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The UNUS MUNDUS forum of Psychovision (Remo F. Roth) invites discussion of theoretical and practical issues of a possible union of Carl Jung's depth psychology with quantum physical principles.
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Joined: Wed Apr 26, 2006 6:35 am
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Post 
greetings-

I have been reading JUNG ON ALCHEMY one of the "ENCOUNTERING JUNG" SERIES, this one edited by Nathan Schwartz-Salant with a very good introductory essay.

He points out that Jung took 2 basic approaches,the hero/sacrifice type approach necessary for consciousness to get so (often too one sidedly) developed as in SYMBOLS OF TRANSFORMATION and the other being the alchemical/field approach,also likened to the shadow side of the Christian/hero approach.

This reminds me of how most of Jung's "aunties" were opposed to his alchemical studies,including Toni Wolff, even though she supported much of his far eastern research.

vonFranz must have really been persona non grata in pursuing the alchemical research/shadow approach.

The book has some nice selections. I particularly had been unaware of excerpts from the Nietzsche seminars (1930's) which are very understandable/accessible.There is a good chapter in Schwarz-Salant's book about THE BODY AND SUBTLE BODY. For example from Zarathustra seminar 2,para441-5:

"......so we can only talk in primitive language as soon as we come to the question of the subtle body, and that is every thing else but scientific. it means speaking in images. Of course, we can talk such a language, but whether it is comprehensible is an entirely different question. And you know I believe in science, I believe in that which man can do. I also remember what Mephistopheles says to the student who went away with the devil's good advice. the devil smiles behind his back and says:

Scorn reason and science if you can
The highest powers yet bestowed on man............"

AND, then, responding to a seminar participant's question:

"...now one of our participants asks: 'Are there not two uses of the expression "subtle body"? At times it seems to be used as a synonym for the diamond body. Isn't the other more primitive meaning of "subtle body" a kind of ghost-like body, like a framework, halfway between spirit and matter, which everyone possesses and in which the various centers are located ? Is the diamond body something that may develop in this subtle body?'

"Such questions will inevitably arise as soon as you begin to talk of the subtle body. Is the subtle body identical to what Chinese yoga calls the diamond body, or is it rather the kuei of the Chinese philosophy, the somatic unconscious? Well, the diamond body is the equivalent of the concept of the self. Therefore it is expressed by the stone of the highest value, and it is also called the golden germ, the golden child, Hiranyagarbha in Sanskrit. According to Chinese yoga, it comes from the lead of the water region, which is not of a precious nature. It is the heavy cold metal of a low nature which is supposed to be deep down in the body, the muladhara, or in the svadhistana, the water centre; out of this common or vulgar body the alchemistic procedure produces gold or the diamond body, the everlasting body............it is located in the centre - the psyche- between body and spirit - and consists of both......"

I think remo has really created the start of a neutral language here with help from his understanding of quantum epistemology.

A question,remo-

How woud you discriminate/compare the radioactivity effect from the concept of "nonlocality" ?


Thu Apr 13, 2006 4:22 am
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Post What is Science?
tom.guerry wrote:
He points out that Jung took 2 basic approaches,the hero/sacrifice type approach necessary for consciousness to get so (often too one sidedly) developed as in SYMBOLS OF TRANSFORMATION and the other being the alchemical/field approach,also likened to the shadow side of the Christian/hero approach.

This reminds me of how most of Jung's "aunties" were opposed to his alchemical studies, including Toni Wolff, even though she supported much of his far eastern research.

vonFranz must have really been persona non grata in pursuing the alchemical research/shadow approach.


Yes, according to Deirdre Bair it was Marie-Louise von Franz' great chance that Toni Wolff hated alchemy. Like this Jung looked for a new collaborator and exactly then she entererd his life.

Quote:
"......so we can only talk in primitive language as soon as we come to the question of the subtle body, and that is every thing else but scientific. it means speaking in images. Of course, we can talk such a language, but whether it is comprehensible is an entirely different question. And you know I believe in science, I believe in that which man can do."


I guess it depends on what one calls scientific. If it is the mainstream definition, then of course dealing with alchemy and doing what I call Body-Centered Imagination is not at all scientific.

If one however has had the insight that also science has its archetypal or even psychophysical preconditions, one must ask for a "meta-science". Wolfgang Pauli began this task, as we see for example in his statement:

Quote:
"Wenn man die vorbewusste Stufe der Begriffe analysiert, findet man immer Vorstellungen, die aus 'symbolischen' Bildern ... bestehen. Die Vorstufe des Denkens ist ein malendes Schauen dieser inneren Bilder, deren Ursprung nicht allein und nicht in erster Linie auf die Sinneswahrnehmungen ... zurückgeführt werden kann, sondern die durch einen 'Instinkt des Vorstellens' produziert und bei verschiedenen Individuen unabhängig, d.h. kollektiv reproduziert werden ... Die archaische Vorstellung ist aber auch die notwendige Voraussetzung und die Quelle der wissenschaftlichen Einstellung. Zu einer vollständigen Erkenntnis gehört auch diejeniger der Bilder, aus denen die rationalen Begriffe gewachsen sind." [WB 3, p. 498]


My English translation:

Quote:
”If one analyzes the preconscious layer of [scientific] terms, one finds always notions consisting in ‘symbolic’ images … The pre-stage of thinking is a painting view of these inner images, the origin of which we can not only and not primarly lead back to sensory perception. They are produced by an ‘instinct of imagination’ and independently, i.e., collectively in different individuals … The archaic imagination is however the necessary precondition and the source of the scientific view. To a complete [holistic] epistemology also those images belong, out of which the rational terms have grown.” [emphasis mine]


This is for me one of the deepst insights of the Nobel laurate. I do not know how many scientists know of this statement. If they would ponder about it, they would see that what they call science is only a limited, onesided view of the world. As soon as new archetypal images emerge out of the collective unconscious belonging to the mentioned "archaic imagination", which talk about a new, a changed (psychophysical) background of science, one should include them. Pauli did this as the first natural scientist and like this helped to pave the way for a future psychophysical science beyond physics and depth psychology.

If one follows Pauli, one has to accept that also science is based on archetypal images. For example, Einstein's spacetime is based on the quaternity archetype of the form (3 + 1). This is the same as the structure of some definitions of Jung's Self. [He has also another one, the quaternity, in which all four "members" are of equal rights; thus, a first contradiction.] Thus Jung's Self is also based on a causal worldview [which leads then to his second contradiction, the causal versus the acausal, synchronistic worldview.] In his book AION Jung develops a more or less causal development of the Self during the Christian eon. AION was however heavily criticized by Wolfgang Pauli. He criticized that Jung "hangs the quaternity in the Heavens, far away form humans."

Remo

_________________
'Here stands the mean uncomely stone,
Tis very cheap in price!
The more it is despised by fools,
The more loved by the wise.'
(C.G. Jung, MDR, p. 253)
WebSite: http://www.paulijungunusmundus.eu


Last edited by Remo Roth on Fri Apr 14, 2006 7:19 am, edited 1 time in total.



Thu Apr 13, 2006 6:44 am
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Post What is Science II
Quote:
Jung: "I also remember what Mephistopheles says to the student who went away with the devil's good advice. the devil smiles behind his back and says:

Scorn reason and science if you can
The highest powers yet bestowed on man............"


Here Jung anticipates what I am talking about in Chapter 4 of The Holy Wedding: “Rend the books lest your hearts be rent asunder.” Doing science in the way necessary in the near future means to deal introvertedly whith these images, which talk about a new background of science and of our worldview.

I guess that concerning science Carl Jung did not yet reach this state. As I have shown in The Return of the World Soul, http://www.psychovision.ch/synw/sealofs ... tion51.htm , he was not yet able to really understand the epistemology of quantum physics. This is why he did not see that the old quaternity, the old causal world view, will be followed by the Seal of Solomon, the symbol of Hermetic alchemy. It is the background of a new science, which integrates the "acausal singular quantum leaps" observable only with our heart in our belly -- or projected into the UFOs and "ETs" in the sky. Only after these quantum leaps not at all influencable by the conscious mind, thus a product of what I call the world soul, the anima mundi, a new quaternity, a new causal worldview is reached. But it seems that such a new scientific and depth psychological worldview is based on laws of nature no one is already conscious about. This is why it is so important that as many people as possible begin to do what the Hermetic alchemical motto tells us: “Rend the books lest your hearts be rent asunder.”

Remo

_________________
'Here stands the mean uncomely stone,
Tis very cheap in price!
The more it is despised by fools,
The more loved by the wise.'
(C.G. Jung, MDR, p. 253)
WebSite: http://www.paulijungunusmundus.eu


Thu Apr 13, 2006 7:05 am
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Post Carl Jung and the Subtle Body
Quote:
AND, then, responding to a seminar participant's question:

"...now one of our participants asks: 'Are there not two uses of the expression "subtle body"? At times it seems to be used as a synonym for the diamond body. Isn't the other more primitive meaning of "subtle body" a kind of ghost-like body, like a framework, halfway between spirit and matter, which everyone possesses and in which the various centers are located ? Is the diamond body something that may develop in this subtle body?'

"Such questions will inevitably arise as soon as you begin to talk of the subtle body. Is the subtle body identical to what Chinese yoga calls the diamond body, or is it rather the kuei of the Chinese philosophy, the somatic unconscious? Well, the diamond body is the equivalent of the concept of the self. Therefore it is expressed by the stone of the highest value, and it is also called the golden germ, the golden child, Hiranyagarbha in Sanskrit. According to Chinese yoga, it comes from the lead of the water region, which is not of a precious nature. It is the heavy cold metal of a low nature which is supposed to be deep down in the body, the muladhara, or in the svadhistana, the water centre; out of this common or vulgar body the alchemistic procedure produces gold or the diamond body, the everlasting body............it is located in the centre - the psyche- between body and spirit - and consists of both......"


For me these are all somehow philosophical questions which are not so important. The important aspect is the unbiased experience – this is the almost impossible task, if one comes from a Christian worldview -- of the emergence of such images which we cannot amplify with mythology alone. When I first experienced such images in my Body-Centered Imaginations 25 years ago, I was completely shocked, since these images were of an incredible sexual cruelty. I immediately repressed them again, and only after many years I was able to understand what they really mean. I have then seen that what happens today in so-called neo-Tantrism is a projection of all this into the partner(s). During the last weeks I have further seen that it was exactly this new worldview behind the archetype of the Holy Wedding, which was constellated in Carl Jung and Sabina Spielrein at the beginning of the last century. I began to understand what historians call today "the stallion Carl Jung" ...

However this is all "Freudian" stuff Neoplatonic Jungians do not deal with :evil:

Remo

_________________
'Here stands the mean uncomely stone,
Tis very cheap in price!
The more it is despised by fools,
The more loved by the wise.'
(C.G. Jung, MDR, p. 253)
WebSite: http://www.paulijungunusmundus.eu


Thu Apr 13, 2006 7:21 am
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Post Re: What is Science?
Remo Roth wrote:
...
My English translation:

Quote:
”If one analyzes the preconscious layer of [scientific] terms, one finds always notions consisting in ‘symbolic’ images … The pre-stage of thinking is a painting view of these inner images, the origin of which we can not only and not primarly lead back to sensory perception. They are produced by an ‘instinct of imagination’ and independently, i.e., collectively in different individuals … The archaic imagination is however the necessary precondition and the source of the scientific view. To a complete [holistic] epistemology also those images belong, out of which the rational terms have grown.” [emphasis mine]


This is for me one of the deeest insights of the Nobel laurate. I do not know how many scientists know of this statement. If they would ponder about it, they would see that what they call science is only a limited, onesided view of the world. As soon as new archetypal images emerge out of the collective unconscious belonging to the mentioned "archaic imagination", which talk about a new, a changed (psychophysical) background of science, one should include them. Pauli did this as the first natural scientist and like this helped to pave the way for a future psychophysical science beyond physics and depth psychology.


Remo


The point is that science as we know it has developped as an instrument to explain out the outer world and rape nature. It is the outgrowth of the way the exploration drive turned towards the outer world at the end of the middle ages denying progressively any existence to the 'World Soul', after such a long period of theological despotism.

An enormous projection was thus made onto matter leading to the unconscious search for the divinity into matter.

It seems that now we are beginning a third way between the over spiritualized and dogmatic view of the first fish of the christian aeon and the over materialistic view of the second fish.

Roger

_________________
Fire over wood:
THE IMAGE of THE CAULDRON.
Thus the superior man consolidates his fate By making his position correct.
The fate of fire depends on wood; as long as there is wood below, the fire burns above. It is the same in human life; there is in man likewise a fate that lends power to his life. And if he succeeds in assigning the right place to life and to fate, thus bringing the two into harmony, he puts his fate on a firm footing.

I Ching #50


Last edited by Roger Faglin on Thu Apr 13, 2006 8:54 am, edited 2 times in total.



Thu Apr 13, 2006 7:26 am
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Post Thanks, folks!
All

I'd like to express here once my thanks to all of you, folks, for giving me the possibility of a discussion of all these thoughts and experiences. For decades I was alone with all this, especially for the last one, but now it seems that my monastery opens and becomes some sort of a Karthäuser Kloster.

Image

In this way of life all the humans live in their own little houses (below in the image), but they meet for the religious service. This was always my idea of a modern life style.

Remo

_________________
'Here stands the mean uncomely stone,
Tis very cheap in price!
The more it is despised by fools,
The more loved by the wise.'
(C.G. Jung, MDR, p. 253)
WebSite: http://www.paulijungunusmundus.eu


Last edited by Remo Roth on Thu Apr 13, 2006 9:49 am, edited 1 time in total.



Thu Apr 13, 2006 8:50 am
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Post The science of a modern Hermetic alchemy
Roger Faglin wrote:
The point is that science as we know it has developped as an instrument to explain out the outer world and rape nature. It is the outgrowth of the way the exploration drive turned towards the outer world at the end of the middle ages denying progressively any existence to the 'World Soul', after such a long period of theological despotism.

An enormous projection was thus made onto matter leading to the unconscious search for the divinity into matter.

It seems that now we are beginning a third way between the over spiritualized and dogmatic view of the first fish of the christian aeon and the over materialistic view of the second fish.


Yes, Roger. First a projection into the first fish, then a projection into the second. But how could the divinity of matter come back?

I guess that with "Trinity" -- the first atomic bomb -- all these physicists and engineers of the Manhattan project brought us back exactly this divinity of matter. Of course they were not at all conscious about the fact that with radioactivity they liberated artificially the world soul's creation power. The sorcerer's apprentices did and still do not yet anticipate that they opened Pandora's box -- and provoced the UFO and "ET" phenomenology. The latters correspond to real incarnation phenomena, and our children and grandchildren will have the incredible task to deal with this catastrophe. The only way out I see for the moment is the introverted dealing with a modern way of doing Hermetic alchemy -- the Body-Centered Imagination.

Remo

_________________
'Here stands the mean uncomely stone,
Tis very cheap in price!
The more it is despised by fools,
The more loved by the wise.'
(C.G. Jung, MDR, p. 253)
WebSite: http://www.paulijungunusmundus.eu


Thu Apr 13, 2006 9:48 am
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Post Re: The science of a modern Hermetic alchemy
Remo Roth wrote:
...
I guess that with "Trinity" -- the first atomic bomb -- all these physicists and engineers of the Manhattan project brought us back exactly this divinity of matter. Of course they were not at all conscious about the fact that with radioactivity they liberated artificially the world soul's creation
Quote:
power. The sorcerer's apprentices did and still do not yet anticipate that they opened Pandora's box -- and provoced the UFO and "ET" phenomenology. The latters correspond to real incarnation phenomena, and our children and grandchildren will have the incredible task to deal with this catastrophe. The only way out I see for the moment is the introverted dealing with a modern way of doing Hermetic alchemy -- the Body-Centered Imagination.

Remo


As far as my experience goes, when you live the deepest "things" through projection, a moment happens when a reversal takes place. The projected "things" eventually suck you in (but in an acausal way) and then your are facing the inner real reality, willingly or not (vocatus atque non vocatus deus aderit).

I guess the UFO phenomenology partakes of that. It is a way to suck projections back in, and as it is the case in any projection withdrawal, a lot of sufferings accompany the gain in consciousness...

What I mean is that there is a probability that the projection draws back and that consequently a more intense introversion happens and possibly creatio continua through passive (wu wei) observation.

And even further, when you have been convinced by your own experience of the utter importance of the wu wei observing attitude you still are in front of a panel of possibilities that will or will not manifest and give you the opportunity to observe... this is what Remo means when saying, or so I understand:

Quote:
Beta radioactivity means that the matter-psyche with potentially higher negentropy belonging to the nonlocal world transforms into spirit-psyche with realized higher negentropy, which means the same as a transfer of energy from the nonlocal world to the world of the spacetime cone. This is what I call an acausal creation act of the world soul (creatio continua), in which matter-psyche is transformed into spirit-psyche with higher negentropy [in the moment of a radioactive beta decay which is the other of the twin process, the transformation of spirit-psyche, ie physical energy into matter-psyche with potentially higher negentropy].
http://psychophysical.free.fr/viewtopic.php?p=729#729

Roger

_________________
Fire over wood:
THE IMAGE of THE CAULDRON.
Thus the superior man consolidates his fate By making his position correct.
The fate of fire depends on wood; as long as there is wood below, the fire burns above. It is the same in human life; there is in man likewise a fate that lends power to his life. And if he succeeds in assigning the right place to life and to fate, thus bringing the two into harmony, he puts his fate on a firm footing.

I Ching #50


Thu Apr 13, 2006 3:38 pm
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Yes, Roger. More or less like this. I will explain it further in the Radioactivity and Nonlocality thread.

_________________
'Here stands the mean uncomely stone,
Tis very cheap in price!
The more it is despised by fools,
The more loved by the wise.'
(C.G. Jung, MDR, p. 253)
WebSite: http://www.paulijungunusmundus.eu


Thu Apr 13, 2006 9:38 pm
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