UNUS MUNDUS

The UNUS MUNDUS forum of Psychovision (Remo F. Roth) invites discussion of theoretical and practical issues of a possible union of Carl Jung's depth psychology with quantum physical principles.
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 The dream of the spiders 
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Post The dream of the spiders
Remo
Quote:
Roger, would you like to present your dream in public?

cf
http://psychophysical.free.fr/viewtopic.php?p=333#333

Here it is (I paste it from some archives), with the comments I wrote at the time:

My dream of the "other side"

Here is a dream of mine I had a short time after joining the CGJung Page Forum and discovering Remo's work. I must confess that I felt in a very isolated state, in need for a far wider "theoretical" frame than the one I had that would help me understand my experiences of years.
I joined the forum with a long quote from Edinger's ARCHETYPE OF THE APOCALYPSE, but I must admit that I was not very satisfied with it.
Then a series of dreams led me directly to Remo's site and ordered me (yes!) to get in touch with him.

Dream (July 23rd-24th 2004)
I am in a strange world I would call 'the other side'.
It's dark and luminous at the same time. Volumes, masses, proportions, distances, etc. are very relative and do not have much importance.
Everything seems to float in a kind of void.
At first, I am shown an initial event. Someone (maybe me) shoots an arrow which is in fact THE small spider towards THE big spider. When the small spider hits the other, it is naturally ejected. The impact produces a transformation of the small spider. It becomes a sort of spherical animal with a woollen fleece. I keep with it for a short while cuddling it. But it says it must go away.
A voice tells me then that time does not exist and I am shown what to do to get in touch with my world.

The voice says it goes 3 steps:
1) One must know what effect one wants to have,
2) One must decide where/when to have it,
3) One must find how to produce it.

As the voice speaks, the description of each step is accompanied with an impact producing a kind of hollow in the frame of the world and my heart seems to be solicited.

'Close' to me there appears a huge black monolith I am 'climbing up'. On top of it there is a statue of the 3rd man of a previous dream.(This man is related to Pauli's stranger, and appeared more than a few times in older dreams of mine).
I know I will reach the 'top' very soon and that from there I will be able to see the whole lot.

COMMENTS (these are my original comments, with additions between brackets []) :

I am in a strange world I would call 'the other side'. It's dark and luminous at the same time. Volumes, masses, proportions, distances, etc. are very relative and do not have much importance. Everything seems to float in a kind of void.

It is very difficult to describe what one feels in that world. Everything is different. Every common landmark has no value there, everything keeps slowly moving, changing size, proportion etc? The only thing I can say is that I feel no fear. I feel at home, as if it was just the perception of a world I have always known, the other aspect of our daily reality. Something like the yin aspect of our yang reality, as if we were living on the two sides at the same time but were not conscious enough to perceive it.

[I understand clearly now that this world has to do with the "intermediate realm" Remo talks about. It is the no time/no space or always/everywhere characteristics of the Unus mundus.]

At first, I am shown an initial event. Someone (maybe me) shoots an arrow which is in fact THE small spider towards THE big spider. When the small spider hits the other, it is naturally ejected. The impact produces a transformation of the small spider. It becomes a sort of spherical animal with a woollen fleece. I keep with it for a short while cuddling it. But then it says it must go away.

This initial event is certainly a description of the way I got there. The dream does not say that, but I feel it very strongly. In fact I am now quite sure I am the archer. It makes me think of the Zen archery tradition. Zen masters are able to hit the centre of the target blinded. One has to blind logos consciousness in order to reach the centre. Introverted sensation and intuition is what is used in Zen archery.

Now the arrow and the target are strange ones: both are spiders, described as THE small spider and THE big spider. Spiders: for me spiders are wonderful weavers. They are supposed to dwell in the centre of their webs. There is something of the small and the big self in that motif: the small self being what I would call my own personal capacity to consciously relate to the Self, and the big one being? the big One.

[The cobweb has something of smoke, that is to say material immateriality as would apply to the subtle body and UFOs properties. Further webs are very primitive animals linked with the vegetative depths.]

So a kind of inner projection takes place: a precise direction is given, and energy is applied in order to produce a contact between the self in me and whatever we call the Self, through deeply introverted sensation.

[However this happened in a blinded way. Will as we define it is not in charge.] This leads to a transformation of the small spider into an extraordinary rounded animal with a fleece, I cuddle like a child (actually it has the qualities of the marvellous child):

fleece -> golden fleece -> infans solaris.

It says it must go for it does not want me to rapture too much on the marvel of its generation.

[I don't think we can speak of a causal event. The way the marvellous being is produced is extraordinary!]

What seems important to it is what comes next.

A voice tells me that time does not exist and I am shown what to do to get in touch with my world.
The voice says it goes 3 steps.

1) one must know what effect one wants to have,
2) one must decide where/when to have it,
3) one must find how to produce it.

As the voice speaks, the description of each step is accompanied with an impact producing a kind of hollow in the frame of the world and my heart seems to be solicited.

Well, this part is somewhat cryptic. It is clearly said that time does not exist.


I cannot add any comment, and just have to accept it.

The "recipe" to get in touch is threefold. Each step creates a kind of hollow in the frame of this universe, which implies an associated "bump" in my (our) world.

The three steps are linked with the idea of "intention", that is directed energy. But there is no "physical" aspect or instrument, except maybe the heart. All this seems to point towards Remo's researches on eros consciousness and the yin<->yang aspects of energy.

[That part is not an easy one. Intention comes back. The information is given by this inner superior voice. But then a recent post by Remo made me ponder. I quote: "As the Beyond and the unus mundus seem to be one and the same "thing", we can thus conclude, that the "ET-Jung" (with his dark telepathic eyes) in my dream is now able to "project" himself onto earth. In other words: His eternal aspect has got the ability to "create" one or more earthbound C.G.'s."
Anyway, the recipe deals with the idea of entering/transforming our world from the other side.]

'Close' to me there appears to be a huge black monolith I am 'climbing up'. On top of it there is a statue of the 3rd man. I know I will reach the 'top' very soon and that from there I will be able to see the whole lot.

Here we find the conclusion of the dream: the dark huge monolith on top of which stands a statue of the third man of my previous dream, his arms extended in a sort of open embrace.

The monolith made me immediately think of the beginning of "2001, a space odyssey" by Kubrick. The dawning of humanity, 4 million years ago: large monkeys try to survive... One day, they discover a monolith of black colour. One of the monkeys has the idea to take a bone and to make use of it as a weapon. It is the beginning of the evolution of humanity...

The monolith appears in the film as the source of transformation, materialised from outer space.

[This association is very strong. If we consider it closely, it implies the active role that the mere presence of the monolith plays in human evolution.

Concerning the black monolith Remo sent me an extract from MLvF's writings, I'd like to quote:

Quote:
"This view is already clearly formulated by Zosimos and also by Arabic authors of the mystical branch of alchemy as for instance Morienus who says: "This stone is that thing which more than anything else is within you, created by God, and you are its prima materia, and it is extracted from you and wherever you will be it remains inseparable with you... and just as man is composed of the four elements so is the stone and he (the stone) comes from man and you are its prima materia, namely on account of the procedure, and it is extracted from thee, namely on account of the science. In other words the object is within you, namely in the Mercurius of the wise. You are its prima materia, it is included in you, you keep it hidden in you and it is extracted from you as it is you who reduce it to its essence and dissolve it because it cannot be completed without von and von cannot live without it and thus the beginning reminds one of the end and vice versa." This passage, which must have been known to the author, clearly expresses that the lapis is the inner man. Zosimos and the gnostic tradition around him taught that the divine Adam or cosmic Anthropos sank down into the Creation and dwells in everybody. It is therefore the task of the mortal man to redeem this cosmic inner Anthropos'.For our author the alchemical opus is therefore primarily an innerpsychic work which strives to redeem the inner man. This inner Anthropos has later been most beautifully described by Ibn Arabi (born 1165) in his famous "Al-Futuhat al-Makkiya" ("Meccan Revelations"): When Ibn Arabi circulated around the Ca'aba he found in a kind of vision "the eagle stone of the Youth, zealous in devotion, of the silent speaker who neither lives nor dies, the non-composed, the all encompassed encompasser".'This divine Youth is a kind of personification of the black stone, which is inserted in a corner of the Ca'aba. Looked at from the outside, the Ca'aba is only a dead stone. The youth however is its revealed mystery: the divine Anthropos. In answering the question of lbn Arabi, who he is, the youth says about himself: "Behold the articulation of my nature and the order of my structure and from them thou wilt find what you are asking for. For I am no speaker and no partner in conversation. My knowledge extends only to myself and my essence extends only to myself. I am the knowledge, the known and the knower. I am the wisdom, the work of wisdom and the wise".


I think I can say that the dark monolith of the dream is of the same nature as the monolith from this extract, for it is a stone with a representation of the third man of my other dream as the divine Anthropos.
The voice I can hear in the dream comes from it. My climbing efforts represent my efforts to get in touch with the third man, and they seem to be productive.
The dream exposes what one can get at by honestly introverting in the open minded spirit of the wu wei attitude. I am quite sure that what is described is the other aspect of a unified reality.
There is an attempt from that part to be recognised by our conscious world and the hollows/bumps phenomenon has much to do with "creatio perpetua", but what is strange is that this phenomenon seems to be linked with our capacity to penetrate this "strange" world.

[This sentence is inadequate. I'd rather say: this phenomenon seems to be linked with our capacity to let ourselves be bathed in this "strange" world.]

Seen from an historical point of view, we could say that Jung tried and reopened a way, and a few followed him.

[Where Jung stopped is where we have to continue.]

But there is a sort of cumulative effect which creates an acceleration of the process. The more we try and get in touch, the more it tries and incarnates [in a constructive way]. It is a kind of attraction process.

But this has to be done consciously, with the willing sacrifice of our will (logos consciousness).

Best to all

Roger

_________________
Fire over wood:
THE IMAGE of THE CAULDRON.
Thus the superior man consolidates his fate By making his position correct.
The fate of fire depends on wood; as long as there is wood below, the fire burns above. It is the same in human life; there is in man likewise a fate that lends power to his life. And if he succeeds in assigning the right place to life and to fate, thus bringing the two into harmony, he puts his fate on a firm footing.

I Ching #50


Last edited by Roger Faglin on Tue Jan 02, 2007 7:01 pm, edited 5 times in total.



Wed Mar 22, 2006 2:28 pm
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Post Remo's comments
Hi all


I send some comments to Roger's dream:


... a series of dream lead me directly to Remo's site and
ordered me (yes!) to get in touch with him.

RFR: I guess your dream has some elements in it that coincide with my research results. As you did not know them [and they were then (July 2004) not yet so clear to me as now], the dream is of course a representation of the preconscious knowledge of the coll. unconscious (or unus mundus).

Dream (July 23rd-24th 2004)

I am in a strange world I would call 'the other side'.
It's dark and luminous at the same time. Volumes, masses, proportions,
distances, etc. are very relative and do not have much importance.

RFR: It is the dimensionless world of the Beyond or of the unus mundus. I guess that Pauli's stranger always wanted to show him this world but the Nobel laureate was not able to understand. It is the world of the "fine structure constant", since the latter is indeed dimensionless, i.e., does not have any of the three dimensions of physics: mass, space and time. It is a mere number, and as much as I know, it is the only physical constant with this property.

Everything seems to float in a kind of void.

RFR: It is a void, yes. We can however only enter it when we create first the void in our consciousness, i.e., empty the Logos ego and enter the Eros ego.

At first, I am shown an initial event. Someone (maybe me) shoots an
arrow which is in fact THE small spider towards THE big spider. When
the small spider hits the other, it is naturally ejected. The impact
produces a transformation of the small spider. It becomes a sort of
spherical animal with a woollen fleece. I keep with it for a short
while cuddling it. But it says it must go away.
A voice tells me then that time does not exist and I am shown what to
do to get in touch with my world. The voice says it goes 3 steps:

1) One must know what effect one wants to have,
2) One must decide where/when to have it,
3) One must find how to produce it.

As the voice speaks, the description of each step is accompanied with
an impact producing a kind of hollow in the frame of the world and my
heart seems to be solicited.

'Close' to me there appears to be a huge black monolith I am 'climbing
up'. On top of it there is a statue of the 3rd man of a previous dream
(This man is related to Pauli's stranger, and appeared more than
a few
times in older dreams of mine). I know I will reach the 'top' very
soon and that from there I will be able to see the whole lot.

COMMENTS (these are my original comments, with additions between
brackets []) :

I am in a strange world I would call 'the other side'.
It's dark and luminous at the same time. Volumes, masses, proportions,
distances, etc. are very relative and do not have much importance.
Everything seems to float in a kind of void.

It is very difficult to describe what one feels in that world.
Everything is different. Every common landmark has no value there,
everything keeps slowly moving, changing size, proportion etc? The
only thing I can say is that I feel no fear. I feel at home, as if it
was just the perception of a world I have always known, the other
aspect of our daily reality.
Something like the yin aspect of our yang reality, as if we were
living on the two sides at the same time but were not conscious enough
to perceive it.
[I understand clearly now that this world has to do with the
"intermediate realm" Remo talks about. It is the no time/no
space or
always/everywhere characteristics of the Unus mundus.]

RFR: Yes, it is the lapis, the intermediate realm, the unus mundus, the Beyond.

At first, I am shown an initial event. Someone (maybe me) shoots an
arrow which is in fact THE small spider towards THE big spider. When
the small spider hits the other, it is naturally ejected. The impact
produces a transformation of the small spider. It becomes a sort of
spherical animal with a woollen fleece. I keep with it for a short
while cuddling it. But then it says it must go away.

This initial event is certainly a description of the way I got there.
The dream does not say that, but I feel it very strongly. In fact I am
now quite sure I am the archer.
It makes me think of the Zen archery tradition. Zen masters are able
to hit the centre of the target blinded. One has to blind logos
consciousness in order to reach the centre. Introverted sensation and
intuition is what is used in Zen archery.

RFR: Yes, the dream talks of what I call the introverted Eros consciousness you must reach. I would say you need also introverted feeling, i.e., the function that tells you if the moment is right to enter the unus mundus. If one does not value the time moment, the whole procedure can become very dangerous.

In my case for example I did not have such a need during the last years. After initial BCIs at the end of 1995 it went up until 1999 or perhaps a little more. Then however it stopped. I have seen that I had to understand (Logos consciousness!) what happened, before I can go on with my relationship with the unus mundus. [I guess I had also to wait up until other people like Roger experienced similar events. Like this I can see that I am not completely out, a far-outer.]

This morning, however, I dreamt a dream in which I am in a meeting of the Jung hairs. I know (in outer reality) a grandson of Jung very well, DB. He is more or less the black sheet there, since he is so "flipped out" (ausgeflippt in German). I show him my "passive imagination"

[The BCI; the important aspect in the dream is the passivity of the consciousness; with my "passive imagination", the "just observe and don't want to influence anything; and don't talk" I was always in a certain opposition to Marie-Louise von Franz, as she always told me that one has to intervene actively. My feeling always said no, and today I know that I was completely right]

DB. is completely fascinated of it. I stress also another difference to Active Imagination: We need what I call the "ghost hand(s)". With it (them) we touch the persons, figures, animals of our dreams and visions. And then, sometimes what I call the inner quantum leap happens, the psychophysical collapse of the wave function.

In outer reality, Marie-Louise von Franz always said that DB. has a genious intuition. Thus, since he is so enthusiastic in the dream, I know that I'm on the right road.

The dream shows me further that perhaps now a new period of "Body-Centered Imaginations", of a deeper relationship with the unus mundus, begins.


Now the arrow and the target are strange ones: both are spiders,
described as THE small spider and THE big spider.
Spiders: for me spiders are wonderful weavers. They are supposed to
dwell in the centre of their webs. There is something of the small and
the big self in that motif: the small self being what I would call my
own personal capacity to consciously relate to the Self, and the big
one being? the big One.

RFR: The Purusha/Atman idea of Hinduism. I look up my dream journals with the search function and -- how incredible!!! -- I find a quote of the Purusha/Atman myth exactly at the end of 1995, where I experienced the above mentioned BCIs. They talked of the navel of the world and of the universe. And this navel was in my belly...!

I quote there Jung, CW 11, ยง 713. In it Jung talks of the second messiah (I don't have the English translation here, thus I translate from my German original), who is born out of the apocalyptic sun woman. This is of course what I describe as the coniunctio: The World Soul is pregnant (after the "old king" has entered her womb; see CW 14, chapter 4). This is the pregnant unus mundus out of which the "new birth" happens (the infans solaris; the red tincture). And this pregnant World Soul is in our bellies...

On Feb 22, 1999 I had a BCI in which I saw the connection of the "small spider" with the "big spider": Purusha is the small spider, the "personal Self", Atman is the big spider, the "collective Self". The idea is that every human is related to her/his personal Self (in the sense of Jung), but there is also a collective Self, Atman. The important idea on Feb 22, 1999 was that when one enters the unus mundus and observes there a change, then the personal Self has changed, but -- on the basis of what I call the psychophysical nonlocality -- also the collective Self. This is the Purusha/Atman myth Jung quotes. Marie-Louise von Franz was completely fascinated of it, even much more than Jung.

What I describe here with the help of the Purusha/Atman myth, and what Roger's dream describes with the small and the big spider, is nothing else than what the Hermetic alchemists described as the extraction of the red tincture which belongs to the multiplicatio (= nonlocal change in the universe = change of the "big spider"). Pauli compares the multiplicatio with -- radioactivity!!! The multiplicatio is the result of the coniunctio, or more exactly of its result, the birth of the infans solaris or of the extraction of the red tincture. Thus, what Roger's dream talks of is exactly the observation of the coniunctio with its result, the multiplicatio, the nonlocal change of the universe.

[The cobweb has something of smoke, that is to say material
immateriality as would apply to the subtle body and UFOs properties.
Further webs are very primitive animals linked with the vegetative
depths.]


So a kind of inner projection takes place: a precise direction is
given, and energy is applied in order to produce a contact between the
self in me and whatever we call the Self, through deeply introverted
sensation.

[However this happened in a blinded way. Will as we define it is not
in charge.]
This leads to a transformation of the small spider into an
extraordinary rounded animal with a fleece, I cuddle like a child
(actually it has the qualities of the marvellous child):

fleece -> golden fleece -> infans solaris.

It says it must go for it does not want me to rapture too much on the
marvel of its generation.
[I don't think we can speak of a causal event. The way the
marvellous being is produced is extraordinary!]

RFR: Yes it happens "in a blinded way", i.e., acausally, indeterministically, not producable by the conscious will. We have just the task to observe these births when they like to happen. Nothing else. Then the small spider transforms into a sphere, i.e., wholeness, which is at the same moment the infans solaris, the product of the coniunctio.

As much as I understand the infans solaris and the red tincture, we can describe them as follows: The world functions causally. Then however, suddenly, an acausal, indeterministic singular event happens (the singular radioactive decay; the singluar quantum leap; the singular collapse of the universe's (!) wave function. As in the physical idea, the collapse is acausal, which means that we do not know which new world is created after it. We only know that something very new has been created or incarnated into our space- and timebound world. This new world functions also causally. It is the process {determinism -> spontaneous indeterministic event ("quantum leap") -> new determinism} Wolfgang Pauli was so fascinated of.

For the moment I will stop here and ask you for remarks.


Best

Remo

_________________
Fire over wood:
THE IMAGE of THE CAULDRON.
Thus the superior man consolidates his fate By making his position correct.
The fate of fire depends on wood; as long as there is wood below, the fire burns above. It is the same in human life; there is in man likewise a fate that lends power to his life. And if he succeeds in assigning the right place to life and to fate, thus bringing the two into harmony, he puts his fate on a firm footing.

I Ching #50


Last edited by Roger Faglin on Wed Mar 22, 2006 2:57 pm, edited 1 time in total.



Wed Mar 22, 2006 2:30 pm
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Post Remo's comments 2
Roger

Quote:
Dream (July 23rd-24th 2004)
I am in a strange world I would call 'the other side'.
It's dark and luminous at the same time. Volumes, masses, proportions, distances, etc. are very relative and do not have much importance.
Everything seems to float in a kind of void.


It's very interesting that the world my friend experiences in hundreds of visions is described alike. I will show him your dream and ask him if he feels "at home" in it.

I'm sure that the preconscious knowledge presents here the unus mundus. It describes some properties of it in our language of the people in the time- and spacebound world. Mostly as negations of our concepts: Volume, masses, proportions, distances "have not much importance". Later: No time.

For me the strange thing is that -- at least up until now -- I thought that we cannot say anything about the unus mundus, because of quantum physical epistemological conclusions.

Your dream however talks of a "landscape", i.e., overcomes this epistemological barrier.

This would mean that my conclusions rooting in some of Pauli's epistemological conclusions in the letters to Jung -- I will describe them (tomorrow?) in the epistemological thread (topic) in the Pauli/Jung Dialogue forum -- seem only to be true for the Logos consciousness.

However, the Eros consciousness can perhaps overcome this epistemological border and also experience the unus mundus itself. This contradicts Pauli's conclusion that only changes, i.e., incarnations out of the consciousness-transcendent unus mundus into our space- and timebound world are observable.

But what you experience in your dream is a world full of motion. Thus also there the important aspect is the motion. It seems to be an emptyness full of energy or a fullness of emptiness, i.e., the Buddhist 'God-image'. [We say that Buddhism is a 'god-less' religion; in it, god is however the emptiness with its potential fullness]

The description of this 'other side' reminds me very much of the quantum physical vacuum. Out of it so-called virtual particles are created itself (without any human action). Thus, the physicist's mind is in fact unconsciously overwhelmed by this archetypal image of the unus mundus he calls the quantum physical vacuum.

Thus, the dream describes, IMO, first the non-observed unus mundus. Then however you begin to observe. The arrow (Cupidus!) is of course the observing Eros consciousness which is also the small spider. As you say, spider and cobweb have to do with this vegetative, subtle world one can only experience in the state of the (introverted) Eros consciousness.

Perhaps here is also the motif that the Eros consciousness becomes identical with the (personal) Eros Self (arrow = small spider). Perhaps in contrast to the Logos ego, which is forbidden to do this (danger of inflation). For the Eros consciousness it is however forbiden to live this identification extravertedly. If so, it becomes extravertedly identical with the Eros Self, and this means symbiosis ! Would explain all this symbiotic relationships we can observe.

Remo

_________________
Fire over wood:
THE IMAGE of THE CAULDRON.
Thus the superior man consolidates his fate By making his position correct.
The fate of fire depends on wood; as long as there is wood below, the fire burns above. It is the same in human life; there is in man likewise a fate that lends power to his life. And if he succeeds in assigning the right place to life and to fate, thus bringing the two into harmony, he puts his fate on a firm footing.

I Ching #50


Last edited by Roger Faglin on Thu Apr 20, 2006 8:44 am, edited 1 time in total.



Wed Mar 22, 2006 2:31 pm
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Post Remo's comments 3
Remo Roth wrote:
Perhaps here is also the motif that the Eros consciousness becomes identical with the (personal) Eros Self (arrow = small spider). Perhaps in contrast to the Logos ego, which is forbidden to do this (danger of inflation). For the Eros consciousness it is however forbiden to live this identification extravertedly. If so, it becomes extravertedly identical with the Eros Self, and this means symbiosis ! Would explain all this symbiotic relationships we can observe.


Yes, of course. Eros is relationship, is union, reunion, is "being a wave". Thus one of the important attributes of it is the union with the Eros Self, even an identification with it.

This would explain some of my dreams and (corporeal) visions, in which I played the role of "god" who unified with the goddess. Sorry! But I begin to understand that what alchemy calls the union of a god and a goddess can also be experienced as the union of the Eros ego with the goddess. (In the case of a woman of course of the feminine Eros ego with the masculine god).

Further: As the realm of the Eros Self is without space, time and mass, i.e., without our physical measures of the "here", it seems now obvious to me that the Eros ego melts with the Eros Self.

I must say this solves a very old enigma: Why does the "unconscious" like to convince me that I am "god", the king of the coniunctio? Since the "Ego king" and the "Eros Self queen" are one and the same in the moment of the coniunctio.

But what horrible consequences it can have, if we project this fact, i.e., the union of the Eros ego with the Eros Self, onto a woman!

Remo

_________________
Fire over wood:
THE IMAGE of THE CAULDRON.
Thus the superior man consolidates his fate By making his position correct.
The fate of fire depends on wood; as long as there is wood below, the fire burns above. It is the same in human life; there is in man likewise a fate that lends power to his life. And if he succeeds in assigning the right place to life and to fate, thus bringing the two into harmony, he puts his fate on a firm footing.

I Ching #50


Wed Mar 22, 2006 2:33 pm
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Roger, what an amazing dream. Thanks for posting it all, and the commentary too. I have to rest and let it sink in a little.

Wow - you are right Remo - what horrible consequences if this union of the Eros ego with the Eros Self WAS projected onto a woman - oh!


Kristin

_________________
"The tomb is not a blind alley; it is a thoroughfare. It closes on the twilight. It opens on the dawn." ******* (Victor Hugo)


Thu Mar 23, 2006 2:53 am
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Post 
kristin wrote:
Wow - you are right Remo - what horrible consequences if this union of the Eros ego with the Eros Self WAS projected onto a woman - oh!


As a woman, can you tell me what could happen?

Remo

_________________
'Here stands the mean uncomely stone,
Tis very cheap in price!
The more it is despised by fools,
The more loved by the wise.'
(C.G. Jung, MDR, p. 253)
WebSite: http://www.paulijungunusmundus.eu


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Post some continuation from my archives
I have found in my archives a continuation of the exchange about the dream of the spiders I'd like to quote.

In a reply to Remo, I said:

Remo,



Quote:
Remo:
It's very interesting that the world my friend experiences in hundreds of visions is described alike. I will show him your dream and ask him if he feels "at home" in it.

I'm sure that the preconscious knowledge presents here the unus mundus. It describes some properties of it in our language of the people in the time- and spacebound world. Mostly as negations of our concepts: Volume, masses, proportions, distances "have not much importance". Later: No time.


For me the strange thing is that -- at least up until now -- I thought that we cannot say anything about the unus mundus, because of quantum physical epistemological conclusions.

Your dream however talks of a "landscape", i.e., overcomes this epistemological barrier.

This would mean that my conclusions rooting in some of Pauli's epistemological conclusions in the letters to Jung -- I will describe them (tomorrow?) in the epistemological thread (topic) in the Pauli/Jung Dialogue forum -- seem only to be true for the Logos consciousness.

However, the Eros consciousness can perhaps overcome this epistemological border and also experience the unus mundus itself. This contradicts Pauli's conclusion that only changes, i.e., incarnations out of the consciousness-transcendent unus mundus into our space- and timebound world are observable.



Hum, I guess that Pauli's conclusion applies when the usual Logos-consciousness is dominant. That's what happens with UFOs, crop circles etc?


Quote:
Remo:
But what you experience in your dream is a world full of motion. Thus also there the important aspect is the motion. It seems to be an emptyness full of energy or a fullness of emptiness, i.e., the Buddhist 'God-image'. [We say that Buddhism is a 'god-less' religion; in it, god is however the emptiness with its potential fullness]

The description of this 'other side' reminds me very much of the quantum physical vacuum. Out of it so-called virtual particles are created itself (without any human action). Thus, the physicist's mind is in fact unconsciously overwhelmed by this archetypal image of the unus mundus he calls the quantum physical vacuum.

Thus, the dream describes, IMO, first the non-observed unus mundus. Then however you begin to observe. The arrow (Cupidus!) is of course the observing Eros consciousness which is also the small spider. As you say, spider and cobweb have to do with this vegetative, subtle world one can only experience in the state of the (introverted) Eros consciousness.


On the contrary, when Eros-consciousness becomes dominant, it is as if the 'observer' becomes part of the 'observed' and then such a description happens.


I don't know if you have read the Castaneda series of books. At the time I did. I had of course the utmost difficulties to understand what he was talking about. However I deeply felt there was something there. To my mind what he describes is distorted by the use of mushrooms and the Eros state he reached was perverted by the Logos-power attitude at the origin of his using mushrooms.
However the distorted vision still describes something that is there, even if we can consider it as a sort of dressing (as much as the ET's look for example is a dressing) needed for the Logos-consciousness to be touched.

In a true Eros state one becomes a part of the 'other side' which enables that kind of self imagery to be produced out of this world. Thus it is true that there is a sort of melting of the Eros ego and Self.

Roger

_________________
Fire over wood:
THE IMAGE of THE CAULDRON.
Thus the superior man consolidates his fate By making his position correct.
The fate of fire depends on wood; as long as there is wood below, the fire burns above. It is the same in human life; there is in man likewise a fate that lends power to his life. And if he succeeds in assigning the right place to life and to fate, thus bringing the two into harmony, he puts his fate on a firm footing.

I Ching #50


Wed Mar 29, 2006 4:41 pm
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Post Re: Remo's comments 3
Remo Roth wrote:
I begin to understand that what alchemy calls the union of a god and a goddess can also be experienced as the union of the Eros ego with the goddess. (In the case of a woman of course of the feminine Eros ego with the masculine god).


It is the way Christian feminine mystics unified sexually with Jesus Christ. But then their confessors "purified" these visions, since they did not correspond to their prejuduce of God, who has nothing to do with sexuality.

What a horrible rape of all these deeply mystical women!

Remo

_________________
'Here stands the mean uncomely stone,
Tis very cheap in price!
The more it is despised by fools,
The more loved by the wise.'
(C.G. Jung, MDR, p. 253)
WebSite: http://www.paulijungunusmundus.eu


Thu Apr 20, 2006 9:08 am
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