UNUS MUNDUS

The UNUS MUNDUS forum of Psychovision (Remo F. Roth) invites discussion of theoretical and practical issues of a possible union of Carl Jung's depth psychology with quantum physical principles.
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 Christian Alchemy 
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Joined: Mon Jan 18, 2010 9:48 pm
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Location: Missouri
Post Christian Alchemy
Hello All:

I joined this forum about 3 months ago but have not posted until today.

I am in a recovery program and have been for almost 20 years. About 7 years ago I had a mentor encourage me to work more closely on clarifying my ideas of my "higher power". Through the course of the past 7 years I created an art-symbol structure down in my basement. The process that unfolded was very unusual, and at the end, it lead to Remo Roth and Wolfgang Pauli and Carl Jung.

I had a website created recently in which I made a PowerPoint presentation available. The PowerPoint presentation is broken down into 5 "days". One can easily view as much or as little as one chooses. The presentation follows the development of the ideas and symbolism in a clear and, I hope, logical manner. The website address is: christian-alchemy.com

(I am not very computer savvy and wasn't able to make a hyperlink.)

I would be very interested to get feedback on this art-symbol structure. Even if you don't agree with every "jump" I make, I think you will find it very thought-provoking.

Thank you.

Eric B.


Thu Apr 15, 2010 12:45 am
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Post Your Journey
Hi Eric,

Welcome to the forum.

Amazing. What an unusual exploration. Thanks for sharing. What a tremendous amount of work and devotion. Admirable to say the least. Very different approach to the psyche compared to someone like myself whose scientific bent colors the process.

On finishing Day 5 I had suddenly noticed how your corner creation reminded me of the task of restoring the lost shard to the Dark Crystal. See the movie The Dark Crystal for details. It is an animated film and something a family might enjoy. It echoes the Axiom of Maria Prophetissa.

Quote:
When single shines the triple sun,
What was sundered and undone
Shall be whole, the two made one,
By Gelfling hand, or else by none.


Also (playing on the edges here), had you noticed that an apple resembles a spindle torus? If you look at an apple cut in half... you may soon find yourself delving deeper into Sacred Geometry.

Image

Best of continued Good Luck with your process.

Gregory


Thu Apr 15, 2010 4:04 am
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Welcome to the forum, Eric.

What a fascinating process you present. I noticed in Day 5 of your presentation some similarities to my own material, particularly the Melanie Purcell part. If you haven't read it yet, you may want to take a look at the first thread I posted here back in early 2007 (wow! Has it been three years already?):

http://unus-mundus.fr/viewtopic.php?t=599

Your post today also has several synchronous relations to things I am experiencing at this point in time. I won't go into detail of that now, though. Thanks for posting!

Best,
Jess


Thu Apr 15, 2010 4:44 am
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Thu Apr 15, 2010 8:04 pm

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Post Christian Alchemy
Dear Gregory, Jess and Jan:

Thank you all for your very thoughtful responses. This feels very exciting. I would like to give you each a more detailed reply but I have had a long day and will write more this week-end.

Very quickly though, I did just spend the week-end with my brothers and father and his wife and spent some time talking with one brother who is a follower of Meher Baba (the brother in the PowerPoint who I referred to as the follower of an Indian mystic) and he is a graduate of the University of Wisconsin - Madison. He lives just north of Madison and has for many years. Interesting. (The university symbol is a very striking image as well).

Thank you all again. Will write more later.

Sincerely.

Eric B.


Fri Apr 16, 2010 4:25 am
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Post More 'Christian' Alchemy
All,

Regarding the problem of "evil"... which I see Eric touches on in his 5 Day journey - we have, as Jan has mentioned recently in another thread, the reminder of the "evil" in Nature going on in Iceland and how this can impact our world.

Image
ASH THURSDAYICELAND
Quote:
It is perhaps no accident that the most frequently quoted passages from the Old Testament are those in which the mysterious figure of Sapientia Dei – Wisdom - plays a central role. This Gnostic figure is the chief protagonist, and she is identified with Mary and with the "soul in matter." The anima functions as the mediator in any experience of the unconscious; she is the first content to cross the threshold, and she transmits to consciousness those images from the unconscious which compensate the orthodox Christian ideas that dominate our conscious view of the world. In view of the recent solemn declaration of the dogma of the Assumption of the Virgin, one cannot but regard the glorification of a divine female figure in Aurora as a prophetic presentiment of coming events. But behind this figure we catch glimpses of the abyss of the nigredo, of the psychological shadow and chthonic man, whose integration has begun to present ethics with some troublesome questions. At all events the problem of darkness, as the text and commentary will show, is touched upon in the Aurora though it is not solved. MLvF, Aurora Consurgens, p. 4


Gregory


Fri Apr 16, 2010 3:39 pm
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Sat Apr 17, 2010 1:34 am
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Sat Apr 17, 2010 8:25 pm
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Post The Infinite Scream Passing Through Nature
Sat. 17 April 2010 @ 7 PM

In The Human Experiment - I commented that it seemed the Earth was going to puke.

Quote:
Here is a confirmation of what Mark Twain’s (1835-1910) insight leads to 100+ years later. The Earth is going to puke – maybe as hard as the dinosaurs experienced.

The Story of Stuff.


Today I see the following images in The Scream which immediately reminded me of the “evil” of Nature comment made in More ‘Christian’ Alchemy.

Image
The crater of Eyjafjallajokull in SouthEast Iceland
Quote:
A satellite radar image (which penetrates through clouds, ash, etc.) of the volcanic crater in Iceland appears to show a nightmarish face, which is reminiscent of Edvard Munch's painting 'The Scream.' Coincidentally, it is thought that the masterpiece was inspired by the blood red skies caused by the powerful volcanic eruption of Krakatoa in 1883.

In his diary Mr Munch wrote: 'I was walking along a path with two friends - the sun was setting - suddenly the sky turned blood red - I paused, feeling exhausted, and leaned on the fence - there was blood and tongues of fire above the blue-black fjord and the city - my friends walked on, and I stood there trembling with anxiety - and I sensed an infinite scream passing through nature.'


Gregory

PS I noticed this “face” in the clouds when making this post but forgot to include it. Something I used to do a lot of when growing up – sitting outside and seeing images in the clouds. I have increased the hue to intensify the colors. Looks like the plume emanates from the left side of the neck in this primitive creature.

Image
The Primitive Amongst Us


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Sun Apr 18, 2010 3:40 am
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Post Christian Alchemy
Hello All:

Where to start?

Gregory: I will check out the film the Dark Crystal. Also I was not familiar with the term "spindle torus". Is this a possible link to why the fruit that is
referred to in the Bible is interpreted as an apple and not some other fruit? I don't think the original text actually says "apple". I wasn't as able
to follow your Iceland-Ash Thursday response as well, as it is a bit outside of the realm of my understanding at this point.

Jan: I liked very much your link to the aurora borealis and your description of what synesthesia is like for you. And as mentioned earlier, I thought it very
interesting the symbol of the U of Wisconsin -Madison and the connection to my brother. I liked your observations that the ace of hearts as
mystical child of the King and Queen of Hearts and white and black as both being "non-colors" . As mentioned above the Iceland volcano discussion is
a bit outside my "realm". And yes there have been many detours and dead-ends and I still am not quite sure how or why I kept going. I somehow
just did.

Jess: Yes I remember reading your post. I will revisit it in more detail tomorrow.

For those who would be willing, would you comment on the overall 2 strongest elements (moments of wow!, if any) of the PowerPoint and the
2 weakest elements ("I don't get it" or "too much of a stretch or "just can't relate").

Thanks again everyone. What a fascinating situation we are in.

Sincerely.

Eric B.


Sun Apr 18, 2010 3:44 am
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Sun Apr 18, 2010 12:54 pm
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Post My WOW Moment
Quote:
Eric writes,

…would you comment on … moments of wow!, if any.

Gregory: I wasn't as able to follow your Iceland-Ash Thursday response, as it is a bit outside of the realm of my understanding at this point.


A WOW moment for me was when I read your reaction to your addiction troubles by expressing it in relation to a crucifixion, i.e., to a S – T – R – E – T - C – H – I – N – G experience that “forced” you to grow or die. A dark moment of reckoning I would image. This immediately reminded me of Dr. Jung’s comment,

Quote:
Suffering is the fastest horse to wholeness (providing one does not succumb to it).


The Iceland business (white means undifferentiated new consciousness has hit the table) was an attempt to convey, via an amplification from Aurora, that not only does the “soul in your matter” suffer because of the necessary split in our human nature that took place at the inauguration of the Christian eon so that Logos functioning (upper three chakras, the ability to reason and be reasonable; aka the masculine principle in alchemy) could be integrated, but also the “soul in matter” in general suffers because of this split from the chthonic side of matter (the lower three chakras; aka feminine principle in alchemy). Matter is not without soul in other words, it is not dead as Remo writes. This is why Remo also notes that the tampering with matter at the nuclear level is especially offensive to the World Soul, i.e., to the Holy Spirit, for the Holy Ghost occupies all things. Retribution (a demand for inclusion) from that quarter, “dead” matter, seems imminent and like this a welding together (wedding) of the natures that were split is brought to the forefront. Thus for me and others here the eruption in Iceland is a synchronistic event that seems to suggest grumbling from that chthonic quarter.

I know all these comments are beyond you at this point but given your high regard for the S – T – R – E – T – C – H – I – N – G experience I thought I would add a little more "fire” to your already kindled fire in the interest of making you aware of the broader problem all humans are facing in our time. Thus, perhaps a reading of Aurora might be helpful to your ongoing journey. The coloring of the word is meant to indicate the lower three chakras – the vegetative wisdom as Remo likes to refer to it – something I would imagine your brother who is into Eastern religious experience can help you with. Humanity now needs to go back and pick up this split-off part and include it with our upper three chakra development via an acausal process (Eros Ego consciousness; not Logos Ego consciousness) that can let this aspect tell its story. In other words, at this time in our history, The Way Down Is The Way Up! – as your sculpture indicates via the apple at the bottom. That going back to the Garden of Paradise and eating once again of the Tree of Knowledge of Good & Evil. But this time “Evil” – the inclusion of the “voice” from the depths via images, etc. are the sources of information. Like this one becomes whole.


Image


Gregory


Sun Apr 18, 2010 2:22 pm
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Post The Scream
Jan, Gregory,

My new cycling jersey is Edvard Munch's "Scream".

Yesterday I went cycling with my girlfriend's parents.

They told me they had just read an article in the NY Times about how the inspiration for the sky in the painting came from the beautiful sunsets that would result from the smoke from the eruption of a volcano.

I later looked up what the plume's path might be to see if we would get any interesting skies here in the states, even though Tucson always has beautiful sunsets.

The image I came across was the exact one Gregory posted of the volcano's crater.

Just an interesting coincidence.

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Sun Apr 18, 2010 4:24 pm
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Hi Eric,

Welcome to the forum!

I just finished Day 5, as I read through one "Day" each day.

I'm very impressed and think it's a great work of art.

I do have one question that troubles me, and that troubles me about Christianity in general:

How is it that Christ's crucifixion "saves us all" or as you put it, allows for the differentiation of consciousness?

Thanks for sharing your journey,

Michael

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Sun Apr 18, 2010 4:36 pm
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Sun Apr 18, 2010 7:29 pm

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Post Christian Alchemy
Dear All:

I wrote a long reply and it did not post.

Will try tomorrow or Tuesday.

Thanks.

Eric B.


Mon Apr 19, 2010 5:03 am
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Post Re: Christian Alchemy & The Rosicrucians
cross of light wrote:
Dear All:

I wrote a long reply and it did not post.

Will try tomorrow or Tuesday.

Thanks.

Eric B.

Hello Eric, I have been reading your posts and the replies. It was difficult to look at your detailed images in the power point presentation because my computer is older and clogged with files almost up to its maximum capacity. Finally I was able to see the presentation using Abobe reader.

Jan, Gregory, Michael, Jess and many other forum members will recognize what I am about to say means. Right from the first page of what is called the Ann-Suzanne Blog here at the forum... there have been many postings of various forms of mystic crosses and/or pyramids and/or obelisks with lots of discussion about their meanings... including that some aspects are trinities and others quaternities... and so on. Lots of times this goes round and round and comes back to something to do with the historical Rosicrucians.

Eric, yesterday morning, Sunday, I realized that there may be some connection with your arrival at the forum this week and a deceased friend/love of mine who first appeared to be communicating with me LIVE on the Ann-Suzanne Blog on its page 2 when it first started up in February 2008.

I will have to post this in sections for awhile... due to frequent sudden shutdowns until I can better prune unneeded files off my computer and defrag the hard disk into much better work-ability...

Image will be placed here soon... It is 2:19 AM my time in Virginia.

Image

The man I call Lee here on the forum would be over 100 years old if he was still alive in our everyday world. Fifty years ago, I knew him for 5 years when I was in my mid to late teens. He once said to me during the late 1950s-early 1960s time period that he "used to be a Rosicrucian" but that presently he was going with his family to a Methodist church. I last saw him in person then in late March of 1963. I did see him again briefly in 1970 at a funeral of someone we both knew without realizing that until the actual supposed "chance" meeting in those circumstances. We had one phone conversation 6 months later where for the first time he spoke openly about the possibility of reincarnation and that somehow he and I had been born far apart in age (35 years difference) instead of in the same generation. That was our last outer contact during which he had said that most likely we would not see each other again in this life but would be reunited after death as soul mates. That is the short version of the story and quite sufficient a summary for now.

The reason I bring "Lee" up as an immediate topic in my first reply to you, Eric, is that...

More here shortly that I have to extract from an E-mail I received yesterday morning... this is it...

Subject: Working Together
Date: 4/18/2010 4:59:39 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time
From: leeeric@deleted.com-for privacy

I wrote to Ann, my blog partner, after doing some Googling about this meaningfully "significant spam". None of us on the forum have figured out how this happens... that ridiculous junk mail somehow becomes a message from the Beyond in a very evidential manner. I wound up swiftly at a video about something similar in type to what could be called an invention that my deceased older man friend/love worked on during his lifetime. Here is how I actually described the process to Ann in the E-mail I sent to her at Date: 4/18/2010 5:11:11 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time (with only a few alterations at the end that I give here so as not to actually reveal Lee's real identity which the deceased version of him says he does not want made public):

EMAIL TO ANN WILL GO HERE -- and here that is:
Quote:
The route to get to this video began with a junk spam E-mail supposedly from a soldier in Iraq who has some hot loot he supposedly wants to share with us suckers who will send him our money first. However, since the sender's name said leeeric and was entitled Working Together (The deceased Lee is always saying to me that we are a team.)... I got the hint that this was probably a synchronistic item. Lee has said before that he somehow "correlates" with The Phantom of the Opera (perhaps as a past or alternative multidimensional identity) but not in his own recent life or his present afterlife identity. The negative aspects of the story-opera have been turned esoterically into something uplifting and spiritual somehow... At first I searched only for Lee Eric... but suddenly got the nudge or hint or silent word in my mind (from Lee) to add phantom to the search with Lee and Eric. That is when I came across the first video (I showed to Ann)... and then a second related one a few minutes later (that I had never seen before) which wound up giving Lee's actual real name in full. (Ann knows who he was.) I noticed that the same man who made the other video (directly related to Lee) during his travels here in the States, also made a video some months ago of part of... The Phantom of the Opera in live performance on stage. (I very intentionally left out a step here so that readers of the forum are not able to follow the same path exactly and find out Lee's actual name.)

At first I made no connection between the name Lee and the name Eric as having anything to do with the forum. Then this evening I was talking with my daughter about my reading again about the famous Frederick Myers life after death "Correspondences" experiment where the deceased Myers, and a few of his psychic researcher colleagues who had also passed on, were dictating jigsaw puzzle type fragments of classical literature to lady mediums in separate locations who did not have the educational background to fake such elaborate evidence or understand any of its meaning until living experts in the classics studied and fit the messages together to make sense. We had a discussion about Myers most recently on the Ann-Suzanne Blog when Wayfarer, a then brand new forum member, mentioned him in this way.

Then mention of Frederick Myers from Feb. 2010 post:

Wayfarer Posted: Fri Feb 19, 2010 7:02 pm
Re: Garden of No Return - no more matrix of illusion
Quote:
Suzanne wrote: Jan, I replied to our new forum member Wayfarer earlier this morning with more synchronicities from other parts of that same pharmacy spam. How is any of this possible? Do they have wireless ethereal-material laptop wireless computers over there in the Beyond to use to send us this nonsense that somehow makes sense? That would actually be a bit more logical than that these elaborate coincidences happen by random chance.

Wayfarer continues: Well, it's interesting thin(g) that no more than two weeks ago I've read of works of Frederic Myers - a British scientists of late 19-th century, who studied the Afterlife? Being a scientist, he was one of the founders of "Society for Psychical Research", which revealed many frauds and explained many tricks of false 'mediums' of that time. But in the end Myers gathered enough evidence of afterlife to convince himself and some other people. (By the way, he was one of the first men who ever theorized about 'subliminal consciousness', thus getting ahead of Freud in this matter.)

REST of Wayfarer's post with large photo image of Frederick Myers:
http://unus-mundus.fr/viewtopic.php?p=9725#9725

One more item will go here next... a Rosicrucian image to go along with Eric's own "cross of light" forum name.

cross of light wrote:
Dear All:

I wrote a long reply and it did not post.

Will try tomorrow or Tuesday.

Thanks.

Eric B.

Image

The Winged Self

Image: A Rosicrucian Simbol from The New Age Bible & Philosophy Center

The Simbolism of the Rose Cross by Max Heindel

SOURCE: http://www.rose-cross.netfirms.com/

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Mon Apr 19, 2010 7:19 am
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Tue Apr 20, 2010 10:41 pm

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Post Christian Alchemy
Hello again:

I thought I was intense. You guys/gals are intense.

To tell you the truth, some of your all's posts have been a bit overwhelming to me. Part of it is that the lexicon and knowledge base is something I am relatively new to, and therefore only have a rudimentary understanding of. I often have to reread some things more than once. Some difficulties revolve around the ideas themselves. (The Eric/Erik the ghost thing, strangely, really did not bother me. For what it is worth, The Phantom of the Opera is a great, great play, movie, soundtrack. I listen to it with some regularity). Anyway. The idea of synchronicities as being "real" is also a relatively new concept for me. This makes some of the ideas that are presented in this forum hard for me to know "what to do with". From my work on the Cross of Light, I have come to the conclusion that there is clearly more going on than "meets the eye", and many of you have maybe "known" that for quite some time. I think I panicked a bit the other night after I posted my last post that didn't post. I think I felt out of my league. I feel calmer now.

I really like how everyone who has posted thus far seems very genuine and authentic and just tells it like it is. Much that has been posted has been very, very interesting. I have felt very welcomed. Thank you.

To Michael who asked about Christ's crucifixion that "saves us all". I don't know that that was what I was trying to say, even in different words. If there is a particular slide on a particular day that you are referring to, I can respond to that. I have to be careful to not address topics that I am not knowledgeable enough to answer. I am nowhere near an expert on Christianity. My general perspective is that there is a middle ground between orthodox Christian dogma and secular/rational/science.

Jan and Gregory. Please don't let what I said in the first paragraph deter you from saying what you need to say. I just may not always be able to respond in a meaningful way.

I have never posted on a forum before so all of this is new. I feel like I need to post everyday or something close. I am happily married and have 2 kids, a dog, a job etc. and time is really tight sometimes. I can probably only post 2 or 3 times per week. Even then it might have to be kind of short. Also, being in recovery from addiction makes me susceptible to doing too much of something. I could have spent all of last week-end on the computer. As it is, I was only on the computer for 47 hours. :-) This fact also limits some of my ability to read some of the suggested readings. I'll just have to get to those as best I can.

To close. The best I can say is that inadvertently I somehow got on a "fast horse" (I loved that quote) and it has lead me here. I also came up with this saying the other day: "If synchronicity is true, then we must live inside a poem."

Thanks again everyone.

Sincerely.

Eric B.


Wed Apr 21, 2010 3:21 am
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Wed Apr 21, 2010 10:45 am
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Eric,

I refer you to Day 4, slide 30.

Quote:
“…The Father (Mystery) sacrifices his Son (Consciousness) through crucifixion/ dismemberment, so that we (the many seeds of Consciousness) can experience life…
…Our existence as individuals is bought at the price of the Christ's crucifixion. Our deaths as separate individuals through the realization of Gnosis are his resurrection…
30


I guess I just don't understand how consciousness can be sacrificed. Do you mean pure, undifferentiated consciousness?
If so, why do you think it is necessary that there be "many seeds" to experience life? Or is this just a part of the Mystery?

I never liked in church when they asked only those who accepted Christ as their savior to receive communion. Personally, I think it's bullshit the amount of people who actually get up and do that, probably without even knowing what it means for them to accept Christ as their savior.

I'm with you as far as reunification/resurrection goes. I can identify myself with Christ or any other human being, or life form, or matter (working on it), but I've always had trouble understanding the supposed Sacrifice...

I do not view Jesus, the man, as anything more than an enlightened individual, like the Buddha.

You seem to be approaching the problem of the Sacrifice from a symbolic standpoint, which I like, but I still do not understand. In what way does the Mystery sacrifice Consciousness? Does it split its unity in order to create a higher order of united consciousness? If that's the case, I can see what you mean by calling Hermetic alchemy is "Western". However, I highly doubt any authority in Christianity would agree with this. I would say Hermetic alchemy its more akin to Eastern philosophy via reincarnation.

The Ourobouros, to me represents the mere fact that consciousness/life must devour itself to keep thriving. It's always being reborn (new creation) and thus evolving. I do not see the need for the serpent to not devour its tail and end up coiled which to me signifies only potential energy with no real movement "upward", only spiraling on top of itself in one plane.

Michael

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Wed Apr 21, 2010 9:03 pm
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Post Christian Alchemy
Hello:

Michael and Jan. Thank you for responses. I will not be able to respond in more detail until tomorrow (Friday) morning.

Thanks.

Eric B,


Thu Apr 22, 2010 1:25 pm
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Post Christian Alchemy
Hey Everyone:

I am out of town on a college visit with one of my children. I thought I was going to have a lot of spare time today so that I could post some responses,.There is a schedule that I pretty much have to follow. Probably won't be able to post until tomorrow morning. I look forward to continuing the conversations.

Sincerely.

Eric B.


Fri Apr 23, 2010 2:01 pm
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Post Christian Alchemy
Hello:

Jan: You wrote, "...you kind of touched on a 'soft spot' of mine with this thread on 'Christian Alchemy". "...because the harm done by Christians who are oblivious to their 'dark side' really infuriates me)."

I think that really does get to the heart of the difficulty with this subject matter. In the presentation on Day 2 slide 3, I comment on the idea that "on one side of the bank..." and "on the other bank..." (I need to learn how to copy and post excerpts). The idea being that I find myself "in the middle".

In my opinion. One side "of the river", through their personal experiences with Christianity has reactions that occur on a continuum. The continuum is from indifference on one end to rage and fury on the other end. I think there are many people who for their own sanity, may have kind of closed the door on Christianity. If you have Jan, or anyone else, that is O.K. with me. Really. Just before posting this morning I got a solicitation from Amazon.com about a book called "Man Made God" by Barbara Walker. I have not read the book but the description says it is a very critical of Christian history up to and including religion as big business, its harmful effects on women and essentially that it is a profoundly harmful myth. I probably would not disagree with many of her points. And probably likewise many of yours. It is a question of throwing out the baby with the bathwater. I agree, there is a lot of bathwater, my contention is that there is also a baby in there. I understand that Jung took the Bible very seriously. Jung's relation to Christianity is an area I know little about but I have come to be very interested in. My impression is that he was deeply connected to the spirit and not the letter of the Law.

On a personal level however, through my struggles with addiction I came to see that many of the issues that I projected onto Christians were issues that I had myself. That was and is not a partcularly enjoyable insight. The fact that they may also be projecting onto me, is essentially irrelevant (not that it doesn't make it harder), to what it was I needed to do.

This is a brief excerpt from an essay I once wrote that conveys that idea:
"Once I had been talking with a family member who is a very good-hearted and thoughtful tradition-based Christian. He said that his wife had been suffering from near daily headaches for some time. Initially I was somewhat shocked and had the actual thought, “How can that be? Born-again Christians are saved. They can’t get headaches.” That thought was quickly followed by another thought. "Well, that serves them right for making the wife have a subordinate role in the marital relationship.” I like and respect these family members very much, but Mr. Compassionate Liberal (me), had been a hypocrite. It’s the “Bible thumpers” who are supposed to do all of the judging. But I was doing the judging, and obtaining a measure of satisfaction at their pain, to boot. Propaganda works both ways. I wanted them to feel pain so that I could be “right”. I needed to be compassionate, and I was not. And it was not their fault that I was not compassionate. Now I can not stop competitive thoughts and feelings from emerging, but I can look at them directly and clearly and decide if I want to nurture or let them go. It is as if each “side” is waiting for the “other” to love them first.

On the other side of the "river" are those with orthodox views who will not, or can not for their own reasons, even begin to entertain the ideas that I put forth in the PowerPoint presentation.

That is why near the beginning of the PowerPoint I decided to address the presentation to those who despite all of the "articficial" yet no less, real barriers we erect (Christian vs. Non-Christian being only one) have a sense of a "new tribe" emerging that realizes we are all, at some level, connected and one.

To Michael: Sorry it has taken me so long to respond to your observations. Maybe the above post gives some clarification. Basically, a person named Jesus being crucified "for our sins" as an orthodox Christian interpretation does not make much sense to me either. I am getting a bit tired. It takes me forever to write one of these posts, so I will have to think more about "the many seeds of consciousness idea as it relates to "crucifixion". Thank you as well for making your point about the Ourobouros and whether it devours its tail or not. I like and need to be challenged. It will help me clarify my thoughts and ideas. The number of times I started at one place and ended at another has occured many, many times through this process. I need to do a little research back into the basis for how and why I came to that observation so that I can give you a cogent response.

Thanks everyone.

Eric B.


Sat Apr 24, 2010 3:56 pm
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Post Christian Alchemy
Addendum:

From Eric:

Jan: As I read my post after I had posted it, it struck me that I might have been a bit "cold" or overly analytic towards your situation. That I may have inadvertently "pinned" you to one side of the river. That is not my intent. People's responses to my responses bring up responses in me. Also it takes me so long to type my thoughts out, I forget where it was I started. I can see how if one (me) is not careful it would be very easy to offend someone. I really connected with your sharing in the sense of the deep emotions that get brought up with this "inner" work. It can feel brutal. But fundamentally it is my intent to remember and convey that we are all in this together.

Thanks.

Eric B.


Sat Apr 24, 2010 4:59 pm
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Sat Apr 24, 2010 10:40 pm

Joined: Mon Jan 18, 2010 9:48 pm
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Location: Missouri
Post Christian Alchemy
Dear Jan:

Thank you for your response. I hope you will notice that I typed an indirect apology to you as an addendum (5:59) about an hour after my original post of (4:56). A more direct apology. I am sorry to have mischaracterized your position as being that you had "closed the door" on Christianity. That was not my intent. I too, have gained alot from various religious traditions. I expect to continue to draw on them as spiritual resources as well. After reading my post I knew I had made a mistake.

I think I get angry sometimes that Christianity gets defined for me, and I and others have a right to help define what Christianity "means". And, over time, it has all just become a big mess. I can take the concepts seriously, but hold the terminology lightly. I think it would be nice if one definition of the term "Christian" meant (paraphrasing John Shelby Spong) someone who had learned/was learning how to take in the pain of the world, transform it and give it back to the world as love.

I have tried to think of terms for what a new type (original?) of Christianity could be called. Esoteric Christianity sounds too well...esoteric. I once thought of an analogy that non-Euclidean geometry is to Euclidean geometry as non-Euclidean Christianity would be to Euclidean Christianity. It sounded pretty cool but I don't know that it is accurate or that it is not too esoteric sounding as well. Organic Christianity sounded good for awhile as that is what this process has been for me. Kind of growing from the ground up. But organic Christianity could sound like one is talking about potato chips or soybeans. Gnostic Christianity seems to relate too specifically to specific Gnostic myths (demiurges etc.). There is even a question about whether a Gnostic Christianity existed as such. Any way. That was a bit of a ramble.

To close. Jan. I hope to be more careful in the future as I learn the "ropes" of electronic communication. As open as I am to the views of others I certainly have a lot of opinions and need to be careful.

Sincerely.

Eric B.


Sun Apr 25, 2010 12:31 am
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Post Christian Alchemy
Addendum #2:

Jan: After my most recent post (1:31 am), I realized I must have been feeling defensive and overlooked commenting on your experience of the 3 masculine beggars transforming into a female trinity of some type. Did you experience that in a dream? Or in some other manner. If you have described this in another thread, which one was it. Please remember that communicating about these types of experiences is very new territory for me.

Sincerely.

Eric B.


Sun Apr 25, 2010 1:06 am
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Sun Apr 25, 2010 1:17 pm

Joined: Mon Jan 18, 2010 9:48 pm
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Location: Missouri
Post Christian Alchemy
Hello:

Jan: Thanks for your responses. I will go ahead and respond to some comments Michael had made.

Michael: My sense of the Ourobourous biting its tail or not can be captured by this quotation from, "The Gifts of the Jews" by Thomas Cahill page 239.
"This movement is the movement of time, which, once past, becomes history. But the movement is not like the movement of a wheel, as all of other societies had imagined; it is not cyclical, coming around again and again. Each moment, like each destiny, is unique and unrepeatable. It is a processs- it is going somewhere, though no one can say where. And because its end is not yet, it is full of hope- and I am free to imagine that it will not be just process but progress."

So my sense of things is that if the snake bites its tail it implies a cyclical process - coming around again and again. Whereas if it doesn't bite its tail and curls around in a curving upward spiral (like a coiled snake or a metal spring) then the implication is "progress" not just "process". I don't really know which of those it is. Or if those are the only 2 choices. I like the author's perspective that he is free to imagine that it is one way and not another. Although I tend to think that solutions to "problems" tend not to be "either/ or". I hadn't really thought of the Ourosborous curling past itself and staying in one "plane" as you suggested. That is what I really like about getting this feedback. As a final crazy kind of thought, I was walking the dog with my wife today and we were talking about this forum and all of the ideas. I just recently bought my daughter a Klein bottle for her 18th birthday (she wasn't expecting that!) and I thought: what if the Ourousbourous snake that encircles the Cross of Light was somehow shaped like a Klein bottle. I don't know quite what that would look like but it might be a compromise idea between the Ourosbourous that bites its tail and one that doesn't. It would circle back on itself but still allow for progress or expansion in some way. I don't know. Maybe not. Just a thought.

Thanks.

Eric B.


Sun Apr 25, 2010 7:09 pm
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Sun Apr 25, 2010 7:53 pm

Joined: Mon Jan 18, 2010 9:48 pm
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Post Christian Alchemy
All:

Had some family issues develop that needed to be addressed. May be a day or so before I will be able to post.

Thanks.

Eric


Mon Apr 26, 2010 12:55 pm
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