UNUS MUNDUS

The UNUS MUNDUS forum of Psychovision (Remo F. Roth) invites discussion of theoretical and practical issues of a possible union of Carl Jung's depth psychology with quantum physical principles.
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 the face of God... 
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Post the face of God...
is dangerous....

Right now I am dreaming totally in words...

woke up with that sentence..

the face of GOD is dangerous...


I try to think about the danger..would it be too much light...?

could it be fire ?

who else is dreaming in words...? I have a recorder at my bed - if I just could write it down so quick...any other experiences ?

Thanks Angelika


Sun Apr 09, 2006 4:33 pm
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Post 
In the shower this morning, the words "This one's happening soon." popped into my head while I was trying to remember my dreams. Don't know what it means, because it doesn't really make sense in the context of my thoughts.

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Mon Apr 10, 2006 7:00 am
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Post Re: the face of God...
Angelika Reitze wrote:
the face of GOD is dangerous... I try to think about the danger..would it be too much light...? could it be fire ?


I guess the amplification which belongs to your dream is the following:

Quote:
Wikipedia:

In Greek mythology, Medusa (Greek: Μέδουσα), was a monstrous female character whose gaze could turn people to stone.
...
In the most well known version of the myth, Medusa originally started out as a beautiful woman. She was raped by Poseidon in Athena's temple. Poseidon was an arch-rival of Athena's since at one time he vied for patronage of Athens; the soon-to-become Athenians chose Athena's offering of the olive tree over Poseidon's offering of horses or a spring of water.

Upon discovery of the desecration of her temple, Athena changed Medusa's form to match that of her sister Gorgons as punishment. Medusa's hair turned into snakes and her glance would turn all living creatures to stone. She was banished beyond the Hyperborean lands.

While Medusa was pregnant by Poseidon, she was beheaded in her sleep by the hero Perseus with help from Athena, Hermes, who supplied him with winged sandals, Hades' cap of invisibility, and a sickle. From her neck came her offspring: Pegasus and Chrysaor. Perseus used Medusa's head to rescue Andromeda, kill Polydectes, and, in some versions, petrify the Titan Atlas. Then he gave it to Athena, who placed it on her shield Aegis.


Perseus was not allowed to look into the eyes of medusa, since like this he had turned to stone. Thus he took a mirror, and like this it was possible to behead her.

The important aspect is for me that Pegasus is the offspring of Medusa's neck after the beheading. Perhaps you know that between pisces and aquarius, the Christian and the next aeon, there is Pegasus (see http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pegasus_%28Sternbild%29 ). Pegasus itself is a symbol of the spirit-psyche coming out of matter-psyche, ie the new creation and incarnation of the world soul. The latter we get not by what I call the creation by cognition (philosophy, psychology, medicine, and so on), but by the creation by observation. It is the observation of the spontaneous "quantum leaps" in one's own body, the observation of the incarnations of the world soul. This observation happens in a state of a conscious "eclipse of the sun" = beheading.

Remo

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'Here stands the mean uncomely stone,
Tis very cheap in price!
The more it is despised by fools,
The more loved by the wise.'
(C.G. Jung, MDR, p. 253)
WebSite: http://www.paulijungunusmundus.eu


Mon Apr 10, 2006 7:44 am
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Post Gods Heart
Angelika ---

Maybe it is dangerous because the face of God is not the Heart of God -

>the face of God relates to Karma, causal in nature

>the heart of God relates to Grace, acausal in nature

Grace transmutes Karma.

We are entering a time of the mutation of the concept of Death into something other than we have known. What we know within our Hearts will guide us.

Best,
Kristin

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Tue Apr 11, 2006 7:13 am
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Post Re: Gods Heart
kristin wrote:
Maybe it is dangerous because the face of God is not the Heart of God -


Very good! I see now that the three upper chakras are at the head (and at the neck), and they must be cut off. Then the four lower chakras remain, the three in the belly and the one of the heart.

Quote:
>the face of God relates to Karma, causal in nature

>the heart of God relates to Grace, acausal in nature

Grace transmutes Karma.


How true. Karma is causal, the transmutation of Karma happens acausally. This could be the key for the overcoming of the deepest problems of our world. If some people are able to enter the acausal Grace of the heart chakra, perhaps the "point A" situation is reached: What happens in one human has happened everywhere ...

Quote:
We are entering a time of the mutation of the concept of Death into something other than we have known. What we know within our Hearts will guide us.


I'm just writing about all this. It is the death of the Logos ego, which helps the Eros ego to come to life. This is the conscious aspect of the Holy Wedding archetype, in which the old king must enter the womb of the goddess, where he dissolves into his atoms (unio corporalis). These atoms are the seeds or the sperms of new life, and like this the new king is born.

It seems that this means also a reincarnation of the deceased (as I have described it in the case of Helly, the cousin of Carl Jung, see http://www.psychovision.ch/hknw/holy_we ... h5p3_e.htm ), and that we have to deal with this archetypal events. If we do not consciously, these deceased ghosts come back in the form of "ETs" and abduct us into the intermediate realm.

Remo

_________________
'Here stands the mean uncomely stone,
Tis very cheap in price!
The more it is despised by fools,
The more loved by the wise.'
(C.G. Jung, MDR, p. 253)
WebSite: http://www.paulijungunusmundus.eu


Tue Apr 11, 2006 8:40 am
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Post the face of god...
I am thankful for your words and ideas..

I thought a while , dear Remo, about the Medusa story (by the way now I see where Ms. Rowling gets here material for the Harry Potter books..- she stole the mirror motiv..)

but the mirror kicked in ..in a different way....I immediately thought about the words in the bible..man is a picture/repliacte of GOD...(der Mensch ist ein Ebernbild/Abbild Gottes)...
If then a person looks into that mirror and sees himself..and NOT the undivided God, thats the danger!
it just came like this through mind...

thanks Kristin..for the heart of all things...
Angelika


Thu Apr 13, 2006 1:37 am

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Post 'easter' understanding and von Flue's 'radbild'
Angelika, Remo, All:

in the context of A's dream, what about the face of God which appeared to Nicolas von Flue - the frightening face of God, which he turned into his 'radbild'???? :idea:

the wheel mandala of von Flue, which was created from his original vision of the face of God, includes, as per Remo's discussion in his essay on the psychovision website, the ultimate melding of the Seal of Solomon mandala AND the Pelican vessel symbol of the hermetic alchemists. Thus the 'radbild' presents us with an image of the ultimate coniunctio, wherein finally the HEART is also included in the story.

this might mean that Angelika, and all, can produce her/our own personal coniunctio by simply adding the 'heart' back into the picture, just as we have been discussing in this thread - ! is she is dreaming of the emergence of the possibility of creating an ultimate relationship with the acausal, the Eros subtle principle - but in order to do this, first we must 'mutate' the face of God by our own volition?....!

all we need to do then to establish this goal is to add back the 'heart' - the connection, the bridge - our covenant with our true Selves, into the picture. this will no doubt make the 'face of God' smile :D (? no more danger then?...)

happy season of rebirth - happy easter to all -
kristin

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Fri Apr 14, 2006 9:11 pm
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Post addendum...
The story of the vision of the face of God and the 'radbild' (or wheel) of von Flue in Remo's discussion can be accessed at:

http://www.psychovision.ch/rfr/radbilde.htm#1

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Fri Apr 14, 2006 9:15 pm
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Post Re: 'easter' understanding and von Flue's 'radbild'
kristin wrote:
Angelika, Remo, All:

this might mean that Angelika, and all, can produce her/our own personal coniunctio by simply adding the 'heart' back into the picture, just as we have been discussing in this thread - ! is she is dreaming of the emergence of the possibility of creating an ultimate relationship with the acausal, the Eros subtle principle - but in order to do this, first we must 'mutate' the face of God by our own volition?....!

all we need to do then to establish this goal is to add back the 'heart' - the connection, the bridge - our covenant with our true Selves, into the picture. this will no doubt make the 'face of God' smile :D (? no more danger then?...)

kristin


the point is that there is barely any room for volition in this process. A Wu Wei attitude is certainly at the opposite. It takes time, patience, humility... And love...

Best

Roger

_________________
Fire over wood:
THE IMAGE of THE CAULDRON.
Thus the superior man consolidates his fate By making his position correct.
The fate of fire depends on wood; as long as there is wood below, the fire burns above. It is the same in human life; there is in man likewise a fate that lends power to his life. And if he succeeds in assigning the right place to life and to fate, thus bringing the two into harmony, he puts his fate on a firm footing.

I Ching #50


Sat Apr 15, 2006 10:23 am
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Post the face of god...
thanks for your words and happy Easter in a true sense to you all..
Kristin..I am just reading and digesting what Remo wrote in his site...and Roger, yes...
and (interesting) I went through a lot of really OLD dreams...because it remembered me of omething..and there it was..

a carriage, drawn by 4 chinese type of dogs...in the carriage a BEING like an wild animal..actually like the face of a WOLF...and there was light, shadow, fire, reflections..on the roadside every tree, every tiny gras bowed down..like nature was in a complete standstill..it took my breath away and then I looked again and saw the face of an old man..like moses...and in my dream I knew this is the face of god..it changed from animal-like into a human form...from thunder/fire into a Face...

an old dream, which I carry in my heart..and it containes a promise...

easterly greetings to you all...Angelika


Sat Apr 15, 2006 3:50 pm
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Post Re: the face of god...
Angelika Reitze wrote:
I am just reading and digesting what Remo wrote in his site...


Angelika and all

If you have any questions, please ask. Only by such an exchange I can formulate my ideas in a way that they are also understood by people who are more on the side of arts and humanistic science. And Kristin will surely help us with her background and knowledge. Like this we could perhaps develop some sort of an "invisible college" as Christopher proposed.

Thanks

Remo

_________________
'Here stands the mean uncomely stone,
Tis very cheap in price!
The more it is despised by fools,
The more loved by the wise.'
(C.G. Jung, MDR, p. 253)
WebSite: http://www.paulijungunusmundus.eu


Sat Apr 15, 2006 5:37 pm
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Post Re: the face of god...
Angelika Reitze wrote:
but the mirror kicked in ..in a different way....I immediately thought about the words in the bible..man is a picture/repliacte of GOD...(der Mensch ist ein Ebernbild/Abbild Gottes)...
If then a person looks into that mirror and sees himself..and NOT the undivided God, thats the danger!
it just came like this through mind...


Angelika

I do not think that your interpretation is right. The "Ebenbild Gottes", the mirror of God one finds in one's guts :wink:. This is the paradox. Perseus had to look into the mirror to behead Medusa. Thus also in your case a beheading is the necessary task.

I guess that you dream in WORDS since you are not enough rooted in the belly.

I ask myself where you had been the last month. You needn't answer this question in public, but I guess that it was not too good for your psychic development.

Bonne chance -- good luck -- Alles Gute!

Remo

_________________
'Here stands the mean uncomely stone,
Tis very cheap in price!
The more it is despised by fools,
The more loved by the wise.'
(C.G. Jung, MDR, p. 253)
WebSite: http://www.paulijungunusmundus.eu


Sun Apr 16, 2006 5:12 pm
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Post Re: 'easter' understanding and von Flue's 'radbild'
kristin wrote:
in the context of A's dream, what about the face of God which appeared to Nicolas von Flue - the frightening face of God, which he turned into his 'radbild'???? :idea:


Yes. Nicholas looked too directly into the face of God since he theoretisized about the Trinity. This was the God-image of the Church Fathers he liked to face.

However, in him not the Trinity but the Seal of Solomon was constellated. Since the Trinity contains #3, and the latter is a symbol of the energy term, also the Trinity is a symbol of energy. It is however the completely male energy, spirit-psyche, the Logos. Since Nicholas was a feeling type, but tried to believe in the Logos God, he had the vision of the frightening face of God, which was however not together with the Trinity, but with the two times three spokes. Three of them destroyed God's mouth, His ears and His eyes, i.e., most of His extraverted sensation organs. This means that Nicholas had to retire completely and meditate on the Eros God(dess).

Nicholas had therefore the challenge of finding the Goddess -- and not the Christian God of Logos. This is what I tried to describe in my essay (dedicated to Marie-Louise von Franz), and this seems also to be the task described in the above dream.

Quote:
The wheel mandala of von Flue, which was created from his original vision of the face of God, includes, as per Remo's discussion in his essay on the psychovision website, the ultimate melding of the Seal of Solomon mandala AND the Pelican vessel symbol of the hermetic alchemists. Thus the 'radbild' presents us with an image of the ultimate coniunctio, wherein finally the HEART is also included in the story.


Yes, Nicholas as a feeling type had to transform the Logos God into the Eros God(dess). This is the meaning of the Radbild (wheel image).

Quote:
This might mean that Angelika, and all, can produce her/our own personal coniunctio by simply adding the 'heart' back into the picture, just as we have been discussing in this thread - ! is she is dreaming of the emergence of the possibility of creating an ultimate relationship with the acausal, the Eros subtle principle - but in order to do this, first we must 'mutate' the face of God by our own volition?....!


Perhaps for a woman it is a matter of volition. For us men it seems it is much more a matter of fate -- especially of delusions in love affairs, since only like this we seem to be able to withdraw our incredible projections onto worldly women -- who are not the Goddesses as we think (if we have a positive mother complex), but simply humans (as also we men are).

This is also what I liked to stress for some time now. When I am talking of the Holy Wedding, then I don't mean the relationship between a man and a woman -- this is the big misunderstanding of Western neo-Tantrism -- but the sexual but divine relationship of god and the goddess in the intermediate realm. The latter one finds only introvertedly, without the presence of a sexual partner, in oneself, in one's guts. It seems however that we, at least we men, can only come to this insight, when worldly women have hurt us so much that we must withdraw our positive projections definitely.

[Of course for a man with a negative mother complex, everything is different. He projects the negative witch into women, and he has to withdraw these projections and find the negative witch in himself.]

Quote:
All we need to do then to establish this goal is to add back the 'heart' - the connection, the bridge - our covenant with our true Selves, into the picture. this will no doubt make the 'face of God' smile :D (? no more danger then?...)


Are you sure? I quote Carl Jung, since my experience is similar:

Quote:
God has a terrible double aspect: a sea of grace is met by a seething lake of fire, and the light of love glows with a fierce dark heat of which is said 'ardent non lucet' -- it burns but gives no light. That is the eternal, as dinstinct from the temporal, gospel: one can love God but must fear him." (CW 11, § 733) [Jung's emphasis]


This God-image is much closer to the Jewish than to the Christian. In the course of my life I -- educated in a deeply catholic atmosphere -- had to learn that it is much more true than the idealistic Christian with its incredibly dark split-off shadow -- which seduces these people to believe that they are in direct relation to God and that He gives them the advice to throw atomic bombs onto other nations, other religious confessions, beginning like this Word War III which will destroy mankind ...

Remo

PS: Sorry for this Easter message, but I guess that it is much more true than the Christian.

_________________
'Here stands the mean uncomely stone,
Tis very cheap in price!
The more it is despised by fools,
The more loved by the wise.'
(C.G. Jung, MDR, p. 253)
WebSite: http://www.paulijungunusmundus.eu


Last edited by Remo Roth on Mon Apr 17, 2006 10:37 am, edited 1 time in total.



Sun Apr 16, 2006 5:50 pm
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Post the face of God...
dear Remo, I "was sitting under the Mango Tree"...last month...more a business trip in Central America with a lot confusion..thats absolutely right!

And you might be right with the "beheading"
....there is a dream in my heart..telling me the same...I am watchful!
Thanks..Angelika


Mon Apr 17, 2006 1:51 am
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dear Remo, with all due respect towards an Jungian Analyst and my beloved von Franz:


how can you about my psychic development ??

let me quote Marion Woodman:

when everything fails..whatever you learned, studied or believed in -
the only thing what counts:

is your body and your dreams...

agreed ??

I have to stand up ! warmest Angelika


Mon Apr 17, 2006 4:42 am
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Post Identification with God ...
Just now an American friend sent me the following remark:

Quote:
NY Post Article on Moussaoui Trial, Fri. 14, April 2006

At other times, Moussaoui espoused beliefs that simply seemed bizarre. He insisted that President Bush would free him from prison some time before his term ends in 2009, perhaps as part of a prisoner exchange. He said it was revealed to him in a dream, just like his plan to fly a plane into the White House.


Just to show the identification with god on the other side ...

The whole trouble is however that after more than 4 1/2 years this "bushed" (Austr. and N.Z. expression for confused) is the only one Bush can let convict to death penalty. Of course Moussaoui will become like this a martyr -- and ten thousands of new terrorists will be the result.

Remo

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'Here stands the mean uncomely stone,
Tis very cheap in price!
The more it is despised by fools,
The more loved by the wise.'
(C.G. Jung, MDR, p. 253)
WebSite: http://www.paulijungunusmundus.eu


Mon Apr 17, 2006 9:22 am
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Post God's Unconsciousness
Easter is perhaps a good time to remind us what Carl Jung said about God in Answer to Job (CW 11):

God is ethically unconscious (because of his horrible gambling with the devil concerning Job), this is why he had to incarnate in Jesus Christ. Jesus Christ however died at the cross and promised to send the so-called Paraclete (the advocate, "Counsellor") [§ 691]. And Jung concludes about the Paraclete:

Quote:
[The Paraclete] is the spirit of physical and spiritual procreation who from now on shall make his abode in creaturely man. [§ 692]


And this means according to Jung:

Quote:
... that God will be begotten in creaturely man. This implies a tremendous change in man's status, for he is now raised to sonship and almost to the projection of a man-god. ... But that puts man, despite his continuing sinfulness, in the position of the mediator, the unifier of God and creature.[Jung's emphasis]


The horrible fact is that because of this sonship of God in every man constellated today, more and more even intelligent people begin to identify with God. They believe that they are God or at least know what He would like they should do.

However, as Carl Jung has shown, we should take such visions/auditions from "God" symbolically and not literally, and especially not concretisize (as all the evangelical sects do today!), and second that we should ask ouselves if the ennemies "God" talks of are not in our own soul. This would be a real Christian view, and not the projection of the collective shadow onto other religious beliefs. This would also be in the sense of Muhammad, who was much more tolerant with Christians than the Christians with Muslims (Jesus Christ is one of the prophets in the Islamic religion).

I described all this also in http://www.psychovision.ch/hknw/holy_we ... _p1j_e.htm , and especially in footnote 15:

Quote:
This part reminds us of the modern evangelical born again movement in the USA. Its members identify unconsciously with this part of the alchemical myth, since they are too much influenced by what I call the outer or extraverted spirit-psyche, the Logos principle, i.e., intellectualism and modern technology. The myth tells us further what will happen in the near future. The “king” of intellectually degenerated Logos will be swallowed by his feminine counterpart, the Eros principle. However, since most humans of today are not conscious of this alchemical background of contemporary history, this development will happen completely unconsciously and it will have the destructive consequences of a modern apocalypse – in which reason will vanish and raw unintegrated emotionalism will rule. In my opinion, the only possible countermovement is the conscious and introverted suffering of the king’s or God’s death and his resurrection in accordance with the alchemical myth.


The face of God is dangerous ...

_________________
'Here stands the mean uncomely stone,
Tis very cheap in price!
The more it is despised by fools,
The more loved by the wise.'
(C.G. Jung, MDR, p. 253)
WebSite: http://www.paulijungunusmundus.eu


Mon Apr 17, 2006 10:12 am
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Post 'bushed'...
In N. America, 'bushed' just means 'exhausted'.

So these 2 men, Sr. and Jr. Bush (Senior and Junior, interesting...), represent the many 'exhausted' and 'confused' ones, the masses, who are likewise so deeply tired and without comprehension, needing just another little stimulation or 'hit' to 'wake them up', but of course, all the coffee, drugs and so on in the world cannot wake up the dead.

The dead are the ones who have capitulated to the worst-case-scenario motif due to their lack of the 'flame of the heart', as in the movie 'The Wizard of Oz', wherein the cowardly Lion gets a 'new heart' and rebirths his own courage out of the deep conviction that 'Love' is the only true Ruler of All. When the heart runs out of steam, no amount of half-measures will ever work to bring the body back to life. And we jump-start the heart again throught body-centered work alone, such as the BCI, the conscious entering and centering in the 'belly', not through more brain or 'logos' arena machinations (and all that entails - technological advances in everything from medicine to engineering and back again - though it is certain that none of these will, in the end, prevail to save us from our self-predicted (!)downfall...)...


Kristin

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Mon Apr 17, 2006 6:21 pm
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Post A little fun
Open Google.
Type: failure
Validate the search
And just see what the first result is...



8)

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Fire over wood:
THE IMAGE of THE CAULDRON.
Thus the superior man consolidates his fate By making his position correct.
The fate of fire depends on wood; as long as there is wood below, the fire burns above. It is the same in human life; there is in man likewise a fate that lends power to his life. And if he succeeds in assigning the right place to life and to fate, thus bringing the two into harmony, he puts his fate on a firm footing.

I Ching #50


Mon Apr 17, 2006 6:28 pm
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Post further thoughts...
...Yes, our downfall has been 'self-predicted'. What does this mean? As a species we intuited that one day we would need to start all over again, with a new modus operandi, and that day has finally arrived. In fact, we 'willed' it to arrive, in one interpretation of the events close at hand.

Such a scenario is like when you know that there is work to be done, and there is no other way to do it than to roll up your sleeves and begin, but it seems like such a monumental load that you can't imagine that the first action of a beginning could ever make any difference at all - but as history has taught us, often the 'hidden history' which refers to little actions leading ultimately to macrocosmic ones, it always does. This is not the call of the optimist, so much as that of the pragmatist.

Optimism, as the term is understood today, is perhaps a bit too extraverted in theory to be a good example of the sort of attitude needed for the deep work required. Pragmatism, which has been labelled both boring and conservative, is what we need now. It is really neither of these things in truth. Real pragmatism points rather to concrete and lasting actions undertaken with a dose of humour. It demands patience and groundedness. A pragmatic or 'grounded' attitude contains the honest humour of real understanding that comes from observation of and experience on the 'earth plane'. It is perhaps partly a 'gallows humour' which prevails here, but also the 'second innocence' of the Fool archetype (see corresponding thread) which drives a real pragmatist to work on the integration of his/her own self, to make his/her existence a story of worth on the personal level.

So we can instigate this sort of deep work in our lives on a personal basis, and the work then has the real possibility of radiating out to show others also a 'solid' or 'rooted' way to go. This is the direction in which our good luck now lies - but we need to follow the method and first give up our self-absorption in 'mental accomplishments', begin working towards a whole different area of experience. What an interesting path. But it is largely uncharted territory that we now enter. The unus mundus Forum helps us to map it out, but we need the courage to take the first steps. It is supportive to know that quite a few have already begun work of this kind, or have, at least, left us a legacy of the way to begin a body-centered lifestyle. We look to the mystery paths of Dozgchen Taoism, to the Tantric subtle arts of early Hinduism, to the discipline of hermetic Gnostic for clues to finding our way through the labyrinth. The way of the mystics, the sages, the alchemists, the best of whom were at once both deeply intuitive and pragmatic, still provide proof for us that there is a way to begin again, and even if it is performed in the crucible of a single body, it counts for more than a little, it counts for all of us.

Science must rediscover it's roots again if we are to find the right way to proceed en masse. Meanwhile, we must do the work alone, without the understanding of scientists and theologians who are fixated on the way of 'the word' alone. We must forge ahead despite it all...


k

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Post Re: 'bushed'...
kristin wrote:
In N. America, 'bushed' just means 'exhausted'. So these 2 men, Sr. and Jr. Bush (Senior and Junior, interesting...), represent the many 'exhausted' and 'confused' ones, the masses, who are likewise so deeply tired and without comprehension, needing just another little stimulation or 'hit' to 'wake them up', but of course, all the coffee, drugs and so on in the world cannot wake up the dead.


Kristin, with the "bushed" I meant Moussaoui, who is the "bushed", ie the confused, and Bush needs him to show that the whole world except his is "bushed".

It is of course a playing with words, but the very interesting synchronicity was that I found the word "the bushed" for the confused by consulting my dictionary.

Remo

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'Here stands the mean uncomely stone,
Tis very cheap in price!
The more it is despised by fools,
The more loved by the wise.'
(C.G. Jung, MDR, p. 253)
WebSite: http://www.paulijungunusmundus.eu


Mon Apr 17, 2006 8:22 pm
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Post bushed again...
O.K. Remo - got it ! Your meaning is more subtle than mine, and for sure much more applicable here.

It's amazing what happens if you let yourself 'go wild' (as I did there) with the ideas behind words. However, everything contains more meaning if you look for it, right? Maybe here, however, I looked too hard -a pressure from the analytic self to 'find' more meaning perhaps?

Remember what John Lennon said in his song:

"... whatever gets you through the night, it's alright, it's alright/ whatever gets you through your life, it's alright, it's alright...."....

For some reason the lyrics have just come into my head right now.


(...pregnant silence...)


K

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Mon Apr 17, 2006 8:44 pm
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Post pregnant silence
K. you said:"(...pregnant silence...)



The work of the feminine. But that's another thread.

Best Frances.


Mon Apr 17, 2006 11:07 pm

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Post some possible confusion?
Hey Everyone;

But isn't it understood that the designations of 'God' and 'Goddess' are only two intermediate stages in the great cosmic play, whereas 'Source' or 'Tao' is the indivisible, the supreme first principle, undying, eternal? Are some of us (like me!) beginning to confuse the 'god' whose face we discuss with actual 'Source', a whole other thing to my mind, in this discussion?

I guess it really depends upon what each of us believes, but it is probably Angelika who will have to let us know which 'god' she was actually dreaming of, since our whole discussion rests on her interesting dream.

Are we speaking here of ultimate Source, for instance, when we speak of imagining the 'face of god' OR are we talking here about the face of a certain 'God', the one to whom we assign THAT particular position, be it the God of the Old Testament, or the Christian Godhead of the New Testament?

I hope you see what I mean. Along with the Goddess, the God has been appropriated by every religion in the world to behave as each one sees fit. Each one of these 'pictures' brings up a very different 'face of god' (or 'goddess', in another discussion). Meanwhile, standing outside of it all, all discussion and argument, sits the ultimate Monad, the Unity or 'First Matter'. Or does it?

:?
Kristin

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Tue Apr 18, 2006 1:39 am
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Post What god are we talking of?
kristin wrote:
But isn't it understood that the designations of 'God' and 'Goddess' are only two intermediate stages in the great cosmic play, whereas 'Source' or 'Tao' is the indivisible, the supreme first principle, undying, eternal? Are some of us (like me!) beginning to confuse the 'god' whose face we discuss with actual 'Source', a whole other thing to my mind, in this discussion?


This is a very important argument. We must first distinguish between the god of the theologians and the god of "the empirists of the soul" (C.G.), the mystics. As an empirist Jung does never talk of "God". It is a theological prejudice that they can say anything about God. This subject is mere speculation, or what we call metaphysics. Theologists talk about this subject as if they knew what or who it is, but epistemologically seen we cannot say anything about "God".

When I discussed this subject once with Marie-Louise von Franz she said in her typical way of humor:

Quote:
"You know, theologists have had a cup of tea with God, this is why they know exactly who He is..."


Thus, Carl Jung distinguishes very precisely between what theologists call God, and what he calls the God-image in the soul of man. Dreams talk about the latter, since dreams are empirical manifestations of the collective unconscious (or of the unus mundus), and not theoretical speculations. Thus, there are perhaps dreams, which talk about a God-image, which is different from the theological, the latter proposed with the help of mere scholastic speculations.

This is the standpoint of Carl Jung. This is also the reason why he answered the question: "Do you believe in God" with: "I do not believe, I know!" Carl Jung had experienced his God-image, which was the quaternity. He needn't believe in God anymore, he had experienced Him, however in a different way than the theoretical speculations of the thelogians told him.

I think that this aspect is mostly not seen, when people discuss about God and the god in dreams.

Nicholas von Flue was in exactly this situation. He believed in the God of the theologists, he even discussed a lot about Him with theologists, but then he had the vision of the terrible face of God. Since the Christian God is pure love, something must be wrong here...

This is why Marie-Louise von Franz wrote the book about Nicholas von Flue -- which is not yet published in English though it is already translated ... ! She showed that the God-image of Nicholas von Flue was not the Christian, but was completely pagan. This was his incredible big conflict. (He lived in the Middle Ages, from 1417 to 1487!) Since he felt that he is in danger to be condemned as a heretic, he was silent about his last vision. But he developed it into his today famous Radbild, the wheel image.

As I wrote in my article mentioned above, we can interpret the Radbild -- what MLvF did not in her book -- with the help of its structural characteristics. Like this we see that it is the symbol of Hermetic alchemy, ie of the Holy Wedding respectively of its background, the unus mundus. This means (in my interpretation) that his (and according to my conviction also the God-image of the 21st century) God-image contains a god and a goddess, and the incredible heretic aspect of this God-image is that these two have sexual intercourse in an intermediary world between Heaven and earth, and like this incarnate new life in our space and time bound world.

If we look at the Christian God-image from a depth psychological view, we can say that it has a lot to do with the Logos principle and with "analysis". The latter means "separation", and in the first book of Genesis we see that God created the world by separation. Every day one further separation.

The God-image already constellated in Nicholas von Flue and also today is however a God image of synthesis, coniunctio, thus of the principle of Eros. Since the instinctive root of Eros is sexuality, this God-image has also to do with it. It is the deepest, archetypal aspect of sexuality. This means that sexuality is now deified -- and this is the big revolution not too many people can follow today.

The above are the conclusions one must draw, if one tries to interpret the wheel image of Nicholas von Flue as objectively as possible, ie with the help of what Carl Jung called the amplification method.

Remo

_________________
'Here stands the mean uncomely stone,
Tis very cheap in price!
The more it is despised by fools,
The more loved by the wise.'
(C.G. Jung, MDR, p. 253)
WebSite: http://www.paulijungunusmundus.eu


Tue Apr 18, 2006 6:03 am
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Post 
If someone is interested in this subject, one can read about it in my ms. The Holy Wedding, http://www.psychovision.ch/hknw/holy_we ... 1a_e.htm#2

Quote:
It was Carl Jung who first mentioned this much more universal aspect of sexuality. In his work AION he criticized the purely concretistic interpretation of the term sexuality by Sigmund Freud. He was convinced that the Gnostics, who looked for the “procreative nature of the Whole in the procreative seed”, did not mean just the biological sexuality, because they still knew the deep truth that “man’s procreative power is only a special instance of the ‘procreative nature of the Whole’.” Thus, if one tries to look behind the Freudian concretistic view and therefore wants to understand the phenomenology of the alchemical Holy Wedding or coniunctio on a deeper, archetypal or even psychophysical level, one recognizes in the images of the Rosarium – as I will show in the following chapters – the pattern of a creation myth, wherein in contrast to most other archaic myths, man is included as a responsibly acting co-creator.


The last sentence contains a further revolution: Man is included in the act of creation and incarnation. There are not many creation myths in which this is like this. However, this creation myth, in which man must help the Godhead to incarnate HIS/HER "children", is constellated today. During the next years we will observe this completely new way of creation, but not too many people are prepared for it. Since it is absolutely necessary to understand what happens and will happen in the next years, I try do explain all this as good as I can.

Remo

_________________
'Here stands the mean uncomely stone,
Tis very cheap in price!
The more it is despised by fools,
The more loved by the wise.'
(C.G. Jung, MDR, p. 253)
WebSite: http://www.paulijungunusmundus.eu


Tue Apr 18, 2006 6:16 am
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Post 
Remo Roth wrote:
Man is included in the act of creation and incarnation.
Remo


This clearly puts the stress on the importance of individual consciousness.
Of course this also asks for an understanding of individual consciousness as the fruit of an evolutionary process conceived in an acausal way.

Put in a different way individual consciousness should be considered as the ‘accidental’ result of the ‘inner radioactive decay’, each ‘step’ the result of an ‘inner acausal quantum leap’.

I guess it is clear for everyone here that in the course of individuation the growth in consciousness an individual can live is in no way produced by a wilful concentration on a sort of necessity to individuate intellectually understood as such.

Even if, after a certain amount of time and transformations one can feel as belonging to that overpowering drive, in no way sheer will can help. On the contrary the ego point of view, often presented as childish, has to make one step backwards, and take the stance of the observer.
That’s the way I learnt to behave, that’s the way I was taught to behave with many strong hits on the head till the gate of the heart truly opened.

And then, effectively, the Wu Wei observing attitude cannot, by nature, have any controlling effect on what’s going on.

Deo conscendente, things happen. And we are transformed, not for ourselves but through the concrete realisation (incarnatio!) of the ‘tertium non datur’ that only the Wu Wei (passive) acceptation of the energy tension between the opposites, with its lot of sufferings, can bring to birth.

As I said somewhere else, I’ve never been through a classical Jungian analysis. I was simply taught to observe and accept.
In the alchemical opus, the two movements – say analytic and synthetic - are paired. It is an always moving circulation permitting something like the ‘exchange of attributes’.
In a way all happens always at the same time, and only the eventual thinking activity that takes place afterwards reintroduces the possible idea of time flow and duration.

And then from one fall head over the arse to another, a kind of new light appears glittering from the inner side of things with silvery reflects.

But further, as we learn, we eventually get the sight of a bigger picture where all this turmoil is a phenomenon in which we are the necessary Wu Wei ‘actors’ of a much much bigger part than ourselves. We behave as a kind of loving midwife who helps in the birth of a divine something which is also us.

However, what is true for the individual who has been caught in that flow is also true for mankind taken as a whole. Of course this takes much more time.

So all the shadow aspects we can now observe at the collective level also bear the possibility of a collective ‘tertium non datur’.

But I am deeply convinced that the eventual positive issue is directly linked to the number of individuals who will accept to carry the transformation into themselves and accept the sufferings to observe and give birth to what is trying now to incarnate, as constellated with the coniunctio archetype.

Roger

_________________
Fire over wood:
THE IMAGE of THE CAULDRON.
Thus the superior man consolidates his fate By making his position correct.
The fate of fire depends on wood; as long as there is wood below, the fire burns above. It is the same in human life; there is in man likewise a fate that lends power to his life. And if he succeeds in assigning the right place to life and to fate, thus bringing the two into harmony, he puts his fate on a firm footing.

I Ching #50


Last edited by Roger Faglin on Wed Apr 19, 2006 5:50 pm, edited 1 time in total.



Wed Apr 19, 2006 7:20 am
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Post Individuation
Roger you said:"
But I am deeply convinced that the eventual positive issue is directly linked to the number of individuals who will accept to carry the transformation into themselves and accept the sufferings to observe and give birth to what is trying now to incarnate, as constellated with the coniunctio archetype.


I agree completely and I must add the journey is long, arduous, lonely much of the time, isolating. It takes a complete commitment to the process no matter what happens. For me it started over 25 years ago. I was just going through my journals and counted over 100 of them!

How could we possibly see the Face of God and survive the encounter?

The human mother of Dionysus and Zeus, Semele, asked Zeus ( God in Greek mythology) to reveal himself to her. He didn't want to because he knew that she could not withstand the numinosity. He granted her wish and she was incinerated.

That is why we can only face Medusa in the reflection of the mirror. We simply cannot look directly at the numinosity of any archetype, it has been my experience. So with the help of dreams, fairy tales, myth, poetry song and dance and body work, we can circumabulate the images, and, if we're really lucky, gain an increment of consciousness once in a while.

We are not all called to do this work, but when we are we must bend to the task and it could cost us all we have.

Yasu Frances.


Wed Apr 19, 2006 4:51 pm
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