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The UNUS MUNDUS forum of Psychovision (Remo F. Roth) invites discussion of theoretical and practical issues of a possible union of Carl Jung's depth psychology with quantum physical principles.
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 Carl Jung's epistemol. premises and Buddhism/Taoism/Tantrism 
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Joined: Wed Apr 26, 2006 6:35 am
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Post Carl Jung's epistemol. premises and Buddhism/Taoism/Tantrism
[RFR: I opened a new thread with Tom's comments, since they point to an essential aspect of Carl Jung's epistemology:]

[Tom:]

Sorry if this is distracting.

With regard to Jung and Buddhism, one of his most interesting later discussions is the letter to Pastor Bernet, June 13, 1955 written in response to Bernet's criticism of Answer to Job.

Edinger discusses this in Evolution of the god-image,Section I (epistomological premises), Chapter 2 with commentary including thoughts about Nicholas.I can print excerpts as time allows later.

The full letter is in Edinger's appendix and in vol 2 of Jung's letters.

Still, both Jung and Edinger's comments are somewhat strained, and I believe Remo's application of Kopenhagen epistomology/BCI could clear this up quite a bit. I am especially interested in Remo's distinction between the presence/absence of images in Buddhism vs Eros observation.

Regarding the projection of the quaternio into heaven, it seems as if Pauli's alternative to get from 3 to the 1 as fouth requires first a (?conscious) DOUBLING of the three (getting beyond identification with opposites/beyond "reflection" which accesses the intermediate realm where there is exchange of attributes, death and new life as the quintessence. Then there is the intervening progression of quaternios until it's time for another "rotation".

Jung's strong identification with the logos meant that he (some random associations):

-preferred the anima to Salome
-would bow his head but keep it millimeters from touching the stone floor
-thought that the buddhist ultimate emptines was not accessible becasue the ego would be entirely extenguished and there could be no memeory or cognition of this
-strained interpretation (including comments on conscious psychological types) of the relation of the 3 and the 4 in fairy tale horses in Archtypes of the collective unconscious para 419ff

I think of coniunctio as a simultaneous separation and fusion, but the fear of fusion could certainly be a fear of acknowledging any meaningul complete extinguishing of the ego.

Sorry again to digress.


Wed May 10, 2006 5:04 pm
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Post Sorry for this long reply to Tom's post
Tom wrote:
With regard to Jung and Buddhism, one of his most interesting later discussions is the letter to Pastor Bernet, June 13, 1955 [Letters, Vol 2, pp. 257] written in response to Bernet's criticism of Answer to Job.


This is a very interesting letter since it shows Carl Jung's epistemological position and its relationship to Buddhism and Tantrism.

First he talks about "the circumambulation of a centre", the topic we are very much involved in our UNUS MUNDUS forum.

Quote:
"With increasing approximation th the centre there is a corresponding depotentiation of the ego in favour of the influence of the 'empty' centre..."


Then he compares this center with the Tao, "something unknowable which is endowed with the highest intensity". For Jung, this is the [Logos] Self.

Here we see clearly that Jung identifies the (bipolar) Tao with his (unipolar) Self (see http://unus-mundus.fr/viewtopic ... ight=#1007), what is IMO not correct. As I have shortly shown in this post, this happened in 1928, in Carl Jung's comment to the Golden Flower.

In the letter follows then the most important part concerning the epistemology:

Quote:
"The whole course of individuation is dialectical, and the so-called 'end' is the confrontation of the ego with the 'emptiness' of the centre. Here the limit of possible experience is reached: the ego dissolves as the reference-point of cognition. It cannot coincide with the centre, otherwise we would be insensible; that is to say, the extinction of the ego is at best an endless approximation. But if the ego usurps the centre it loses its object (inflation!)." [p. 259]


For me this is an amazing conclusion. Carl Jung equates "experience" with "cognition" !!! This is his personal limitation. Experience is not only cognition -- I called this way of doing science "creation by cognition" -- but also mere observation. Thus, if we approach the empty center, we can also just observe instead of trying to find any cognition about this empty center. The latter is nothing else then metaphysics.

This is now the central point. As a philosopher -- he was though he denied it -- Jung knows only the two epistemological states: being and nonbeing, or as he expresses it: the ascertainable and the nonascertainable (see also http://unus-mundus.fr/viewtopic ... light=#865 ). The epistemology of quantum physics shows however that there is a third state, the potential being (already Aristotle talked of).

The transformation of potential being into (actual) being is what happens in the quantum physical quantum leap, in which the wave function breaks down and out of the many possibilities one and exactly one reality is created.

Assigning this terminology to my psychophysical theory, I call such a scientific behaviour the “creation by observation”. It is the observation of the “singular quantum leap” out of the Eros Self in one’s inside (belly) with the help of the Eros ego. In fact, the Eros Self is the Tao, the unus mundus, the union of the god and the goddess, the yin/yang bipolarity. Carl Jung’s Self is however a substitute for the Christian God-image and thus completely “spiritual” – the quaternity projectied into the Heaven (W. Pauli). About the latter one can speculate, even distinguish God from his God-image – as he does in extenso in his letter to Bernet – but all this is always metaphysics. It is approaching the Self with the help of a cognitive procedure.

However, Carl Jung is right that the danger of such a procedure is the identification with God, with the God-image or with the (Logos) Self. Thus, it is very important that the Logos ego distinguishes from the Logos Self.

Since Jung follows the metaphysical theological argumentation, he can go on with the following very strange statement:

Quote:
”Even though you add to my ‘ultimate’ an ‘absolute ultimate,’ you will hardly maintain that my ‘ultimate’ is not as good an ‘ultimate’ as yours.


What a rubbish! A mere Jungian intellectualism. Carl Jung cannot see that the theological/philosophical “reflection” is nothing else than a metaphysical blah-blah, since he goes on to argue about cognition, where no cognition is possible anymore.

At least he continues then:

Quote:
”In any case all possibility of cognition and predication ceases for me at this frontier because of the extinction of the ego.”


However, at this point Carl Jung is not yet able to see that there the transformation of the ego should come. Here the so-called sacrificium intellectus is necessary, the transformation of the Logos ego into the Eros ego. Only the latter can observe instead of trying to get cognition.

But then he begins to anticipate the development that happened with his disciples:

Quote:
”…the descriptive concept of the self [is replaced] by an empty abstraction, the archetype is increasingly detached from its dynamic background and gradually turned into a purely intellectual formula.”


Thus, we enter Jungian theology!

In Jung’s letter follows then a long part about the difference between the God of the theologists – with whom the latters have had a cup of tea, and like this they know who God is (MLvF) – and the God-image, which is a little annoying.

But in the end Carl Jung comes back to the Pueblos in New Mexico and to Tantrism:

Quote:
”The Puebol Indians of New Mexico still think in the ‘heart’ and not in the head. Tantra Yoga gives the classic localizations of thought: anahata, thinking (or localization of consciousness) in the chest region (phrenes); visuddha (localized in the larynx), verbal thinking; and ajna, vision, symbolized by an eye in the forehead, which is attained only when verbal image and object are no longer identical, i.e., when tehir participation mystique is abolished.”


I cannot follow the latter conclusion. If one accepts the (very introverted!) Eros ego, one observes and experiences that we need a new, but deeply introverted participation mystique, the union of the little spider with the big spider in Roger’s dream. The Eros ego is allowed and even requested to unify and melt with the Eros Self, with the unus mundus. This is why the third and final step of Gerardus Dorneus’ opus – after the first of the unio mentalis and the second of the unio corporalis – is the reunion of the (renewed, ie Eros) ego with the unus mundus.

This is what Carl Jung was not yet able to do. And this is, IMO, why he was only able to “bow his head but keep it millimeters from touching the stone floor.”

[quote=Tom Guerry]I think of coniunctio as a simultaneous separation and fusion, but the fear of fusion could certainly be a fear of acknowledging any meaningul complete extinguishing of the ego.[/quote]

Yes, someone who has had the fateful process of developing the Logos though she/he is at home in the Eros principle, can unify these two aspects and like this simultaneously live the fusion and the separation.

Remo

_________________
'Here stands the mean uncomely stone,
Tis very cheap in price!
The more it is despised by fools,
The more loved by the wise.'
(C.G. Jung, MDR, p. 253)
WebSite: http://www.paulijungunusmundus.eu


Last edited by Remo Roth on Fri May 12, 2006 5:40 pm, edited 2 times in total.



Thu May 11, 2006 7:09 am
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Post Re: Sorry for this long reply to Tom's post
Remo Roth wrote:

This is what Carl Jung was not yet able to do. And this is, IMO, why he was only able to “bow his head but keep it millimeters from touching the stone floor.”

Tom Guerry wrote:
I think of coniunctio as a simultaneous separation and fusion, but the fear of fusion could certainly be a fear of acknowledging any meaningul complete extinguishing of the ego.


Yes, someone who has had the fateful process of developing the Logos though she/he is at home in the Eros principle, can unify these two aspects and like this simultaneously live the fusion and the separation.

Remo


I was circumambulating such ideas in http://psychophysical.free.fr/viewtopic.php?p=1004#1004 and http://psychophysical.free.fr/viewtopic.php?p=1006#1006

Conunctio as a simultaneous separation and fusion is something I feel very strongly too as illustrated in the opening dreams (which actually happened to me though I presented them differently.) see: http://unus-mundus.fr/viewtopic.php?p=156#156

Quote:
I see an extraordinary thing happen: a blue circle appears in the sky as if created by the pressure of an outer sphere against the atmospheric sphere of the earth. Inside the circle there are 2x3 dots moving in a circular movement on themselves and arranged in 2 triangles. They tend to swap their positions too.


I had a strong impression of a merging and separating process going on and on.

Roger

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Fire over wood:
THE IMAGE of THE CAULDRON.
Thus the superior man consolidates his fate By making his position correct.
The fate of fire depends on wood; as long as there is wood below, the fire burns above. It is the same in human life; there is in man likewise a fate that lends power to his life. And if he succeeds in assigning the right place to life and to fate, thus bringing the two into harmony, he puts his fate on a firm footing.

I Ching #50


Thu May 11, 2006 8:36 am
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Post Re: Carl Jung's epistemol. premises and Buddhism/Taoism/Tant
Tom wrote:
Regarding the projection of the quaternio into heaven, it seems as if Pauli's alternative to get from 3 to the 1 as fouth ...


Tom

I do not think that Pauli tried to get from 3 to the 1. This was Marie-Louise von Franz' idea. Pauli was as Jung not yet able to see that the fourth must be the Seal of Solomon. In several letters he also equalized # 3 with the third, and # 4 with the fourth. He did not see that the third is in fact on the one hand # 3, but on the other that the qualitative aspect of the third is an ambivalence or a bipolarity. Thus we have to bring together the quantitative aspect of the third, # 3, and the qualitative, the ambivalence.

Jung didn't succeed in this. Thus one finds throughout his whole work quaternities in which the fourth is ambivalent: The Holy Mary and the devil, for example.

Only if one accepts that the third, and like this the energy term, is qualitatively seen an ambivalence, one can also accept this ambivalence consciously and create a bipolarity. Thus we have as the fourth the bipolar energy term (2x3), equivalent to the Seal of Solomon. This is a direct conclusion of my modern interpretation of the Axiom of Maria Prophetissa I will describe in Chapter 6 of my The Holy Wedding.

The conscious acceptance of the ambivalence of the third leads also to the acceptance of an exchange of attributes, ie an exchange between the two parts of the energy term -- the "good" and the "evil", the causal and the acausal.

The solution of this problem was neither possible for the Christian Fathers nor for the Neoplatonic alchemists, since they did not accept the reality of the "evil", of the acausal (so-called privatio boni; see Jung's discussion with Father White).

However, the Hermetic alchemists (Paracelsus, Dorneus, Robert Fludd) as well as the Taoists (yin/yang Tao concept) succeeded in this task, though only with the help of symbolic images (since they did not yet know the epistemology of quantum physics, ie the acausality and the quantum leap).

It was one of the most difficult challenges for me to find this solution of the bipolar energy term (that will replace the bipolar matter/antimatter term of physics in a psychophysical theory of the future). I began with it already 30 years ago, and I had many very archetypal dreams about this problem.

Remo

_________________
'Here stands the mean uncomely stone,
Tis very cheap in price!
The more it is despised by fools,
The more loved by the wise.'
(C.G. Jung, MDR, p. 253)
WebSite: http://www.paulijungunusmundus.eu


Thu May 11, 2006 8:54 am
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Post Modern Mysticism
Tom wrote:
... getting beyond identification with opposites/beyond "reflection" which accesses the intermediate realm ...


These opposites beyond reflection exist only for someone who tries to "create by cognition". It always ends in a metaphysical statement, be it philosophical, be it theological.

If one accepts however that these nonobservable opposites are not accessable by cognition nor by observation, but that a spontaneous change, a singular quantum leap, is observable, then we can also indirectly conclude that this "nonobservable" exists. Like this the nonobservable emptyness, "God", the Tao, etc. become observable because of the change in it. Like this the religious and the scientific attitude have come together.

This is what I call the modern mysticism. In it the observation in the sense of quantum physics and the religious attitude come together. God is then not defined anymore as a metaphysical hypothesis, but as the one who is behind the observable incarnation processes. She/he is emptyness which is full of potential new creation.

Remo

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'Here stands the mean uncomely stone,
Tis very cheap in price!
The more it is despised by fools,
The more loved by the wise.'
(C.G. Jung, MDR, p. 253)
WebSite: http://www.paulijungunusmundus.eu


Thu May 11, 2006 9:04 am
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Post 
Tom wrote:
where there is exchange of attributes, death and new life as the quintessence. Then there is the intervening progression of quaternios until it's time for another "rotation"


Like this the original Hermetic incarnation process becomes observable. Its essence is the exchange of attributes that happens in a sexual myth in which the old king dies and like this the queen is able to create the new king, new life.

This new causal life seems to be symbolized by the quaternity, the phase between two quaternities by the Seal of Solomon and its inherent possibility of the acausal exchange of attributes, the twin process. Like this, there is in fact a series

{quaternity -> Seal of Solomon -> new quaternity}

Since 1945, and as a direct effect of the artificial liberation of radioactivity as well as of the nuclear energy, the acausal Seal of Solomon process seems to be accelerated in a unbelievable amount.

Remo

_________________
'Here stands the mean uncomely stone,
Tis very cheap in price!
The more it is despised by fools,
The more loved by the wise.'
(C.G. Jung, MDR, p. 253)
WebSite: http://www.paulijungunusmundus.eu


Last edited by Remo Roth on Thu May 11, 2006 9:15 am, edited 2 times in total.



Thu May 11, 2006 9:10 am
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Post Re: Sorry for this long reply to Tom's post
Roger Faglin wrote:
Conunctio as a simultaneous separation and fusion is something I feel very strongly too as illustrated in the opening dreams (which actually happened to me though I presented them differently.) see: http://unus-mundus.fr/viewtopic.php?p=156#156


Yes. Like this your opening dreams are a very impressive "première".

Remo

_________________
'Here stands the mean uncomely stone,
Tis very cheap in price!
The more it is despised by fools,
The more loved by the wise.'
(C.G. Jung, MDR, p. 253)
WebSite: http://www.paulijungunusmundus.eu


Thu May 11, 2006 9:14 am
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Post The Book of Consciousness and Life
The text contained within the Hui Ming Ching may be pertinent to this thread:

http://www.geocities.com/clearlight610/ ... ching.html

Thank you


Lewis

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Thu Jun 07, 2007 11:30 am
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Post re. Book of Consciousness and Life
Thanks Lewis for the really great link you provided above, what a great text. Pertinent, that is the perfect word for it. I'm going to have to check this out some more.


Kristin

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Post Green Ties
Me and another male figure are carrying a large heavy box in to what appears to be a ballroom, as if in preparation for some event. We are both wearing suits of a deep blue color with white shirts. I had purchased ties for the two of us. They were green.

His had funny little marks which appeared almost M shaped but the lines did not quite touch. As we placed the box into the ballroom and began to leave a woman commented that she really liked our ties (though it seemed she preferred his). She said, his was a green tie with frogs on it. Mine was made of alternating Green and light green horizontal stripes.

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Fri Jun 08, 2007 9:32 am
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