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The UNUS MUNDUS forum of Psychovision (Remo F. Roth) invites discussion of theoretical and practical issues of a possible union of Carl Jung's depth psychology with quantum physical principles.
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 Synchronicity and Schizophrenia 
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Post Synchronicity and Schizophrenia
This is a copy of my contributions of 2004 in the thread Synchronicity and Schizophrenia in the late cgjungpage/forum:

Hi all

My experiences have shown me that it is perhaps interesting to discuss in this thread the difference between synchronicity and schizophrenia.

Let us begin with a quote of a statement Carl Jung expressed 3 1/2 years before his death. For me this statement is insofar important as it was formulated 14 years after his heart attack. As I have shown in a earlier post, these last 17 years of his life and his creative work are neglected by two former leading members of the Zurich C.G. Jung Institute, Dr. Helmut Barz (President) and Dr. Ursula Baumgardt (Director of the Picture’s Archive and leading examiner in picture’s interpretation), when they excluded them from the so-called “Studienausgabe” (study edition?) of Jung's work.

Carl G. Jung, Letters, vol. 2, p. 409-10, letter of Jan 14, 1958:

Quote:
“Your question concerning synchronicity and ideas of reference is very interesting indeed. I have often found that synchronistic experiences were interpreted by schizophrenics as delusions. … The schizophrenic’s interpretation is morbidly narrow because it is mostly restricted to the intentions of other people and to his own ego-importance. The normal interpretation, so far as this is possible at all, is based on the philosophic premise of the sympathy of all things, or something of that kind. …

Ideas of reference arise as a concomitant symptom of the patient’s wrong understanding, and consequent repression, of his psychic situation. Then what should normally have been an expression of the sympathy of all things turns into a pseudo-rationalistic attempt to explain the missing sympathy, so in place of the uniting Eros he feels a divisive fear or a hatred [emphasis mine] which is its opposite.The pathological factor is that the original participation in all things is perverted into a negation on rational or other plausible grounds [emphasis mine] which seem obvious enough to the average intelligence. Not only is no account taken of the significance of this sympathy, but the religious attitude is also lacking which sees in it a divine will that has to be served accordingly.”


So, the deepest problem seems to be a lack of a religious attitude in its original meaning: Eros, connectedness, sympathy is replaced by its contrary: perverted Logos (i.e., pure rational intellect and will-possession) and the related power, hatered and antipathy.

Remo

_________________
'Here stands the mean uncomely stone,
Tis very cheap in price!
The more it is despised by fools,
The more loved by the wise.'
(C.G. Jung, MDR, p. 253)
WebSite: http://www.paulijungunusmundus.eu


Last edited by Remo Roth on Fri May 05, 2006 8:23 pm, edited 1 time in total.



Fri May 05, 2006 6:03 pm
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Pandora, Roy,

Quote:
...I'm wondering why so much importance should be placed on anything Jung said about schizophrenics


It is important because the problem of schizophrenia is deeply connected to what we call synchroncity. If one experiences sychronicity with a paranoid attitude (that belongs mostly to schizophrenia), one always interprets the synchronicity as a confirmation of one's own wrong intentions.

An example of a schizophrenic man: Neighbours phoned the analyst when this man had a heavy outburst of rage (at the beginning of his schizophrenic phase). The analyst went to his flat and when he entered it, the electrical light exploded. Immediately, the schizophrenic man triumphed: “You see, this is a sign from God that I am Jesus Christ.”

He was not able to realize that the explosion of the electrical light was a symbol of his exploding “morbidly narrow” Logos consciousness, which identified with the archetype of the Logos, Jesus Christ, and like this drowned into the collective unconscious.

What is the synchronicity, here? The outer event was the explosion of the electrical light. The inner was the explosion of his consciousness. The schizophrenic, however, thought that he is the “big light”, Jesus Christ, the Logos. As Jung tells us:

Quote:
I have often found that synchronistic experiences were interpreted by schizophrenics as delusions. … The schizophrenic’s interpretation is morbidly narrow because it is mostly restricted to the intentions of other people and to his own ego-importance.


Today, this happens not only in small institutions, but also in the high politics. Schizophrenic people cannot interpret the “signs” in a right way anymore. They become identified with God, i.e., with the power of the superman.

And this is the incredibly dangerous state of the world of today.

The more people identify with –isms, be it Christan fundamentalism, Jungianism, or other –isms, the greater the danger.

If one looks closer, one sees that behind all this is an identification with the perverted Logos, i.e., will-possession, intellectual rationalism, causalism. Behind all that is an incredibly unconscious and therefore deeply repressed power complex (or even the power archetype, e.g., in the discussions of using atomic bombs as first strike weapons...!). Because of the repression, the power complex is veiled by a wrong Ethicism and moralism. But it is the unconscious power complex, i.e., the unconscious will- and power-possession, that leads these people. Therefore, one finds them mostly in powerful positions (they perhaps did not reach with the help of democratic means…).

If you ask me, I’d guess that this is the today’s situation of the Western "culture", be it in high politics, be it in science, be it in psychotherapy. Power, power, power, nothing than power! More and more the original neurotic split is replaced by the schizophrenic split, which is of course much worse. The media, especially the two-dimensional TV "reality", allows however to hide this deep split in the leaders. (Everyone knows how they are talking when the camara and the microphones are off...! But not too many humans are willing to see the split in these people.) When one has seen them face by face (and heard the TV "off topics"), one realizes with a great horror the reality of this split.

In the next post I will show the contrary, the world of Eros and the sympathy of all things.

Remo

_________________
'Here stands the mean uncomely stone,
Tis very cheap in price!
The more it is despised by fools,
The more loved by the wise.'
(C.G. Jung, MDR, p. 253)
WebSite: http://www.paulijungunusmundus.eu


Fri May 05, 2006 6:04 pm
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Hi all

As we have seen, Carl Jung states that the main trouble behind schizophrenia is the behaviour of the ego. It is generally acknowledged that schizophrenic patients are very intelligent. In our time this means an identification with the intellectual intelligence, with the (perverted) Logos.

But there exists another principle, complementary (in the sense of quantum physics) to the Logos: the Eros. I define this principle after its original meaning, i.e., connectedness of everthing with everything. It is the basis of human and animal relationship, the basis of sex, of course, but it is much more general than this human drive. Today, we repress this principle in a very deep manner, therefore, we are so sex-possessed, and live this principle all instinctively, i.e., in promiscuitive sexuality. [Some years ago, I heard of a psychiatrist (Californian, as much as I remember), who boasted of having fucked 10'000 (yes!) different women…].

I compare the background of this compensatory Eros principle also with the quantum physical wave principle (in opposition to the Logos = particle), and it is exatly this what Jung, in the above letter, calls „the sympathy of all things“. It is also the principle behind synchronicity. Jung describes it in more detail in his synchronicity essay; see CW 8, §§ 924. We find it in Taoism as „the thinking in terms of the whole“, in the „medieval, pre-scientific psychology“ as the identity of the microcosm with the macrocosm or the principle of correspondentia, in Philo, Plotin and Theophrastus in the antique times, etc.

Eros means becoming one with a beloved person, and everyone who fell only once in love, knows what I mean: You feel the beloved one even at the other end of the world; when you remember to phone her, she was just doing the same; you can „read her thoughts“ (telepathy); and it is the principle behind the instinctive certitude mothers have of the psychic state of their children, etc.

In order to become one with the other one, you have to give up your will and purposefulness, i.e., one of the most important contents of the Logos principle. This is why parents do not like it too much when their children in highschool fall in love. Then they are not interested in learning anymore, but only in the relationship; the Logos particle becomes an Eros wave…!

On this basis, one can also define a complementary principle to the Logos consciousness. I call it the Eros consciousness. Carl Jung describes this state as the „abaissement du niveau mental“, but IMO, this definition is wrong. Eros consciousness is not an „abaissement“, i.e., a descent. It means a conscious abandoning of the Logos and entering a different consciousness! Jung’s – and of course also science’s - definition implies that „mental“, i.e., „psychic“ belongs only to the Logos principle. This identification is it, what is so incredibly dangerous, for the individual as well as for our world.

Psyche can also have to do with Eros – or it is even much closer to the Eros principle. Only since the invention of the application of mathematics in the 17th century (Galilei, Kepler, Newton), which included a victory of the Logos over the original Medieval Eros consciousness, natural science identifies the psyche with an intellectual habitude. Therefore, what we need is what I call the Eros consciousness, i.e., a consciousness, in which psyche is together with (introverted) feeling and intuition (and not with thinking, as in the Logos principle).

And now we are back to the Jung quote I gave:

Quote:
“Your question concerning synchronicity and ideas of reference is very interesting indeed. I have often found that synchronistic experiences were interpreted by schizophrenics as delusions. … The schizophrenic’s interpretation is morbidly narrow because it is mostly restricted to the intentions of other people and to his own ego-importance. The normal interpretation, so far as this is possible at all, is based on the philosophic premise of the sympathy of all things, or something of that kind. …


We see now, that schizophrenics identify with what I call the Logos consciousness. Further, they do it in a “morbidly narrow” way. Therefore they begin to argue in some sort of a magical causality and begin to think as follows: I am a superman, therefore I can change the course of the world. Or together with a paranoia: All the other people influence me with magical means, they are possessed by the devil.

This is what Jung means with “restricted to the intentions of other people” and “own ego-importance”.

We understand now also the continuation of the quote (in my interpretation) much better:

Quote:
Ideas of reference arise as a concomitant symptom of the patient’s wrong understanding, and consequent repression, of his psychic situation. Then what should normally have been an expression of the sympathy of all things turns into a pseudo-rationalistic attempt to explain the missing sympathy, so in place of the uniting Eros he feels a divisive fear or a hatred [emphasis mine] which is its opposite.The pathological factor is that the original participation in all things is perverted into a negation on rational or other plausible grounds [emphasis mine] which seem obvious enough to the average intelligence. Not only is no account taken of the significance of this sympathy, but the religious attitude is also lacking which sees in it a divine will that has to be served accordingly.”


The „repression of his psychic situation“ and the associated „ideas of reference“ mean a repression of the Eros consciousness. Therefore, they go on functioning in a perverted Logos consciousness and believe in a wrong causality (Jung: "rationalistic attempt to explain the missing sympathy"), in which they state that the world behaves after the principle of cause and effect. Because of the wrong "ego-importance" (Jung), they think: „I am the cause of everything,“ or in the paranoid case: „The other ones are the devils who influence me in a destructive manner.“

The perverted Logos, the "naked" intellect, cuts every wholeness one can only feel with the help of the Eros principle, in pieces (as also in some posts in this forum [This sentence is related to the cgjungpage/forum, where I originally posted all this; RFR]), and the unifying Eros is combatted with all intellectual means. Hate and dogmatism become the main emotion in such discussions. Thus: "the original participation in all things is perverted into a negation on rational or other plausible grounds" (Jung).

The restitution of the Eros consciousness is, however, indispensably connected to the abandonment of the principle of purposefulness and will-possession, i.e., of the perverted Logos principle in general. This is true in the schizophrenic as well as in the „normal“ case.

For a Christian it would mean to begin to live the live of Jesus Christ at the cross: „Dein Wille geschehe, nicht der meine“, i.e. something like „Your (God’s) will should happen, not mine“ (don’t know the exact English expression). Jung experienced exactly this in the years 1913-1918, in his big crisis (which was not at all a psychosis, as some people state in this forum, because he was able to give up his will-possession; murder of Siegfried!), and later he describes this process as the acceptance of the counter-will of the Self (CW 14, § 151-3).

Back to the high politics: After Carl Jung, the Islam is the religion of the Eros. Therefore, what happens today collectively, is that the perverted "religion" of the Logos - the belief in the only right to exist of Logos - is trying to destroy the religion of the Eros.

This war the Logos will never win, because the principle of the Eros, and with it the World Soul, the complement to the Christian God, is constellated in the world of today and wants to live. If we try to destroy Her, She will destroy mankind.

Remo

_________________
'Here stands the mean uncomely stone,
Tis very cheap in price!
The more it is despised by fools,
The more loved by the wise.'
(C.G. Jung, MDR, p. 253)
WebSite: http://www.paulijungunusmundus.eu


Last edited by Remo Roth on Tue May 23, 2006 10:36 am, edited 1 time in total.



Fri May 05, 2006 6:10 pm
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DiscipulusMentis,
Thank you, devil's advocate

Quote:
I'd just like to play devil's advocate for a second, Remo. Concerning your example with the schizophrenic and the electric light...I thought Jung often described synchronicities as having meaning and importance only to the person whom has experienced it. Thus, what makes the schizophrenics interpretation of the blown light as a sign from God not "the right one?" ...

However, how can one judge what the true meaning of a synchronicity is? By definition, such events are only able to be interpreted subjectively, and how can one say that it meant this and NOT that? Not trying to be argumentative, but this point just seemed to necessitate expression.


It is true that mostly only the person who experienced the synchronicity can see the meaning of it. But here such a meaning is also obvious for any other people who experienced it, because the ego of this man exploded in fact.

You are touching, however, a problem I'm dealing with very intensely for the moment: Jung himself - and with him Marie-Louise von Franz - always stressed that in synchronicity there exists no energy exchange, but only the common meaning one should find out. This is of course true for the telepathic and the precognitive synchronicity. In the former the psychic space of the experiencer becomes flexible, in the latter the psychic time. Therefore it is possible to experience the two events (with the common meaning) as the two aspects of one event.

But how about psychokinetics, and together with it, how about the so-called Pauli effect? It's difficult to state in this case that there is no energy exchange. Carl Jung called such phenomena "vitalizing synchronicities", by this of course contradicting himself, because "vitalizing" has always to do with an energy exchange. [Sorry, I criticized the prophet of some people in this cgjungpage/forum...! :evil: ]

Therefore, I see more and more that behind or perhaps beyond synchronicity is yet a deeper principle, in which there is again an energy exchange, but in a magic way, not yet understandable with the means of science.

Back to our "synchronicity": If we look at it from this standpoint, we must say that this is a "psychokinetic synchronicity", i.e., one with an energy exchange. Some strange energy of this schizophrenic had the ability to let explode the electrical light.

And of course, such "psychokinetic synchronicities" are accepted by all the people who experience them.

I guess that the UFO phenomenon is such an event, too. Thus, all people who experienced a collective sighting believe that something very strange happened.

Perhaps it is exactly the "psychokinetic sychronicity" that has, in contrast to the "normal synchroncity", this "collective meaning"?

Remo

_________________
'Here stands the mean uncomely stone,
Tis very cheap in price!
The more it is despised by fools,
The more loved by the wise.'
(C.G. Jung, MDR, p. 253)
WebSite: http://www.paulijungunusmundus.eu


Fri May 05, 2006 6:13 pm
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Persephone

Quote:
I have a paranooid schizophrenic friend and I have noticed strange "things" happening in her presence. There is a sort of 'poltergeist' type of energy about her, that me and others have witnessed.


Yes, the same phenomenon as the one in the above "psychokinetic synchronicity". We know also that the physicist and Nobel laureate Wolfgang Pauli "produced" such effects, the today famous so-called Pauli effect. He was, however, not psychotic, but was - as we can read in a letter to Marie-Louise von Franz - afraid of becoming psychotic for a while in the early 1950's.

His trouble was that he was not able to accept that the energy term is bipolar, i.e., that besides the physical energy there must exist another one, the psychic (in the meaning of parapsychological) energy. The first one I call yang, the second one yin. Natural science does, however, not accept yin (because it is not manipulable by the conscious will; see below).

The manifestations of yin energy happened in a destructive manner in and around Pauli, because he was not conscious about this bipolar energetical aspect – though he wanted to integrate parapsychology into physics. He, however, wanted to integrate it with the help of a “head procedure”, i.e., with the Logos principle, having it like this controllable and manipulable by the conscious will of the scientists.

Yin energy – what some people call today the “zero point energy” or the “vacuum energy” - is however neither manipulable nor controllable by the conscious will. It happens “itself”, where and when it likes to do so: “La donna è mobile…”, the woman (the World Soul, the anima mundi, the repressed Goddess) is mobile, i.e., the Logos ego does not know where and when an event caused by yin energy will happen. Example: the UFOs.

When people do not accept that this energy exists and “happens when She wishes”, psychokinetic effects happen. If these people can however learn to accept it, they become able instead to observe meaningful real (!) incarnation processes that function after the today constellated archetype of the so-called coniunctio of Hermetic alchemy.

But such an acceptance is only possible, if the consciousness transforms into what I call the Eros consciousness: Jesus Christ: “Your will shall happen, not mine” (don’t know the exact quote).

This is it, in short, what, IMO, is so intensely constellated today, and extremely dangerous. Because the coniunctio archetype is constellated, but not accepted (for example by the governement), more and more such dangerous psychokinetic events will happen.

Can you imagine what will happen, if an atomic bomb will explode like this? Where will Bush find the terrorists that did this? Or will the cowboy with the nukes (as we call him here) immediately fight back to some virtual ennemies (that must per definitionem be Islamistic terrorists)?

I’m writing all this in this thread, because I really worry about the course of the world. The dreams I have seen tell me that such things will happen during the next few years. Then, we need some - I hope there are more and more - people who have learned to enter the Eros consciousness and observe like this the incarnation process that can compensate these destructive tendencies.

Or how Carl Jung expressed it:

Quote:
It is not presumption that drives me, but my conscience as a medical doctor that bids me fulfil my duty and prepare those few who will hear me for coming events which are in accord with the end of an era

I am, to be quite frank, concerned for all those who are caught unprepared by the events in question and disconcerted by their incomprehensible nature

Flying Saucers (CW 10, §§ 589-90)


Remo

_________________
'Here stands the mean uncomely stone,
Tis very cheap in price!
The more it is despised by fools,
The more loved by the wise.'
(C.G. Jung, MDR, p. 253)
WebSite: http://www.paulijungunusmundus.eu


Fri May 05, 2006 6:14 pm
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Persephone, let's go on:

Concerning your schizophrenic friend you write:

Quote:
Things like that often happens and sometimes I feel she truly has some sort of "psychic power", but her interpretations are often too "self-centered" and usually completely far-fetched. She sees meaning in everyone and everything, and it's always in relation to her, and it's often "bad" and scary.

For example, she was meeting a friend of mine in a restaurant and that restaurant was situated besides a store that sold knifes. For her it had some kind of death meaning, and became afraid my friend wanted to harm her.

Could the paranoia develop because of real synchronicity? Or could she provoke these things?


I guess that the paranoia belongs together with a wrong interpretation of the synchronicity with the help of a "wrong" consciousness. What I call the Eros consciousness should replace the (causally argueing) Logos consciousness.

I'd like to explain now this fact and the connection between synchronicity and psychic (psychokinetic) events a bit further:


A) Logos Self and Eros Self, synchronicity and psychokinetics:

As you have seen, I distinguish Carl Jung's synchronicity term from psychokinetic events. As schizophrenics experience often both thogether, there should however be a relationship between the two.

The psychokinetic events seem to be produced as spontaneous acts by the unconscious of schizophrenic people when the former is in an "exited state". [This does however not mean that every human who experiences such phenomena, is schizophrenic! It depends on the attitude of the consciousness, how such phenomena effect it; see below.]

This unconscious seems however to be a deeper one than Jung's collective unconscious with its center I call the Logos Self. This deeper realm I call the Eros unconscious with its center, the Eros Self.

If the Logos Self is "activated" (or in an "excited state") energy flows from it to the ego, and then a lot of synchronicities happen. In dreams we can see this "excited state", in the motif of the twins, e.g., two or more times the same number or unknown person appears, etc.

The deeper realm behind or perhaps even beyond the Logos Self seems however to function after the principle of magics. If this center is activated, psychokinetic events happen. Therefore we can observe psychokinetics especially in the surrounding of pubescent persons, i.e., in young humans in whom the Eros Self (sexuality, love, connection of everything with everything) is activated for the first time.


B ) The pathological behaviour of the schizophrenic

When such synchronicities and magic events happen, a schizophrenic person observes them with the help of a "morbidly narrow" Logos ego. This means that such a human goes on in sticking to the nexus of cause and effect. It is not able to transform the ego into what I call the Eros ego (see below).

Therefore, there exist two different cases: If the schizophrenic believes that the (alleged; see below) cause for the event is the (Logos) ego, the person suffers a megalomania. The insane believes that its ego can influence the world by will-power, i.e., by black magics.

We do not know if this is really possible or not, but we know that more and more people try it. In spiritistic séances it seems in fact to happen. However, the resulting "effects" are just nonsense. One cannot see any meaning in them. It is as if some stupid sorcerer's apprentices play with an energy they don't understand and cannot therefore deal with in a meaningful way.

If the schizophrenic interprets the cause of the event as lying in "the other ones", the person suffers a paranoic schizophrenia: All the events it experiences are caused by someone else or something else - and of course evil.

In your example: The schizophrenic woman thinks that the girl friend went with her to this restaurant next to the store that sells knifes because she likes to kill her. This is, however, nothing less than a projection of her unconscious black magics, of the wrong causal attitude of her ego, into the girl friend.

This is it, what Carl Jung means (in my interpretation) with the "morbidly narrow intentions" of the ego and the wrong "ego-importance".



C) Causality and acausality, God and the World Soul

What most people of today do not know, however, is the fact that the world behaves not only in a causal way. It is a great tragedy that we all think in the terms of causality, i.e., that we think that any event must have a cause. This is a residual of the scientific revolution that happened in the 17th century. Galilei, Kepler and Newton have seen that we can describe the world and its motion with the help of mathematics. Mathematics is however causal, i.e., functions always after the law of cause and effect.

Since 1895, when Henri Becquerel discovered the natural radioactive decay, we should however accept that there exist also acausal events, i.e., events without any cause. When such an event happens, we cannot say that it happened because of that and that. It has no "because"! It just happens as a "new thing", and is therefore a genuine creation act in nature.

Since the invention of natural science, the Christian God became more and more a causal deity. Implicitely most people believe that the principle behind Him is the nexus of cause and effect. Therefore most people of today are identical with the idea of the "cheerless clockwork fantasy" (C.G. Jung). They believe that God has once started this clockwork, and now it runs after exactly determinable laws up until the end (the so-called entropy). The same idea is behind the big bang.

Thus, the Logos ego interprets the world after this causal law, and only after it. Since Newton we know that the Logos ego is in fact able to determine the conditions of causal processes. Therefore, since then we believe in the force of the ego's will-power. We think that it is only the Logos ego that can change the world, and for that it needs an act of will. This means however a megalomania: The Logos ego replaces the God of Logos!

The tragedy of schizophrenic humans is that they are deeply identified with such a causal interpretation of the course of the world. Such a worldview contradicts however the fact that in their unconscious the Eros Self is constellated that behaves in a magic (i.e., acausal) manner. Therefore, their causal ego is convinced that it can influence the magic events that happen out of the Eros Self. This is however a power attitude concerning their relationship to the Eros Self. The latter fights therefore back with destructive means - the schiziophrenic outburst, in which the Logos ego is destroyed.



D) The solution: The Eros ego searches for a relationship with the Eros Self

If we look at other religions than Christianism, we see that there exists mostly not only a masculine God, but also a Goddess. In Judaism it is for example the Sophia. In the Hindu tradition Shiva, Brahma and Vishnu, the three main Gods (the so-called Trimurty, the Hindu trinity) are accompanied by their Shakti, the Goddess.

If we interpret the archetype of the Goddess in a modern language, we can say that it symbolizes the principle of acausality or of indeterminism. It is exactly this principle that Becquerel discovered when he found the natural radioactive decay. The decisive fact is that we cannot describe the radioactive decay of some few atoms in a causal manner, i.e., with the help of a mathematical law. Therefore, nobody knows which atom will decay as the next and at what time !!! This means that in the moment of the radioactive decay also the mathematical law describing nature collapses for a short moment. This so-called "quantum leap" is therefore a genuine creation act in nature, in which the old state collapses and a new and different one is born.

When the Eros Self is activated, such "psychophysical radioactive decays" happen. This Eros Self is what I call the World Soul, the anima mundi. In the Medieval times and in the Renaissance it was yet an accepted principle. Paracelsus, the Swiss Renaissance physician, described Her even as an increatum and as coaeternum, i.e., not created by God and as eternally as He.

The physicist and Nobel laureate Wolfgang Pauli had a premonition of the fact that for solving the so-called psychophysical problem, i.e., the solution of the problem of the connection of spirit/psyche and matter/body, we have to return to the philosophy of the (Hermetic) alchemists of the Middle Ages. He was however not yet able to see that there exists an Eros Self behind Carl Jung's Logos Self, out of which events happen that belong to the above psychophysical relationship. To convince him from this fact his dreams and visions forced him ceaselessly to substitute the term synchronicity by the term radioactivity, the latter seen and experienced not on a physical but on a psychophysical level. Because he did not yet know the Eros Self, he was not able to solve this problem. Of course, like this he was neither able to realize that for the observation of such an Eros Self we need an altered consciousness, the Eros ego.

I state therefore that we must return to the Eros consciousness, which was - in a more archaic form - the consciousness of the Middle Ages. The first step is the conscious quitting of the Logos ego, and the giving up of any purposefulness and will-power. It is the process Jesus Christ suffered shortly before his crucification at Gethsemane: "Yet, not my will but yours will done." With the help of such a transformation, the observation of the counter-will in ones own body and soul becomes observable. It is (in my interpretation) what Carl Jung called "the Christification of the many".

In other words, such observable events are exactly the above mentioned creation acts of the World Soul: In a spontaneous moment a creation and incarnation act happens out of the Eros Self.

But how can we observe such events? The 2nd necessary condition for the observation of such incarnation acts out of the so-called unus mundus into our space- and timebound world, is that this novel Eros consciousness is deeply introverted. In a meditative act we stop all thinking and focus on our intuitive feelings and introverted body sensations. Like this we become able to observe spontaneous and indeterministic acts of creation and incarnation. It is exactly what Hermetic alchemy called the birth of the infans solaris or the extraction of the red tincture out of the lapis (see Mysterium Coniunctionis, Chapter 6). Such a creation and incarnation appears in the form of inner images or also in what I call the "inner movie" that happen independent of our conscious will and fantasy. Mostly, they give us a deep shock when they emerge all of a sudden. Further, because they come not from the Logos Self but out of the Eros Self, i.e., of the unified psychophysical reality, one senses them as much more related to ones own body than normal dreams and visions.

With such a deeply introverted observational behaviour we quit the "creation will" of the Logos consciousness, i.e., the unconscious identity with the causal God. Creation happens now then, when the World Soul wishes it, as a consequence of an unforeseeable, acausal and indeterministc act, and not as a causal act of the Logos ego anymore.

This is it, what not only schizophrenic but also "normal" power-possessed humans will have to learn in the near future. Because this novel attitude is constellated, but we are unconscious about the necessity of a conscious integration of it, UFO encounter and abduction victims experience such creation and incarnation phenomena in the outside.

It is an observable fact that today the Eros Self is in an excited state. Unfortunately its magic "births" "hit" mostly a narrow minded Logos ego. Therefore, we can predict without having to be a prophet that UFO encounter and abduction phenomena will increase in an exponential way in the near future. I am further convinced that the course of the world will depend on the way how we can deal with these real incarnation phenomena.

Isn't it nice that I had to formulate these ideas exactly at Pentecost?

All the best

Remo

_________________
'Here stands the mean uncomely stone,
Tis very cheap in price!
The more it is despised by fools,
The more loved by the wise.'
(C.G. Jung, MDR, p. 253)
WebSite: http://www.paulijungunusmundus.eu


Fri May 05, 2006 6:16 pm
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Hi DiscipulusMentis

Quote:
Hey Remo,

Your concept of quitting the identification with the Logos Self (causal and deterministic) and identifying witht he acausal element of the Eros Self reminds me somewhat of the myth of the Fisher King. He ends up a jaded, old, weary king in search of his Holy Grail, yet never finding it (too much identification with the Logos will-centered ego). However, restoration and regeneration come about for the Fisher King not by a conscious cause-effect act of his Logos ego, but rather due to the acausal and indeterministic interaction with the Fool who brings him a chalice of water. I just drew the connection between these two explanations. It's interesting how myths really do mirror the rationalistic thought of philosophy/psychology but in a much simpler and more poignant way.


Perfect !!!

It is indeed the Fisher King of the Grail legend, who is in fact the King of the Grail, that is - together with Perceval - behind what I am trying to describe in a modern language. Perceval is the ego that has to transform from Logos to Eros, the Fisher King is the archetype of the Christian human, split off of his collective pagan shadow, therefore hurt by the lance at his hips. The lance is itself the liberator of sex (in the unconscious case) as well as of Eros in general in the conscious case.

The integration of the lance, i.e., the healing of the Grail King (the split - because of the Christian development - of Logos, symbolized by the sword, and Eros, symbolized by the lance) needs however man. Isaak Luria's Cabballa!

I guess you know the book by Emma Jung, finished by Marie-Louise von Franz about the Grail legend, now also translated into English (for the moment I have only the original German version). Everything what is important in this context is described in the Chapter about the suffering King of the Grail.

Yes, in this incredibly deep vision of Chrétien and Wolfram - with many Celtic and Germanic roots - we find the archetypal model of the myth of our time.

Remo

PS: Perhaps you remember also the two letters Wolfgang Pauli wrote to Emma Jung (see AaA, [42P], and especially [44P]), in which he tried to combine the Grail legend with the Seal of Solomon respectively with the three spindles (a symbol of the "lower Trinity"). It seems that he saw the repressed pagan part of the Grail King as a parallel to Merlin. This magician appeared him as the so-called "stranger", who was the "Antiscientist" that sees the universities "as the place and symbol of his oppression". He is a magician who thinks of scientists as being "completely ignorant and uneducated", and thinks that "the ancient writings on magic" should be "a preliminary stage for people with no education (as e.g. myself)[Pauli!])."

Very funny!

PS2: The last book Pauli read was "Der Magier" ("The Magician", a book about Albertus Magnus) by Rudolf Baumgardt. Then he died.

_________________
'Here stands the mean uncomely stone,
Tis very cheap in price!
The more it is despised by fools,
The more loved by the wise.'
(C.G. Jung, MDR, p. 253)
WebSite: http://www.paulijungunusmundus.eu


Fri May 05, 2006 6:18 pm
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Hi Persephone

Quote:
I'll have to re-read your post a few times to fully grasp what you are saying, I find it fascinating how it all connects.


Yes, it is my fate to try to find all these backgrounds and connections.

I had, myself, such experiences with psychotic people. And I can tell you: It is one of the most horrible experiences of my life! The really crazy aspect of all this is that one of them was a Jungian analyst, licenced by the official C.G. Jung Institute of Zurich, the "mother of all Jung institutes" ...

Remo

_________________
'Here stands the mean uncomely stone,
Tis very cheap in price!
The more it is despised by fools,
The more loved by the wise.'
(C.G. Jung, MDR, p. 253)
WebSite: http://www.paulijungunusmundus.eu


Fri May 05, 2006 6:18 pm
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Don

Quote:
What exactly you mean when you say that the [coniunctio] archetype is constellated?


Sorry, this was a bit short. I hope I can publish something about it in the next few weeks in the internet. I began with this in http://www.psychovision.ch/synw/sealofs ... tion51.htm .

In short: The Genesis, the creation myth of the Christian eon, is a myth in which a masculine god creates the world by separation (as you can read at the beginning of the Old Testament). The word "analysis" means the same: separation, fragmentation, splitting in parts. "Christian" science followed this archetype and created the scientific method of analysis. Everything is cut in parts, then one looks at the attributes of the parts and like this creates a new world. But it is, as Wolfgang Pauli postulated, an "infertile world" that is invented like this.

Today, however, a new sort of Creation myth is constellated, the coniunctio. The word means - as you can read in Jung's books about alchemy - the sexual union of a god with a goddess. Therefore it is - in contrast to the Genesis - a synthetic myth. The splitted parts come together again.

The coniunctio was the archetype behind the so-called Hermetic alchemy (but not behind Neoplatonic alchemy). It was the archetype Wolfgang Pauli was very fascinated of. This is why he wrote his so-called "Kepler essay", which is however as well an essay about his antagonist, the alchemist Robert Fludd.

When the god and the goddess have their sexual meeting, a new world is created. This new world is however not located in heaven (as in Neoplatonic alchemy) or on earth (i.e., in matter, as in science), but it is an intermediate world between the two. This is the world of the so-called subtle body (Paracelsus, Gerardus Dorneus, Robert Fludd).

The coniunctio archetype of Hermetic alchemy belongs together with the so-called incarnatio, i.e., the incarnation of "new living matter" into our space- and timebound world, out of the so-called unus mundus, the potential "world before the world". It is, of course, very natural, that a sexual coniunctio results in an incarnatio of a child (out of the intermediate world that was created in the sexual act). This child Robert Fludd called the infans solaris, the sun child, which would better be called the sun/moon child (as some alchemists did in fact).

Gerardus Dorneus called this result the red tincture that is extracted from the lapis, the stone. This motif shows us that the extraction of the red tincture is a procedure that follows the creation of the lapis, the latter being the last goal of most alchemists. Therefore Dorneus and Fludd went one important step further than the other alchemists.

The red tincture and the infans solaris are also called the medicina catholica, the all-healing medicine, or the Alexipharmakum, the counter-poison.

What does this mean for us today? One can show that the visions of people who experience UFO abductions, follow this archetypal event of the coniunctio. Therefore, what these people experience, is a real revolution. They observe the results of the novel creation myth, constellated at the beginning of the 21st century. This is why the work of John E. Mack with "his" abductees is so important. We have many proofs that these people - at least the ones who do not become the new gurus - are not psychotic, i.e., have delusions and hallucinations, but that they observe exactly this new creation following the today constellated archetype of the coniunctio.

As long as these people stay in what I call the Logos ego, their experiences are negative (as Persephone stressed above). Mostly, during the abduction their consciousness is however spontaneously transformed into the Eros ego. Then the experiences of the abductees change. They become positive. The reason is that like this the abductees have (at least unconsciously) accepted that they must observe the coniunctio, the today constellated archetype of the birth of the novel world.

Hope I was able to clarify all this a bit.

Remo

_________________
'Here stands the mean uncomely stone,
Tis very cheap in price!
The more it is despised by fools,
The more loved by the wise.'
(C.G. Jung, MDR, p. 253)
WebSite: http://www.paulijungunusmundus.eu


Last edited by Remo Roth on Sat May 06, 2006 5:35 pm, edited 1 time in total.



Fri May 05, 2006 6:19 pm
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Hi all
Quote:
Because the coniunctio archetype is constellated, but not accepted (for example by the governement), more and more such dangerous psychokinetic events will happen.


I can now specify the above statement.

The acceptance of the coniunctio archetype would mean the acceptance of the fact that today very strange things happen we cannot understand with the Logos ego, especially not with the narrow minded scientific intellect and the political attitude of today. It means further accepting our helplessness and fear of such events.

The high politics, however, is not able to understand that with the help of a power attitude we cannot approach these novel events. The archetypes behind it, the God and the Goddess of the 21st century, are in fact much stronger than we are.

Therefore, the first deed of the governements, especially of the US, would be to tell us that they are as helpless as we all are. Only by such an attitude we could learn how to behave in relation to all these "E.T.s".

Further, also scienctists should learn that they are

Quote:
"completely ignorant and uneducated", and consider that "the ancient writings on magic" should be "a preliminary stage for [scientific] people with no education..." (as the inner magician told W. Pauli)



Otherwise this beautiful world and with it the whole universe will be destroyed.

Remo

_________________
'Here stands the mean uncomely stone,
Tis very cheap in price!
The more it is despised by fools,
The more loved by the wise.'
(C.G. Jung, MDR, p. 253)
WebSite: http://www.paulijungunusmundus.eu


Fri May 05, 2006 6:22 pm
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Hi,

I tried to 'communicate' a while back, on the '11:11 thread', but realise now that this was a wrong approach. I have since forgotten my password for this forum, but sure i'll find it again soon! I read this thread, and had to comment, as it struck more than just a chord with my understanding...


This is a very important thread.

I think its meaning needs to be translated into 'laymans' terms, for the 'average' person, but it contains the ingredients to build a much more 'stable' environment for ourselves.

My question would be this...
How do we promote a furthering of consciousness in the 'layman' so that he/she can understand the meaning of what is being said here, on his/her own terms?

In today's 'busy' world, the individual has little time to devote to the 'wonders of existence', and so the furthering of personal consciousness is seen as an unnecessary distraction from everyday living.

How to simplfy, and make accessable this vital information?

Would this be the traditional 'role' of 'art'? (now movies, books, music, etc?)

Regards,
Steve.

P.S. Sorry if I caused any previous confusion :?


Tue May 23, 2006 10:01 am
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I agree with, Steve. I havent' had time to absorb all the information in this post, but I believe it is imperative to have it readily understandable for the average person.

I just told my brother, yesterday, of my 'schizophrenic' hidden life in which I believe I'm channeling some sort of information from the universe. I don't know why yesterday. It just sort of came out. But it was exactly 6 months ago yesterday 11/22 - 5/22 that it really hit me.

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Tue May 23, 2006 8:46 pm
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Post Greetings to Remo and All
It may come back to me what the exact month or so was that I first came here or rather to the main site. Probably a couple of years ago. Perhaps I would have just made a bookmark for future reference and might not have read deeper immediately into many pages, but I saw that Remo had known Marie-Louise von Franz who was of considerable interest to me right at that time. It has always been a matter of synchronicity each time I have returned. I was here at this forum at Easter. It seemed to me then that the time was approaching when I would sign up and find refuge here with this small community.

Remo has said elsewhere that if we cannot find our grounding in what might be called the belly brain, we and the world will not be able to face the doom's day scenarios fast approaching now. I saw last night here that Eduard Klarer had posted this image since my last visit in April:

Image

I concluded that it must be time for me to join here at last. I had just bought this week and was reading last night before being drawn to this forum again a book called Hara (Belly in Japanese) The Vital Center in Man by a German (see my signature line) and first published in 1956.

Schizophrenia and Synchronicity are two topics I have considerable personal experience with. My husband has severe paranoid schizophrenia but has been one of the tiny percentage that came back into a more normal existence and a professional career after almost a decade in a mental institution. There is a mild(er) bipolar (manic-depressive) condition running rampant in my family that disabled me for years in the 1990s. Recovering was a matter of getting medical issues taken care of like thyroid imbalance and lessening asthma drugs along with finding more spiritual grounding along with a structured work world again - a combination that has kept me in balance since 1998. A psychiatrist originally from India helped me taper safely off of all psychiatric medications.

So, here is my observation about active mental illness and synchronicity. Frankly I think synchronicity correlates more with manic depression than with schizophrenia. I had not only my husband to look at about this but the folks I used to sit next to in group talk therapy at our local mental health center when I was a patient. The fragmentation in most schizophrenic thinking usually makes chaos and nonsense of whatever is breaking through from within or "out there". Synchronicity correlates and works well with what I call mini-mania - just enough increase in the capacity for rapid thinking to take it all in and correlate it into something that does make sense. Beyond a certain point, the rush of coincidences breaks down and also turns into chaos (as in schizophrenia) such as in a major destructive manic episode.

Anyhow, I am not here to just intellectualize about these things. That is the labyrinth approach to wholeness that I have wandered around and around in for decades. It doesn't work! Looks like it's time more for the Belly Brain approach. See my signature line.

Suzanne

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Sun Jul 23, 2006 7:19 pm
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Welcome, Suzanne. Glad to have you a-board.

I was wondering if you could share a little bit more about that book you have been reading?

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Post welcome!
Hi Suzanne


Good to hear from you, and glad to 'see' you here on the unus mundus forum. Timing is of great importance, eh? It's interesting that you joined the forum the day after Mary Magdalene Day and several days before the last day of the Mayan year, just before the so-called 'day out of time'- always held on July 25 (according to Jose Arguelles calendar version). Seems a most auspicious time of year for 'belly brain' or should we call it 'belly heart' workings -- the 'dog days of summer', of just 'being'... ( most of us seem to be on unofficial 'holidays' right now, just watching the 'river flow'...)



Blessed Be,


Kristin

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Sun Jul 23, 2006 9:12 pm
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Post Reply to Michael
Michael wrote:
Welcome, Suzanne. Glad to have you a-board.

I was wondering if you could share a little bit more about that book you have been reading?


It took a while to figure out how to reply to a specific post here. I have not finished the book yet. It is not a read it all in one or two days type book.

In short, the author was German and learned about this Hara (belly) grounding from monks in Japan before World War II. Strange in a sense to be learning spiritual truths from our enemies of those years since my father and eldest half-brother were both in the US military in WWII. ':?'

Whenever I first showed up here a couple of years ago, not by searching for anything about Jung, but from a link at another site, I started reading Remo's long pages and came across something on a topic I had been pondering. He said in effect that Westerners have been doing their meditative focus in the head I think he said at the Ajna chakra. Eckhart Tolle says something similar and is not beneath the surface just another New Age superficial guru. He did indeed change his real first name to Eckhart in honor or the Christian mystic Meister Eckhart. On a CD I have of his spoken teachings, Tolle was saying that most contemporary people have their identities stuck in their heads. He gives some simple guidelines for a more full body spiritual awareness. Darn, if I didn't soon find that I was not really shifting my identity from out of the head but was instead observing the other body locations still through the "Third Eye" region and not experiencing a whole physical and subtle body at all.

Then this process of discovering what's next went on to trying to figure out what our real center is before we kind of merge all of them. Most of what then enfolded occurred as synchronicities comprising different pieces of a jigsaw puzzle of the whole. Maybe heart was the right way to go. Belly business seemed to lead to some dark alarming things surfacing - just as I later saw in coming back here that Remo also described in his own experiences. I thought to let the garbage pit of the demons of chaos below the waist alone and stick with a compassionate heart focus. Didn't work. I was getting more imbalanced and more flying off into sudden emotional eruptions as some new crises in my personal life were happening.

This month quite suddenly my boss told me I am out of my nanny job I have had for five years at the beginning of next month. My husband is in recent disability retirement due to his schizophrenia and other medical factors affecting his cognitive functions where he could not focus and complete his job tasks any longer. So, two of us out of fulltime work and income is indeed quite a crisis. My boss and the kids I nanny do love me and want me to do drop-in, but she is going to be staying home with them for the next few years. This all looked at first like a looming near total disaster financially because I am at an age now and kind of partially disabled physically so that I cannot just walk out and get another secure happy job like my present one.

However, what started out as a fearsome anxiety-producing event only three weeks ago has turned into an amazing turn-about. I was telling my daughter who lives nearby about this disaster and she said the timing of this supposed misfortune is perfect because she wants to hire me to take care of my own granddaughters instead of having to pay for them to have to go to after school care. She is a believer in synchroncity and thinks this is all going to turn into some great blessing. So did my other daughter who wanted me to come on vacation in August to see her and my grandson in another city, and she will pay me to be the nanny during that time.

Last week I took the 3 year old boy I still nanny to book store story time. I bought the Hara book, wondering if I was putting out my money for some nonsense I was getting due to one of those strong inner what I sometimes call "Jungian" urges. I am a highly compulsive reader and have taken in many thousands of volumes of non-fiction in my life mostly on religion, philosophy, psychology, myth, etc. That's what I meant in my post above about meandering around in all these head theories about how to find wholeness but never finding it while only accumulating more words about the subject. So far, from reading this Hara thing a few pages at a time instead of flying through it, I may wind of having to rate it as one of the five most important I have ever read.

One of my peculiar lifelong disabilities happens to be that I can only type with two fingers and have to look at the keys, so I cannot easily copy in some lines here from the book. The brief quote below from the Hara book kind of sums it up for now. Not to mention that getting the book and getting back here to finally join are also somehow very enjoined in timing and significance.

Suzanne

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Mon Jul 24, 2006 9:25 am
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Post Re: welcome! - reply to Kristin
kristin wrote:
Hi Suzanne


Good to hear from you, and glad to 'see' you here on the unus mundus forum. Timing is of great importance, eh? It's interesting that you joined the forum the day after Mary Magdalene Day and several days before the last day of the Mayan year, just before the so-called 'day out of time'- always held on July 25 (according to Jose Arguelles calendar version). Seems a most auspicious time of year for 'belly brain' or should we call it 'belly heart' workings -- the 'dog days of summer', of just 'being'... ( most of us seem to be on unofficial 'holidays' right now, just watching the 'river flow'...)



Blessed Be,


Kristin


Hi, thanks for the welcome and the synchronicity. I am aware of all the great frenzy of new interest in Mary Magdalene due to the Da Vinci Code. I have not paid much attention to that "was she or wasn't she Jesus' wife" aspect because I figured the inner signficance of this Mary was what to look for within this outer development on the popular culture scene.

The goddess thing has been showing up in dreams and visions - at first much to my great alarm. I have been very negative about the inner feminine at least superfically in part because of an unfortunate experience with my real Mother in childhood. But I have been able recently to take a real interest in a few women spirituality teachers and realized the wise old woman (like in the icon over there to the right of my posts) was starting to put in her appearance. A younger woman also appears, but I am not sure who she is in symbology.

OK, back to the immediate synchonicity. Here I am reading a book this week called Hara, based on Japanese teachings about the belly center of our potential Great Being. There are a few black and white photo illustrations. I was wondering at first over the oddity of a statue of Mary Magdalene in a German museum being used as an example of being grounded in the belly instead of the head consciousness. I went to Catholic schools until age 12 but have not practiced the faith for 50 years, so I do know about feast days and appreciate them in the other inner sense now of their mythic significance. I suppose I could really make something out of who and what the inner younger female might be representing since I would have come back to this forum most likely on Mary Magdalene day to read but joined past midnight on the following day.

You referred to belly heart instead of belly brain. At the library also in the last week, I found a "holy card" in a book for sale. I didn't get the book but figured the card was OK to take. I have been carrying it around in my mini-purse and looking at it whenever I have to open it up for something else. It is of the Sacred Heart of Jesus. So Jesus and Mary M. and Hara in one week seems to be saying something to me. Thanks for the synchonistic clue about her feast day.

Suzanne

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Mon Jul 24, 2006 9:59 am
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Post Re: Reply to Michael
Suzanne,

welcome to the Unus Mundus forums. I am glad a new member can contribute to our circumambulatio.


Suzanne wrote:
I thought to let the garbage pit of the demons of chaos below the waist alone and stick with a compassionate heart focus. Didn't work. I was getting more imbalanced and more flying off into sudden emotional eruptions as some new crises in my personal life were happening.


I won't use 'thinking' words about the above quote.
It seems that you do not have any real choice: body imagination in the wu wei stance, as we say. I can only assure you, out of my experience, that you'll be (in a positive/constructive way) surprised.

Suzanne wrote:
I am a highly compulsive reader and have taken in many thousands of volumes of non-fiction in my life mostly on religion, philosophy, psychology, myth, etc. That's what I meant in my post above about meandering around in all these head theories about how to find wholeness but never finding it while only accumulating more words about the subject. So far, from reading this Hara thing a few pages at a time instead of flying through it, I may wind of having to rate it as one of the five most important I have ever read.

Suzanne


Yes, of course, but nothing will ever replace the experience. Peace and liberation lie down there.

Best

Roger

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Fire over wood:
THE IMAGE of THE CAULDRON.
Thus the superior man consolidates his fate By making his position correct.
The fate of fire depends on wood; as long as there is wood below, the fire burns above. It is the same in human life; there is in man likewise a fate that lends power to his life. And if he succeeds in assigning the right place to life and to fate, thus bringing the two into harmony, he puts his fate on a firm footing.

I Ching #50


Mon Jul 24, 2006 10:00 am
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Post Greetings to Suzanne
Suzanne wrote:
It has always been a matter of synchronicity each time I have returned. I was here at this forum at Easter. It seemed to me then that the time was approaching when I would sign up and find refuge here with this small community.


Welcome Suzanne

and thank you for your frank words. This is what we need today.

My feelings told me that I need a rest. I'm shortly back with this post to welcome you.

The weather is much too hot here in Switzerland. Thus, tomorrow I will go into the mountains and not read the forum (and write) for a while anymore.

You're talking of a small community. For my taste it is already big, and I get a trouble how to answer all the posts. I decided to ask my feeling function, which gives me the answer. Thus, I beg all the people here not to feel hurt if I cannot answer every post. As Kristin formulated: We should find the synchronistically right time for an answer. Then, the right thing happens during the right time.

Suzanne, your experience with the nanny job is exactly what I describe like the old alchemists as
In stercore invenitur -- in the dirt we will find the gold ...

Only like this we begin to realize anew what conscious suffering is, the task so many people of today do not know anymore how to deal with. They repress the conscious suffering -- and get unconsciously depressed. And wonder why. And "cure" the depression with antidepressiva.

Remo

_________________
'Here stands the mean uncomely stone,
Tis very cheap in price!
The more it is despised by fools,
The more loved by the wise.'
(C.G. Jung, MDR, p. 253)
WebSite: http://www.paulijungunusmundus.eu


Mon Jul 24, 2006 10:49 am
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I too hope to find you amongst the Mothers.
Do I have the key to the tripod?
Kairos will tell.

Ryan

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Mon Jul 24, 2006 12:00 pm
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Post Re: Greetings to Suzanne - Remo, Thank you for the reply
Remo Roth wrote:
Suzanne wrote:
It has always been a matter of synchronicity each time I have returned. I was here at this forum at Easter. It seemed to me then that the time was approaching when I would sign up and find refuge here with this small community.


Welcome Suzanne

and thank you for your frank words. This is what we need today.

My feelings told me that I need a rest. I'm shortly back with this post to welcome you.

The weather is much too hot here in Switzerland. Thus, tomorrow I will go into the mountains and not read the forum (and write) for a while anymore.

You're talking of a small community. For my taste it is already big, and I get a trouble how to answer all the posts. I decided to ask my feeling function, which gives me the answer. Thus, I beg all the people here not to feel hurt if I cannot answer every post. As Kristin formulated: We should find the synchronistically right time for an answer. Then, the right thing happens during the right time.

Suzanne, your experience with the nanny job is exactly what I describe like the old alchemists as
In stercore invenitur -- in the dirt we will find the gold ...

Only like this we begin to realize anew what conscious suffering is, the task so many people of today do not know anymore how to deal with. They repress the conscious suffering -- and get unconsciously depressed. And wonder why. And "cure" the depression with antidepressiva.

Remo


Hello Remo, Of course I know you rather well from reading over your site over I guess a couple of years. You are a month and a half older than me. Shortly before coming here the first time I had rewatched a video called something like Matters of the Heart about Jung, and that time around had been very drawn to Marie-Louise von Franz. As I said above I had wound up at your main page from a link at a not directly related other site rather than from a search on anything Jungian. It was seeing that you had known her that made me stay around and start reading a lot, then going away for months, and then coming back, and so on.

To me there is a concrete real world of real physical issues involved with mental illness - while at the same time in another dimension - the dynamics and solutions are a spiritual matter. So, I do not regret the years I was on the psych medications or the tearing apart of who I had been before into somebody the same but very different. Out of that horrendous suffering came so much good that I could not wish that it had never happened. Whenever I go to any mental health related gatherings, and folks exchange their personal stories - I usually get remarks and even questions after from individuals in private about how did I ever get off of disability income, get back reliably into the work world, and above all get away with no longer relying on the psych meds like lithium, Prozac, and Xanax. I'd tell them, don't try it off the bat, it has to be a careful process. After your respite from the hot weather and recoup time for whatever else, I would like to ask you about some of the dreams I had during that crisis time which occurred at the first point in time where there was a major improvement as well as some new symbols that have been showing up in recent months as visions. No hurry at all. I can wait.

This community should not have to feel it is becoming too big (or too much) for you because it goes beyond you through the other members. In 1998 I was on my way off of medications and into fulltime work after years of disability. I came onto the Internet at Thanksgiving of that year. I had no idea what I was doing and could only type with two fingers but found my way into some depression chat rooms on AOL. It was shocking. Confused, frightened, desperate people were there screaming in capital letters, SOMEONE PLEASE HELP ME. I used to start typing only to those people. From that small beginning I recruited these folks off into our own chatroom. A fellow from Missouri helped me and we coached these folks in how to save their job, ask for accomodations in completing college work, get on or off disability, how to deal with the pompous jerks in the medical and psychological professions tactfully, etc. - practical issues that occur when somebody's life gets wiped out by mental illness. This went on at first once a week but then turned into a kind of nightly rescue mission where we could summon anyone we saw on our buddy list to make an instant group chat for a newcomer. Well, after five years of that the Missourian and I got burned out and could no longer do it. I wasn't even online sometimes for a couple of months or more. Then one evening I went on and one of the old chat regulars sent me an Instant Message saying in effect, "By the way, don't feel bad about leaving us because we learned how to do things for ourselves and now can tell others how to also."

So Remo, have a wonderful time in the mountains. Your community will do just fine without you for a while. I am going to the mountains of North Carolina to see my younger daughter, her husband, and my grandson in August, so I will be away too. Thank you for being the founder of what is here, for as you said on one of your pages, the time is coming when the Internet will go down, and only those of us who have learned the inner reliance will be able to deal with the vast catastrophes coming upon the Earth all too soon now.

Suzanne

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Tue Jul 25, 2006 2:00 am
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Post 
Remo,

You always give Yourself
And what you give is Gold

Ryan

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When the evening is spread out against the sky
Like a patient etherised upon a table;"
-T.S. Eliot: The Love Song of J. Alfred Prufrock


Tue Jul 25, 2006 7:34 pm
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Post Re: Reply to Michael
Roger Faglin wrote:
Suzanne,

welcome to the Unus Mundus forums. I am glad a new member can contribute to our circumambulatio.


Suzanne wrote:
I thought to let the garbage pit of the demons of chaos below the waist alone and stick with a compassionate heart focus. Didn't work. I was getting more imbalanced and more flying off into sudden emotional eruptions as some new crises in my personal life were happening.


I won't use 'thinking' words about the above quote.
It seems that you do not have any real choice: body imagination in the wu wei stance, as we say. I can only assure you, out of my experience, that you'll be (in a positive/constructive way) surprised.

Suzanne wrote:
I am a highly compulsive reader and have taken in many thousands of volumes of non-fiction in my life mostly on religion, philosophy, psychology, myth, etc. That's what I meant in my post above about meandering around in all these head theories about how to find wholeness but never finding it while only accumulating more words about the subject. So far, from reading this Hara thing a few pages at a time instead of flying through it, I may wind of having to rate it as one of the five most important I have ever read.

Suzanne


Yes, of course, but nothing will ever replace the experience. Peace and liberation lie down there.

Best

Roger


Hello Roger, I didn't reply to the above right away but somehow kept it in mind. A couple of nights ago I was confronted with a perplexing hynogogic dream about a reconciliation with the image of a public figure who is not someone I would want to be related with in any way and later a separate fierce anxiety going back to childhood that I always resist seeing farther into. I remembered what you said here and let go of the resistance and waited to see if I could tolerate the fear factor. An image appeared as if showing what the origin of the fear looks like which was insane and scary looking indeed. But instead of making me afraid, it was like an opening to I guess what you said... something surprising.

The next day something had changed. Things were falling into place about the sudden retirement issues facing me but still with some big uncertainties. There was some kind of feeling rather than knowing that things would go the way they were supposed to even if some of the signs at first did not look good. Or for that matter, my definition of good didn't even have to be what happened at all to be OK.

What was most striking is that a sudden big change had taken place in my immediate relationship with my husband. Without having "talked" about anything that would bring about a change, we were suddenly able to deal with his schizophrenic voices in a more measured way again. He was reflecting on them in a sensible manner as if the force represented by the scary image that I had allowed to surface rather than resist had led to some kind of inner healing for two people at the same time.

Anyhow, I am not going to analyse this but am just going to be witnessing what occurs. When I got to the end of the Hara-Belly Brain book yesterday, it was saying these kinds of things in confirmation.

Suzanne

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"Only if a man dares to entrust himself again to the depth of his origin can he reach the height for which he was destined." Karlfried Graf Durckheim


Sat Jul 29, 2006 5:50 am
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Post of love, not fear
Suzanne

Your dream experience (above) regarding 'facing' a fear followed by a subsequent altered 'state' in waking life remind me of our discussion on the 'fear vs. acceptance' thread, as well as some of the discussion we've had on the 'elephant threat' thread. It seems that a 'consious' intervention in dreams can have a synchronistic effect on our outer existence in this world (an effect we sometimes can't see right away, but which nevertheless appears to happen every time we confront deep fears in the non-waking state...). At any rate, I believe I have also experienced the kind of thing you describe above, though yours is a very significant example of this effect, just great.

What an amazing thing this is - it certainly seems to suggest that some kind of healing force can be 'reached' by such effort, or, rather, by such a 'non-effort' as simply allowing a fear to come forward in a dream (in visions, or while 'doing' BCI ) and observing it without dread! I would call this healing 'force' love, actually. Underneath of all of our fears and anger is sadness, and the layers go on until we have peeled them down to what 'lies beneath' it all - my heart tells me that the thing 'below' all of our layers is, well actually, our true LOVE. The Hawaiian kahunas say :

UA OLA LOKO, I KE ALOHA

or, 'All healing comes from within by means of love'. The 'eros' consciousness must be given a chance to operate, as it offers us a way to find our buried treasure and restore our real sanity, which is to say, to reinstate our conscious connection with the 'truth of love'. My thought on this now also is that if we face our fear with acceptance (which is, in fact, what 'love' is), there, beneath the fear we uncover, we will find only more acceptance, self-acceptance, which = our own 'self-worth', which simply put, is really our own 'lost' love!

It is my impression that this amazing discovery of our 'lost love within' puts an end to that strange feeling, akin to a feeling of homesickness, with which we are all afflicted while we remain estranged from the truth of the heart. That's why no other person in our lives can really heal our sadness, they can only help to guide us toward finding a way toward healing ourselves. No love partner, no therapist, no one, only our own eventual retrieval of this very personal 'lost love' (through the peeling back of many layers sometimes...) can begin the process of recuperation for us... It is a long, mysterious road, isn't it? But there is love! Yes, it is there.

Thanks alot for sharing your experience with us here.



Kristin

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Sun Jul 30, 2006 7:06 am
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Post UA OLA LOKO, I KE ALOHA
Suzanne, Kristin,

yes,

UA OLA LOKO, I KE ALOHA, 'All healing comes from within by means of love', this is it, except that I would write 'Love' instead of 'love'.

You see Suzanne, now that you have given a try, you'll never be the same. You know out of your own body/experience there there lies the path.

Just go on, thoughts shut off at these moments, and be. Observe lovingly, be the feelings and sensations, let them happen and transform you and the world.

Best

Roger

_________________
Fire over wood:
THE IMAGE of THE CAULDRON.
Thus the superior man consolidates his fate By making his position correct.
The fate of fire depends on wood; as long as there is wood below, the fire burns above. It is the same in human life; there is in man likewise a fate that lends power to his life. And if he succeeds in assigning the right place to life and to fate, thus bringing the two into harmony, he puts his fate on a firm footing.

I Ching #50


Mon Jul 31, 2006 6:37 am
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Post Re: UA OLA LOKO, I KE ALOHA
Roger Faglin wrote:
You see Suzanne, now that you have given a try, you'll never be the same. You know out of your own body/experience there there lies the path.

Just go on, thoughts shut off at these moments, and be. Observe lovingly, be the feelings and sensations, let them happen and transform you and the world.

Best

Roger


Thank you, Roger, for this key in a nutshell. I am retiring this week and will have more time to devote to the Inner Way. Witnessing rather than thinking about the images is starting to take place. Suzanne

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Tue Aug 01, 2006 6:56 am
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Post The Confrontation with the Demons
Suzanne wrote:
I thought to let the garbage pit of the demons of chaos below the waist alone and stick with a compassionate heart focus. Didn't work. I was getting more imbalanced and more flying off into sudden emotional eruptions as some new crises in my personal life were happening.


Suzanne

Hello, once again. And many thanks that you join our forum.

Yes, it seems that the solution is really the confrontation with the "garbage pit of the demons below the waist." I have written something similar in the kaleidoscope forum concerning a rape and a subsequent rape dream. See http://kaleidoscope-forum.org/talk/view ... b48dd#3304

The demons do not like to be neglected, they would like to be liberated and redeemed.

Roger Faglin wrote:
It seems that you do not have any real choice: body imagination in the wu wei stance, as we say. I can only assure you, out of my experience, that you'll be (in a positive/constructive way) surprised.


I completely agree with Roger.

Remo

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'Here stands the mean uncomely stone,
Tis very cheap in price!
The more it is despised by fools,
The more loved by the wise.'
(C.G. Jung, MDR, p. 253)
WebSite: http://www.paulijungunusmundus.eu


Tue Aug 01, 2006 7:20 am
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Post The Beauty and the Beast
Suzanne wrote:
... A couple of nights ago I was confronted with a perplexing hynogogic dream about a reconciliation with the image of a public figure who is not someone I would want to be related with in any way and later a separate fierce anxiety going back to childhood that I always resist seeing farther into. I remembered what you said here and let go of the resistance and waited to see if I could tolerate the fear factor. An image appeared as if showing what the origin of the fear looks like which was insane and scary looking indeed. But instead of making me afraid, it was like an opening to I guess what you said... something surprising.


This is what I call the inner quantum leap. Behind the insane and scary figure there is the healing force. It is the archetypal motif of the Beauty and the Beast (here in reverse order). Since I am limping (like the Christian devil) I was always the target for such negative and destructive projections (especially of Jungian psychoanalysts at the so-called C.G. Jung-Institute of Zurich). But today I know that it is the beauty behind the assumed beast which corresponds to my healing forces.

Remo

_________________
'Here stands the mean uncomely stone,
Tis very cheap in price!
The more it is despised by fools,
The more loved by the wise.'
(C.G. Jung, MDR, p. 253)
WebSite: http://www.paulijungunusmundus.eu


Tue Aug 01, 2006 7:28 am
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Post 
Suzanne wrote:
The next day something had changed. Things were falling into place about the sudden retirement issues facing me but still with some big uncertainties. There was some kind of feeling rather than knowing that things would go the way they were supposed to even if some of the signs at first did not look good. Or for that matter, my definition of good didn't even have to be what happened at all to be OK.

What was most striking is that a sudden big change had taken place in my immediate relationship with my husband. Without having "talked" about anything that would bring about a change, we were suddenly able to deal with his schizophrenic voices in a more measured way again. He was reflecting on them in a sensible manner as if the force represented by the scary image that I had allowed to surface rather than resist had led to some kind of inner healing for two people at the same time.


In such inner quantum leaps, the objective psychic energy (I call it inner spirit-psyche) transforms into what I call the matter-psyche with potentially higher negentropy. Since we observe these transformations and like this incarnate them, at the same time a second process happens in which the matter-psyche with potentially higher negentropy transforms into spirit-psyche with realized higher negentropy.

"Higher negentropy" means higher order, a healthier state, new life, be it psychic, be it physical.

The beast has transformed into the beauty.

Sounds complicated, but as an experience it is exactly what you describe: Since the matter-psyche belongs to the realm of the unus mundus, and the latter does not distinguish between the inner and the outer world, such changes and incarnations happen in you as well as in the surrounding. Like this people become the healer of their sick partners ...

Remo

_________________
'Here stands the mean uncomely stone,
Tis very cheap in price!
The more it is despised by fools,
The more loved by the wise.'
(C.G. Jung, MDR, p. 253)
WebSite: http://www.paulijungunusmundus.eu


Last edited by Remo Roth on Tue Aug 01, 2006 8:21 am, edited 1 time in total.



Tue Aug 01, 2006 7:38 am
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Post The War against Terrorism
Couldn't it be that terrorism is overcome by the confrontation with the inner terrorist? Instead of the "war against terrorism" of Bush, Blair, Putin, Olmert and other ones?

Remo

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'Here stands the mean uncomely stone,
Tis very cheap in price!
The more it is despised by fools,
The more loved by the wise.'
(C.G. Jung, MDR, p. 253)
WebSite: http://www.paulijungunusmundus.eu


Tue Aug 01, 2006 7:47 am
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Post 
Ryan wrote:
Remo,

You always give Yourself
And what you give is Gold

Ryan


Thanks, Ryan.

I guess that most people here give themselves. This is what I like so much in this unique forum.

Remo

_________________
'Here stands the mean uncomely stone,
Tis very cheap in price!
The more it is despised by fools,
The more loved by the wise.'
(C.G. Jung, MDR, p. 253)
WebSite: http://www.paulijungunusmundus.eu


Tue Aug 01, 2006 7:55 am
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Post Re: The War against Terrorism
Remo Roth wrote:
Couldn't it be that terrorism is overcome by the confrontation with the inner terrorist? Instead of the "war against terrorism" of Bush, Blair, Putin, Olmert and other ones?

Remo


Yes, this is Jung's 'point A' phenomenology as illustrated by Richard Wilhelm's 'Rain (snow) maker' story.

Glad you are back,

Roger

_________________
Fire over wood:
THE IMAGE of THE CAULDRON.
Thus the superior man consolidates his fate By making his position correct.
The fate of fire depends on wood; as long as there is wood below, the fire burns above. It is the same in human life; there is in man likewise a fate that lends power to his life. And if he succeeds in assigning the right place to life and to fate, thus bringing the two into harmony, he puts his fate on a firm footing.

I Ching #50


Tue Aug 01, 2006 7:58 am
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Post 
Aye. Welcome back, Remo. And good evening to all of you.

This thread sure has been receiving a lot of attention as of late, although discussion has deviated from its original topic.

Aren't fingernails amazing?

Love and appreciation,
Michael

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Tue Aug 01, 2006 8:12 am
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Post Synchronicity and White Magics
Michael wrote:
This thread sure has been receiving a lot of attention as of late, although discussion has deviated from its original topic.


Michael

Good evening.

I do not think that the discussion has deviated from its original topic. All this belongs to synchronicity, or better: to the world behind or beyond synchronicity. It is the world of white magics we have to deal with at the beginning of the 21st century.

Remo

_________________
'Here stands the mean uncomely stone,
Tis very cheap in price!
The more it is despised by fools,
The more loved by the wise.'
(C.G. Jung, MDR, p. 253)
WebSite: http://www.paulijungunusmundus.eu


Tue Aug 01, 2006 8:19 am
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