death mother and arthritis
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Author:  Tom [ Tue Aug 15, 2006 1:14 am ]
Post subject:  death mother and arthritis

I have enjoyed reading up at the kaleidoscope forum.

Remo commented there:

http://kaleidoscope-forum.org/talk/view ... c&start=15

1) The first aspect of the Hermetic process (see above) is the death of the king and his entrance into the womb of the queen. A Neoplatonic worldview, completely horrified of such a death of the Logos, interprets this event of course as the devouring death mother. He/she tries to avoid such an assumed catastrophe by even more Neoplatonic liberating of the good psyche/spirit out of evil matter. However, as Carl Jung experienced in 1913 first, this will end in a catastrophe -- the complete breakdown.

There is also mention of the death mother in this thread:


Here is an interview with some of Woodman's thoughts on the dark goddess and masculine and feminine energies:


Anyone familiar with healing of arthritic symptoms or relation of arthritic symptoms to death mother/body vs headaches to animus/head thoughts (tachycardia/heart chakra,etc)

Author:  Remo Roth [ Tue Aug 15, 2006 7:24 am ]
Post subject: 

Hi Tom

Nice to hear from you.

In the above Kaleidoscope thread Frances wrote:

The idea is to focus on the body and get out of the head. Especially as women we need to focus on the feminine primarily.

This focus is new for me, I sense. I think coming down with rheumatoid arthritis is the wake up call, the next step to be taken in the individuation process. It's one thing to read about it in Woodman's books, it's quite another to experience it!

The trouble of the Jungian approach is that one tries to talk about the disease. This shows in the post which was the reason for Frances' answer:

Yes, getting out of the head one of the challenges for me. My therapist frequently asks me to verbalise my somatic feelings. I intellectualise a lot!
My scds means that I somatically feel my anxieties, and anger as my heart becomes irregular. My body really has picked up its 'cudgel' to communicate with me!! [emphasis mine]

This is exactly what I call the Neoplatonic approach. The mind of the analyst gives a "logical" explanation. The trouble is that this does not help at all. This approach is surely important and right for a medical doctor, especially for a surgeon. He must know the anamnesis and the concrete corporeal situation before his intervention, look at the radiogram, MRI, etc. With this (verbal) knowledge of his mind and the concrete images of the body and its damage in his mind, he can begin. The internists believe that they can go on in the same way, but there I am not so sure.

Here the Hermetic approach comes in, and what I propose with the Body-Centered Imagination. The patients themselves try to transform their symptoms into an image, a symbol. This is only possible in the state I call the Eros ego. In it one realizes the image coming out of the belly, which is the complement to the symptom. The funny thing is that this "image quest" seems to heal without any verbal understanding of the symbol. It is as if the world of the images gives us the healing, and like this thanks us for being liberated.

Since the Neoplatonic approach is the background of psychoanalysis [Out of evil instincts (matter) the good spirit must be liberated], in these circles there is a great resistance against such a view (and method). I am however convinced that only like this we can really heal somatic disease on the background of an "imaginal" method.


Author:  Remo Roth [ Tue Aug 15, 2006 7:41 am ]
Post subject:  Re: death mother and arthritis

Tom wrote:
Anyone familiar with healing of arthritic symptoms or relation of arthritic symptoms to death mother/body vs headaches to animus/head thoughts (tachycardia/heart chakra,etc)


More than two decades ago I suffered myself a tachycardia -- as also did Carl Jung. This is in fact one of the reasons why I discovered Body-Centered Imagination. The heart in my belly began to transform into incredible states. These states can be very horrifying and terrifying. For example there was one "scene," in which my heart in the belly was cut in two with a big sword.

I was really terrified, but then decided to go on. Like this the "heart image" was able to develop itself and in quantum leaps like acausal "jumps" into further images. I just observed, and like this first the horror went away and second my taychcardia was healed.

Like this I learned that we have to sustain the horror and the inner terror. Only like this the "flow" of images can go on in consecutive quantum leaps, and like this create a counter-world of images, which heal.

The same seems to be true on the psychic level with panic attacks, anxiety neurosis, etc.


PS: Perhaps a method of confronting the inner terrorist, instead of projecting it into Islamic people in general.

Author:  Remo Roth [ Tue Aug 15, 2006 7:57 am ]
Post subject: 

Today I'm working in this way as a healer. Yes, I confess that the psychoanalyst transformed into a quack doctor. Since so many people have incredible trouble to abandon the brain and enter the belly, I assist their process with my hands on their belly. Like this they can come down very quickly. And then the journey begins, which no one of us knows where it leads to. [The king (Logos ego) has entered the womb of the queen (Eros principle) and died!] This is why this work is so creative. During this procedure, and especially at the end, we mostly have incredible feelings of grace and bliss.

Remo, the charlatan :D :D :D

Author:  Remo Roth [ Tue Aug 15, 2006 8:02 am ]
Post subject:  Transformation of Death Mother into Anima Mundi

This is what I call the transformation of the death mother into the anima mundi, the healing principle of the microcosm as well as of the macrocosm. However, one should be able to let loose, to give up what I call the Logos ego and transform into the altered state of the Eros ego.


Author:  kristin [ Tue Aug 15, 2006 8:09 pm ]
Post subject:  the Midwife


Thanks for this most honest of descriptions regarding the BCI method. You help us all without doubt with such personal revelations. Ultimate healing can only continue in this way - if we are honest with ourselves. The Court Jester, the Fool, is a healer through 'circularity', through his/her non-linear understanding of things as they are, not as they 'seem' to be (which occurs when we are caught up in constant attempts at manifestation due to goal-oriented thinking, resulting in assumptions about 'the world' which are not true, which are simply an outcome of false pride). We can certainly discern the integrity of the process you describe through your words, Remo, and come to understand that 'the charlatan' is only the disguise of the hidden, but everlasting, 'Green Man'!

To assist another person to 'come in to' their own belly - the role of the midwife it seems. The midwife (whether literal or metaphoric), is one who assists with 'the passage into the light' in every birthing process. Is not the Death Mother seemingly transformed into the World Soul every time this process is reenacted? Thus they are 'one', in fact, the Midwife and the Anima Mundi, and She is the one who assists in the 'death/life' process, which starts always from the center - the 'mid[dle]' place - the 'belly' of the being! Here on the earth plane, paralleling the acausal work of the World Soul, the Green Man is the vegetative 'midwife' - male counterpart/consort to the female midwife, sometimes also called "the Lady of the Woods", she is 'Gaia', Demeter - the Goddess in her many guises...

From your message, I guess our task is to enter our own centers, in exact parallel to the the World Souls' metamorphic movements. As She assists in the vast acausal incarnations from out of the unus mundus from some unknown cosmic 'central' point (represented by the number "7", the meeting place of the 2 triangles of the Seal of Solomon), we here must just observe our own synonomous internal 'creations', which are connected in some mysterious way with the workings of the World Soul.

Upon thinking on all this, I feel content. There is no hurry to this process, and all is revealed in its own time/space -- is it not? We enter our own 'retort', our 'athanor', we wait and watch, without presumption...


Author:  Remo Roth [ Thu Aug 17, 2006 2:04 am ]
Post subject:  Re: the Midwife

kristin wrote:
To assist another person to 'come in to' their own belly - the role of the midwife it seems. The midwife (whether literal or metaphoric), is one who assists with 'the passage into the light' in every birthing process. Is not the Death Mother seemingly transformed into the World Soul every time this process is reenacted? Thus they are 'one', in fact, the Midwife and the Anima Mundi, and She is the one who assists in the 'death/life' process, which starts always from the center - the 'mid[dle]' place - the 'belly' of the being! Here on the earth plane, paralleling the acausal work of the World Soul, the Green Man is the vegetative 'midwife' - male counterpart/consort to the female midwife, sometimes also called "the Lady of the Woods", she is 'Gaia', Demeter - the Goddess in her many guises...


Yes, you are right. I never saw all this so clearly. It is in fact the midwife who acts. In Jung's terms we could speak of the midwife's archetype.

A spontaneous association came to my mind: As I guess, in these states the microcosm and the macrocosm begin to melt. Thus this sort of healing could also have a macrocosmic aspect, the midwife of the cosmos. Could it be that this work has to do with some sort of reincarnation?

We have some hints in Wolfgang Pauli's experiences and thoughts about this. If I have the energy, I will look it up tomorrow and begin a new thread. People who know my newest writings have surely realized that this topic arises more and more in connection with the Hermetic aspect of the world and Carl Jung's related childhood dream of the phallus in the grave (see http://www.psychovision.ch/hknw/holy_we ... h5p9_e.htm and following, and search with "reincarnation" if you are interested in this topic).

See also http://unus-mundus.fr/viewtopic ... ight=#2580


Author:  Michael [ Thu Aug 17, 2006 2:17 am ]
Post subject: 

I suddenly had a pain in the right side of my chest. Immediately, I had the association of Remo's (and Jung's) tachycardia even though I did not feel the pain my heart region.

For some reason I decided to come online and went straight here--the same minute Remo posted the above topic.

I followed the link to read more about the reincarnation and this passage popped out at me:

We know today that especially the UFO abduction phenomenology is stamped by the motif of the procreation and the birth of hybrid beings, a crossbred between humans and aliens. Could these visions of the abductees experienced intensely corporeally, be a hint for the circumstance that the today constellated myth of the deus absconditus could lead to a real reincarnation of such hybrid beings into our world? Could thus such crossbreeds be the product of the “procreative nature of the Whole,” of the deeper, psychophysical aspect of human sexuality?

Upon reading this, the image of the Nephilim came to me. This term is in the bible and they are described as 'giants'. Maybe someone with more biblical scholarship under their belt would like to elucidate us. I will do some research to see where else these beings are mentioned.

People often attribute them to be the cross between some alien species and humans, but the more common definition is that they are 'fallen angels'.

EDIT: Upon searching the term Nephilim on BibleGateway.com, I came up with these passages:

Genesis 6:4 (New International Version)

The Nephilim were on the earth in those days—and also afterward—when the sons of God went to the daughters of men and had children by them. They were the heroes of old, men of renown.

Numbers 13:33 (New International Version)

We saw the Nephilim there (the descendants of Anak come from the Nephilim). We seemed like grasshoppers in our own eyes, and we looked the same to them.

And I leave you with an image.


I wonder where this will lead.

Radiating energy,

Author:  Remo Roth [ Thu Aug 17, 2006 2:34 am ]
Post subject: 


I was just correcting http://unus-mundus.fr/viewtopic ... ight=#2580 and then went back to the Index to see your post ...

Remo, the nightworker

PS: It seems that your body leads you very well!

Author:  kristin [ Thu Aug 17, 2006 2:54 am ]
Post subject:  the cosmic midwife!

Hey Remo:

Very much looking forward to seeing your new thread re. 'midwifery', Jungs' phallus/grave dream and so on. It feels like a new time of possibilities can arise for us now!

Happy 'nightworkings' - :)

Author:  Michael [ Thu Aug 17, 2006 4:20 am ]
Post subject:  Further Information

Reading up on Nephilim on Wikipedia, I found the following to be of interest:

The origination of the Nephilim begins with a story of the fallen angels. Shemhazai, an angel of high rank, led a rebel sect of angels in a descent to earth to instruct humans in righteousness. The tutelage went on for a few centuries, but soon the angels pined for the human females. After lusting, the fallen angels instructed the women in magic and conjuring, mated with them, and produced hybrid offspring: the Nephilim.

The Nephilim were gigantic in stature. Their strength was prodigious and their appetites immense. Upon devouring all of humankind's resources, they began to consume humans themselves. The Nephilim attacked and oppressed humans and were the cause of massive destruction on the earth.

Others, especially some Christians, suggest the "sons of God" were fully human. It is sometimes suggested that ridding the Earth of these nephilim was one of God's purposes for flooding the Earth in Noah's time.

Others who find the idea of angels mating with humans as distasteful have suggested more figurative interpretations of the nephilim, such as the idea that they were the offspring of men possessed by demons. In light of the alien abduction scenario, some have speculated a form of artificial insemination being implemented.

There have been many interesting attempts to reconcile mythology with science; many have theorized that mythology can and does contain grains of truth in the form of a highly distorted "folk memory".

In this context, the Nephilim have been associated with inhabitants of Atlantis that allegedly descended from extraterrestrials. The most prevalent theory among those that accept the correlation between science and the Bible is that the Nephilim were actually surviving Neanderthals, or a Homo sapiens-Neanderthal hybrid.

(Emphasis my own)

Nothing would be visible without light,

Author:  Tom [ Fri Aug 18, 2006 1:00 am ]
Post subject: 


This is very similar to Edinger's context and amplification of some of his patient's dreams discussed in his commentary on Jung's AION (about p.170 I recollect) and other places.

The fallen angels were attracted to the "daughter's of men" and came to earth and copulated with them and taught man many things. The product of the union were giants. This is from an apocryphal text.

This was then the prelude to Noah's flood washing all this away.

The modern dream Edinger analyzes then has giants and aliens and radiation,etc.

Author:  Remo Roth [ Fri Aug 18, 2006 2:43 am ]
Post subject: 

A sidenote:

I always wondered why women had to wear a hat in (catholic) church. In Italy they had even to wear veils (what old women do still today). I read then, I guess in Symbols of Transformation that this is exactly the case because of the fallen angels. Without seeing the face of worldly women, they were less dangerous.


I guess your psychosomatic symptom means in fact that you should write, since the angels/giants could mean this. Marie-Louise von Franz writes somewhere that Carl Jung had a dream of a giant who pulled a huge ship and because of this dream motif began to write his Psychological Types.

It is the way which you describe above, how I try to transform psychosomatic symptoms into creative ideas. Further, I sometimes got very aggressive (giants/fallen angels?), had then to bring this aggressivity down into my belly where it transformed into an image. This image was the beginning of creative writing.

All the best for your first born.


Author:  Michael [ Fri Aug 18, 2006 4:54 am ]
Post subject: 

I've been feeling very aggresive lately. And I've been exerting that energy the wrong way. It's strange.

I'll indulge you all in a small personal matter that I'm not proud of but somehow triggered me to see a connection.

Long story short, I was single and lonely and invited this girl I knew to my place. I don't know what my goal was, but yadda yadda yadda... She ended up sleeping in my bed that night (didn't do the deed), but I felt like utter crap afterwards especially since I left her thinking we were starting a relationship and I knew she really liked me. I didn't see her again after that. The next week was hurricane Katrina. The girl's name is Katrina.

And now this cease fire in the middle east has me making the same sort of connection. I had been expressing my anger outwardly instead of dealing with the inner terrorist. And it has been 4 days, the same amount of time the cease fire has been going on, since I last lost control of my aggresivness. I felt an extreme drain of energy since, and I am just now getting back to normal in time for the new semester which starts on Monday.

I know creating releases energy, but in this case I am not sure how to go about it. I have never written anything more than 10 pages, except for a screenplay I started a few years ago. I'm not even sure at this point if I have the time or energy to keep school, work, and a creative project in balance. Actually, on second thought, I know I do. It will just be an interesting test for me.



Author:  Tom [ Fri Aug 18, 2006 4:40 pm ]
Post subject: 

The apocryphal text was Enoch.

There may also be some discussion of this in Edinger's ARCHETYPE OF THE APOCALYPSE.

The text would seem to suggest that after the giants appear/knowledge,etc, then comes the flood/water/lower chakras as we have discussed.

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