buddhist symbolism and Christian. As if I am treading a path that leads between these two religions or that I am in some way a mixture of the two.

Also I have considered the Buddhist religion, a religion of 'Being' which sounds very similar to the Eros consciousness, and the 'waiting' which you mention in the the above quote.

Quote:
Thus it was a synchronicity. Since the vision seems to be so impersonal, it could be that it prepares us for coming events.


I am currently reading your posts on Schitzophrenia and Syncronicty and find them Amazing!

Ryan

_________________
"Let us go then, you and I,
When the evening is spread out against the sky
Like a patient etherised upon a table;"
-T.S. Eliot: The Love Song of J. Alfred Prufrock


Sat May 06, 2006 2:38 pm
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Thanks, Ryan.

I guess you are a very valuable new member of our UNUS MUNDUS forum.

Remo

_________________
'Here stands the mean uncomely stone,
Tis very cheap in price!
The more it is despised by fools,
The more loved by the wise.'
(C.G. Jung, MDR, p. 253)
WebSite: http://www.paulijungunusmundus.eu


Sat May 06, 2006 2:54 pm
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Post Re: Very Interesting
Ryan wrote:
My dreams as of late have been moving back and forth between Buddhist symbolism and Christian. As if I am treading a path that leads between these two religions or that I am in some way a mixture of the two.


Perhaps you should also read about Marie-Louise von Franz' dream about the return of Carl Jung to the Black Madonna in Einsiedeln, where the topic is the union of Buddhism and Christianity

See

http://unus-mundus.fr/viewtopic.php?t=76

Remo

_________________
'Here stands the mean uncomely stone,
Tis very cheap in price!
The more it is despised by fools,
The more loved by the wise.'
(C.G. Jung, MDR, p. 253)
WebSite: http://www.paulijungunusmundus.eu


Sat May 06, 2006 2:57 pm
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Post Re: Very Interesting
Ryan

Quote:
Also I have considered the Buddhist religion, a religion of 'Being' which sounds very similar to the Eros consciousness, and the 'waiting' which you mention in the the above quote.


Could you perhaps open a new thread and explain in it a litte further what you mean with this sentence? I guess your ideas could amplify a little more Marie-Louise von Franz' dream of Carl Jung coming back to the Wedding of the Holy Wedding in Einsiedeln, see

http://unus-mundus.fr/viewtopic.php?t=76

Remo

_________________
'Here stands the mean uncomely stone,
Tis very cheap in price!
The more it is despised by fools,
The more loved by the wise.'
(C.G. Jung, MDR, p. 253)
WebSite: http://www.paulijungunusmundus.eu


Sat May 06, 2006 3:14 pm
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Post New Thread
Yes, I would gladly start a new thread, but I will need to read the links you provided and compose my thoughts a bit.

Thank you again,

Ryan

_________________
"Let us go then, you and I,
When the evening is spread out against the sky
Like a patient etherised upon a table;"
-T.S. Eliot: The Love Song of J. Alfred Prufrock


Sat May 06, 2006 6:02 pm
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