UNUS MUNDUS

The UNUS MUNDUS forum of Psychovision (Remo F. Roth) invites discussion of theoretical and practical issues of a possible union of Carl Jung's depth psychology with quantum physical principles.
(All posts are the property of their respective authors)
View unanswered posts | View active topics It is currently Sat Nov 25, 2017 5:09 am



 [ 14 posts ] 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Reply to topic
 The six possible observable events in a psychophysical world 
Author Message
Founder
User avatar

Joined: Tue Jul 05, 2005 7:25 pm
Posts: 2657
Location: Zurich, Switzerland
Post The six possible observable events in a psychophysical world
Carl Jung's metaphysical statements about the psyche

Quote:
Amplification:
In CW 10, § 667 Carl Jung postulates that anti-gravity belongs to the psychification of matter. In § 780 he continues as follows:

Quote:
”The positive results of [Rhine’s] experiments elevate these [parapsychological] phenomena to the rank of undeniable facts. This brings us a little nearer to understanding the mystery of psychophysical parallelism, for we now know that a factor exists which mediates between the apparent incommensurability of body and psyche, giving matter a kind of ‘psychic’ faculty and the psyche a kind of ‘materiality,’ by means of which the one can work on the other … living matter has a psychic aspect, and the psyche a physical aspect. If we give due consideration to the facts of parapsychology, then the hypothesis of the psychic aspect must be extended beyond the sphere of biochemical processes to matter in general. In that case all reality would be grounded on an as yet unknown substrate possessing material and at the same time psychic qualities … It would also do away with the aekward hypothesis of psychophysical parallelism, and afford us an opportunity to construct a new world model closer to the idea of the unus mundus … psychokinesis, would then become more understandable, for every physical event would involve a psychic one and vice versa.


I'd like to give here an epistemological comment to this statement of Carl Jung and like this answer some of Tom's questions. If someone is not interested in it, they can flash over it.

As I have shown in http://www.psychovision.ch/synw/sealofs ... 52.htm#521 and in http://www.psychovision.ch/synw/jungneo ... p2.htm#331 the talk about matter, psyche and spirit is completely metaphysical, since no one knows what these terms really are. Thus Carl Jung and Wolfgang Pauli agreed that they are just an unknown X.

Like this, one of the above sentences becomes like this: “A factor exists which mediates between the apparent incommensurability of X and X”, a further one: “X has an X aspect, and the X an X aspect;” A complete nonsense.

This is the trouble with Jung: Like the theologists, he talks in a metaphysical language. Thus, believers believe in him, nonbelievers do not. Or in a modern epistemological language: For the ones Carl Jung’s terms are being, for the other ones nonbeing. Thus the religious war begins!

Today, we are therefore in this unsatisfactory situation that Carl Jung's depth psychology is not a science. One can belive in it, but one needen't believe in it. Even worse: As every religious belief also this one will end in infinite splits (see Christianity), since the metaphysical "truth" can be interpreted in different ways.

Thus, we have to find a way out.

Remo

[to be continued]

_________________
'Here stands the mean uncomely stone,
Tis very cheap in price!
The more it is despised by fools,
The more loved by the wise.'
(C.G. Jung, MDR, p. 253)
WebSite: http://www.paulijungunusmundus.eu


Fri May 12, 2006 4:46 pm
Profile WWW
Founder
User avatar

Joined: Tue Jul 05, 2005 7:25 pm
Posts: 2657
Location: Zurich, Switzerland
Post Being, nonbeing and potential being
To make it short: Carl Jung states that the collective unconscious is being. Pauli replies that this is not correct, since only a believer in metaphysical statements can believe that. An unbeliever would say that the collective unconscious does not exist.

The latter is "the state of the art" in modern science.

Thus, Pauli argues that one could define the collective unconscious as well as the unus mundus as so-called potential being. The term goes back to Aristotle but was then, during the scientific revolution of the 17th century forgotten, since it was obvious that being is only what one is able to describe causally, which means theoretically with the help of mathematics and empirically with the help of the physical experiment, and all the rest is nonbeing. This materialism is still the usual worldview of scientists today.

However, with the discovery of the natural radioactive decay the situation changed. Physics had to invent the so-called wave function. This is a mathematical equation which describes the potentiality of all possible states in which a system can come during the so-called observation or measuring act. It describes for example 20 potential (ie possible) states, but the important aspect is that all these states are only potential and not realized. In the moment of the measuring process the wave function collapses. This is the today famous collapse of the wave function or quantum leap

[Today, in normal life this idea is used in a completely wrong meaning: If some sort of a causal progress has happened which brings a big progress, one calls it a quantum leap. Like this one falsifies the quantum leap to a process we can willingly produce -- and nothing is wronger than that.]

No one knows in the singular case in which one of the above mentioned possible 20 states the wave function will collapse. This is why this process, the singular quantum leap, is acausal. One cannot compute the exact state that will result, like for example in Newton's (causal) physics (with the help of the so-called differential equations), one can only describe a probability of the resulting states, if one has millions and billions of such events.

To give an example: One measures the hight of a man. The first time one measures 168 centimeters, the second time 192, the third time 184, the fourth time 152 the fifth time 201, the sixth time 199, and so on. If one does this many times, 201 was perhaps measured in 7 percent of the measurements. Thus one can say that the probability that we measure again 201 cm in the next measurement is 0,07. But what really will be measured next time, no one knows. This is the acausality of the measuring process. [Of course such an example is completely stupid in normal physics (one would say that the experimenter is drunk), but it shows very well the situation of the quantum physical measuring process.]

The important argument of Pauli [translated into my terminology] is now that if one can treat the collective unconscious or the unus mundus analogous to quantum physics, ie if one defines them as potential being and tries to observe such (psychological or psychophysical) singular quantum leaps, one would have a scientific, ie empirical proof -- and not a mere metaphysical hypothesis anymore -- that this world exists. This would be the big progress from Carl Jung's metaphysical depth psychology to a scientific depth psychology.

Remo

[to be continued]

_________________
'Here stands the mean uncomely stone,
Tis very cheap in price!
The more it is despised by fools,
The more loved by the wise.'
(C.G. Jung, MDR, p. 253)
WebSite: http://www.paulijungunusmundus.eu


Fri May 12, 2006 9:37 pm
Profile WWW
Founder
User avatar

Joined: Tue Jul 05, 2005 7:25 pm
Posts: 2657
Location: Zurich, Switzerland
Post 
It is perhaps a synchronicity that I was able to formulate and to publish the following on the day of the funeral of my Aztek friend José Zavala, May 13, 2006

The Axiom of Maria Prophetissa and the bipolarity of spirit-psyche and matter-psyche:

I’d like to talk now about a possible way out of Carl Jung’s metaphysical depth psychological theory:

It is a fact that empirically we can only observe energetical changes. Thus, if we can observe a change in the X, in the potential being called matter, spirit, psyche, collective unconscious or unus mundus, we have indirectly proven that this X exists. This is a conclusion of Pauli’s which is of utmost importance for the further development of a new science containing physics as well as depth psychology and unifying them in a psychophysical theory.

As I already mentioned several times, my modern interpretation of the Axiom of Maria Prophetissa,

Quote:
"Out of the One comes Two, out of the Two comes Three, and from the Third comes One as the Fourth."


shows that the energy term must be bipolar. I already talked about this problem created by Paul Dirac – Pauli: “There is no God, and Paul Dirac is his prophet.” – in my Rome lecture of 1994; see http://www.psychovision.ch/synw/gslectu ... e_p2.htm#2 . In 1928 Dirac transformed the negative energy, which follows out of his quadratic equation for the electron, into what one calls today antimatter. The reason is that the former is not controllable by will, the latter however is; thus a result of the power complex.

I am going now back a step and define a bipolar energy (and not matter) concept. In a neutral language I define the first aspect of energy as spirit-psyche, the second one as matter-psyche. We will see that spirit-psyche is the energy of “this world”, matter-psyche the energy of the Beyond, the unus mundus. Of course also this language is yet metaphysical, since I have only substituted the terms matter, psyche and spirit by two other ones. However, these terms are energetical ones, and like this we can perhaps find empirical proofs for the transformation of these energies.

Remo

[to be continued]

_________________
'Here stands the mean uncomely stone,
Tis very cheap in price!
The more it is despised by fools,
The more loved by the wise.'
(C.G. Jung, MDR, p. 253)
WebSite: http://www.paulijungunusmundus.eu


Sat May 13, 2006 6:22 am
Profile WWW
Founder
User avatar

Joined: Tue Jul 05, 2005 7:25 pm
Posts: 2657
Location: Zurich, Switzerland
Post 
Spirit-psyche, matter-psyche and the twin transformation process of Hermetic alchemy:

A further hypothesis is that spirit-psyche itself is bipolar. In a neutral language I define thus

physical energy
as outer spirit-psyche,

Carl Jung’s objective psychic energy as inner spirit-psyche.

It seems that it is impossible to transform outer into inner spirit-psyche, ie physical energy into objective psychic energy. This seems to be the reason why Wolfgang Pauli came to the result that quantum physics and depth psychology are complementary in the meaning of Niels Bohr.

I define further the matter-psyche as the other aspect of energy. This aspect of energy does neither exist in physics nor in depth psychology. It is an aspect of energy not yet discovered and explored, neither by science nor by Carl Jung. It seems to be a parapsychological energy, the energy of the Beyond or of the unus mundus. In all likelihood matter-psyche is dependent on specific humans.

[Here the individual comes back, physics has thrown out with its concept of statistical causality that replaces singular acausality.]

The matter-psyche is what caused the Pauli effects in the Nobel laurate (and in his surrounding). Matter-psyche is further “inner/outer”, ie we cannot distinguish between a subject and an object anymore. [Like this the “point-space” and infinity become one and the same.]

With the help of these terms we can define energetical processes. The most important that I define is the twin process:

{spirit-psyche -> matter-psyche with potential higher negentropy}
,

and

{matter-psyche with potential higher negentropy -> spirit-psyche with realized higher negentropy}


This process, or more exactly its result is observable. It is what I call the singular acausal quantum leap, observable during the Body-Centered Imagination.

Remo

[to be continued]

_________________
'Here stands the mean uncomely stone,
Tis very cheap in price!
The more it is despised by fools,
The more loved by the wise.'
(C.G. Jung, MDR, p. 253)
WebSite: http://www.paulijungunusmundus.eu


Sat May 13, 2006 6:36 am
Profile WWW
Founder
User avatar

Joined: Tue Jul 05, 2005 7:25 pm
Posts: 2657
Location: Zurich, Switzerland
Post 
Like this we can now translate Carl Jung’s metaphysical language into a scientific:

The depth psychologist is right when talking of “an as yet unknown substrate.” It is the hypothesis of the unus mundus respectively of its energetical background Pauli called the psychophysical reality, “an invisible, potential form of reality that is only indirectly inferable through its effects.” Thus, we do not talk of matter, psyche and spirit anymore, but of the X as the unus mundus. It is not directly observable, but if we can observe energetical changes out of it, we can conclude that it exists.

The energy transformations of physics:

Physics looks at the incarnated outer aspect of the unus mundus in our space and time bound world, ie it deals with transformations of outer spirit-psyche. These transformations are mathematically describable and observable with the help of the physical experiment. However, physics does neither know inner spirit-psyche, nor matter-psyche. Since the latters are not measurable with its means, the meter, the second and the kilogram (space, time and mass), physics simply denies them. However, according to my hypothesis, in the radioactive beta decay the transformation of outer spirit-psyche into matter-psyche takes place. Physics however is not at all conscious about this, ie about the problem that the neutrino/antineutrino is in fact, on a deeper, the psychophycal level, matter-psyche.

The energy transformation in Carl Jung’s causal theory:

Carl Jung’s depth psychology deals with inner spirit-psyche. It observes transformations of unconscious spirit-psyche into conscious spirit-psyche (et vice versa?). This is the process of becoming conscious. It is what I call the creation by cognition.


The energy transformation in Carl Jung’s acausal theory (synchronicity):


However, also Carl Jung’s depth psychology opens (unconsciously) to the matter-psyche. In synchronicity there seems to exist a twin process:

{matter-psyche -> inner spirit-psyche (dream)}

and

{matter-psyche -> outer spirit-psyche (outer event of the sync)}

the connection of which is acausal.

Since the transformation of unconscious into conscious spirit-psyche is a process of cognition and cognition is thinking, this process is causal. Thus there exists e discrepancy between two contradicting theories, a causal and an acausal one. It was Pauli who first saw this discrepancy in Carl Jung’s theory.

If we include however the matter-psyche, we see that the dream interpretation and synchronicity are two different processes, insofar as in the former the matter-psyche is involved, in the latter however not.

The latent meaning of the synchronicity we can interpret as an increased negentropy of inner spirit-psyche, a higher negentropy of the Self. Wolfgang Pauli assumed that as a result of (the interpretation of?) synchronicities this higher negentropy of the Self is reached. How this could be observable, I am not (yet?) quite sure. It is perhaps observable as what Carl Jung calls the preconscious knowledge of the (Logos) Self.

Remo

[to be continued]

_________________
'Here stands the mean uncomely stone,
Tis very cheap in price!
The more it is despised by fools,
The more loved by the wise.'
(C.G. Jung, MDR, p. 253)
WebSite: http://www.paulijungunusmundus.eu


Sat May 13, 2006 6:50 am
Profile WWW
Founder
User avatar

Joined: Tue Jul 05, 2005 7:25 pm
Posts: 2657
Location: Zurich, Switzerland
Post 
Three further ways of the energy transformation:

Besides physics and Carl Jung’s depth psychology – contradicting as a causal and an acausal theory -- there exists, as I mentioned, a further case. I call it the twin process (see above). This is a process, in which physical energy and/or objective psychic energy are provided with an increased negentropy. As much as I see, the twin process can happen in three different ways. I am describing them below.

UFO encounter

In the case in which only outer spirit-psyche, ie physical energy, is involved, the result of the process is observable as UFO encounter. Machines behave according to higher physical laws that do not obey our physical worldview.

The creation of crop circles:


There seem however also to exist processes, in which living matter is provided with higher negentropy. The first of these cases are crop circles, in which vegetative matter gets a symbolic knowledge, hidden in the number structure of these mandalas.

The so-called ETs:

A second case is the increased negentropy of human like beings, so-called “ETs”, which do however not come from other space regions, but out of the space- , time- and massless unus mundus. In them, it seems, we observe the highest quality of increased negentropy.

Remo

[to be continued]

_________________
'Here stands the mean uncomely stone,
Tis very cheap in price!
The more it is despised by fools,
The more loved by the wise.'
(C.G. Jung, MDR, p. 253)
WebSite: http://www.paulijungunusmundus.eu


Sat May 13, 2006 7:11 am
Profile WWW
Founder
User avatar

Joined: Tue Jul 05, 2005 7:25 pm
Posts: 2657
Location: Zurich, Switzerland
Post 
Summary

Summarizing we can say that we can distinguish six different observable energetic processes:

1. Physics (without beta radioactivity), in which the transformation of outer spirit-psyche (physical energy) is observable. No increase of negentropy!

2. Carl Jung’s causal theory of depth psychology, in which the transformation of inner spirit-psyche (objective psychic energy) is observable (dreams). It seems that like this the negentropy of conscious inner spirit-psyche (objective psychic energy = knowlege of the ego) is increased.

3. Carl Jung’s acausal theory, ie synchronicity, in which in two different processes, the inner and the outer, the transformation of matter-psyche into spirit-psyche takes place. It seems that with the help of the meaningful interpretation of the synchronicity the negentropy of inner spirit-psyche (objective psychic energy) is increased, ie the preconscious knowledge has become conscious,

4. The UFOs as machines with increased negentropy of physical energy, as a result of the artificial production of beta radioactivity,

5. The crop circles as vegetative matter, mandalas which show an increased negentropy of objective psychic energy, of inner spirit-psyche (higher knowledge) in matter, symbolized in their number structure, and

6. The “E.T.s” with increased biological negentropy.


Cases 1 and 2 are explainable with the help of spirit-psyche alone. In case 3 the matter-psyche is unconsciously involved. In the cases 4, 5 and 6 it is obvious that the matter-psyche, the energetical aspect of the unus mundus, is the decisive aspect. It seems that the transformation into matter-psyche and its re-transformation into spirit-psyche with realized higher negentropy leads to new physical laws (UFOs), higher vegetative structures (crop circles) and “higher life” (“ETs”).

Remo

PS: Sorry, for this long sermon. But it was "on my tongue."

_________________
'Here stands the mean uncomely stone,
Tis very cheap in price!
The more it is despised by fools,
The more loved by the wise.'
(C.G. Jung, MDR, p. 253)
WebSite: http://www.paulijungunusmundus.eu


Sat May 13, 2006 7:17 am
Profile WWW
Founder
User avatar

Joined: Tue Jul 05, 2005 7:25 pm
Posts: 2657
Location: Zurich, Switzerland
Post Association versus "Reflection" of a Dream
In dealing with the difference between transformation processes, the archetypal background of Neoplatonic science, and transmutation processes, the archetypal background of Hermetic science, I came back to the process #2 above.

Quote:
2. Carl Jung’s causal theory of depth psychology, in which the transformation of inner spirit-psyche (objective psychic energy) is observable (dreams). It seems that like this the negentropy of conscious inner spirit-psyche (objective psychic energy = knowlege of the ego) is increased.


This statement contains a discrepance, since on the one hand it is a causal theory (the dream compensates, ie reacts on the conscious situation), and on the other I assumed that with the help of the interpretation, ie by the cognition of the meaning, the negentropy of the inner spirit-psyche is increased.

The discrepance is solved if we emphasize the way Carl Jung interpreted dreams (and how I learned it from Marie-Louise von Franz): Dream > associations > interpretation. A real association is in fact an increase of the negentropy of the conscious inner spirit-psyche, ie a transmutation. When the meaning of the dream suddenly breaks through, this increase of the negentropy respectively this transmutation has incarnated into the consciousness. Thus, also a dream interpretation according to Carl Jung's and Marie-Louise von Franz' method is in fact an increase of the negentropy. We call this the insight in the meaning of the dream. The latter is always a deeply moving experience, an experience we feel with the help of the introverted feeling function.

If, however, one "reflects" about a dream -- thinking replaces the association phase -- , as it is obviously usual in modern Jungian circles, one does not get an increased negentropy, a transmutation in the spirit-psyche, a deeper meaning. One just replaces an X by an Y, as for example in the statement: "The elephant is a theriomorphic aspect of the Self."

This is why it is so important to follow the association process, as I showed it in http://unus-mundus.fr/viewtopic ... light=#186

Remo

_________________
'Here stands the mean uncomely stone,
Tis very cheap in price!
The more it is despised by fools,
The more loved by the wise.'
(C.G. Jung, MDR, p. 253)
WebSite: http://www.paulijungunusmundus.eu


Sat Jul 15, 2006 7:44 am
Profile WWW
Site Admin
User avatar

Joined: Wed Jul 06, 2005 8:06 am
Posts: 717
Images: 1
Location: France
Post Re: Association versus "Reflection" of a Dream
Remo Roth wrote:
The discrepance is solved if we emphasize the way Carl Jung interpreted dreams (and how I learned it from Marie-Louise von Franz): Dream > associations > interpretation. A real association is in fact an increase of the negentropy of the conscious inner spirit-psyche, ie a transmutation. When the meaning of the dream suddenly breaks through, this increase of the negentropy respectively this transmutation has incarnated into the consciousness. Thus, also a dream interpretation according to Carl Jung's and Marie-Louise von Franz' method is in fact an increase of the negentropy. We call this the insight in the meaning of the dream. The latter is always a deeply moving experience, an experience we feel with the help of the introverted feeling function.

If, however, one "reflects" about a dream -- thinking replaces the association phase -- , as it is obviously usual in modern Jungian circles, one does not get an increased negentropy, a transmutation in the spirit-psyche, a deeper meaning. One just replaces an X by an Y, as for example in the statement: "The elephant is a theriomorphic aspect of the Self."

This is why it is so important to follow the association process, as I showed it in http://unus-mundus.fr/viewtopic ... light=#186

Remo


I completely share this view Remo.

The feeling reaction one gets when the meaning of a dream 'clicks' to use Jung's expression, is something of an inner quantum leap. This is never brought by a thinking analysis. This is why I always say that i do not analyse dreams.
Association is the key... Nobody gives a meaning. It pops out possibly from the circumambulatio.

Roger

_________________
Fire over wood:
THE IMAGE of THE CAULDRON.
Thus the superior man consolidates his fate By making his position correct.
The fate of fire depends on wood; as long as there is wood below, the fire burns above. It is the same in human life; there is in man likewise a fate that lends power to his life. And if he succeeds in assigning the right place to life and to fate, thus bringing the two into harmony, he puts his fate on a firm footing.

I Ching #50


Mon Jul 17, 2006 6:53 am
Profile Personal album
Founder
User avatar

Joined: Tue Jul 05, 2005 7:25 pm
Posts: 2657
Location: Zurich, Switzerland
Post 
Roger

At least one man in the big wide world who understands what the experience of dream interpretation is.

:lol: :lol: :lol: and rofl

Remo

_________________
'Here stands the mean uncomely stone,
Tis very cheap in price!
The more it is despised by fools,
The more loved by the wise.'
(C.G. Jung, MDR, p. 253)
WebSite: http://www.paulijungunusmundus.eu


Mon Jul 17, 2006 12:28 pm
Profile WWW
Site Admin
User avatar

Joined: Wed Jul 06, 2005 8:06 am
Posts: 717
Images: 1
Location: France
Post 
Remo Roth wrote:
Roger

At least one man in the big wide world who understands what the experience of dream interpretation is.

:lol: :lol: :lol: and rofl

Remo


you mean: Image


Roger Image

_________________
Fire over wood:
THE IMAGE of THE CAULDRON.
Thus the superior man consolidates his fate By making his position correct.
The fate of fire depends on wood; as long as there is wood below, the fire burns above. It is the same in human life; there is in man likewise a fate that lends power to his life. And if he succeeds in assigning the right place to life and to fate, thus bringing the two into harmony, he puts his fate on a firm footing.

I Ching #50


Mon Jul 17, 2006 1:08 pm
Profile Personal album
Founder
User avatar

Joined: Tue Jul 05, 2005 7:25 pm
Posts: 2657
Location: Zurich, Switzerland
Post 
Yes, rolling on floor laughing ...

Image

Image

Image

_________________
'Here stands the mean uncomely stone,
Tis very cheap in price!
The more it is despised by fools,
The more loved by the wise.'
(C.G. Jung, MDR, p. 253)
WebSite: http://www.paulijungunusmundus.eu


Mon Jul 17, 2006 2:21 pm
Profile WWW
Site Admin
User avatar

Joined: Wed Jul 06, 2005 8:06 am
Posts: 717
Images: 1
Location: France
Post 
Or something like this?


Image Image Image
'''''''''''Image Image
'''''''''''''''''''''Image
'''''''''''''''''''''Image
''''''''''Image Image
Image Image Image


Hmmm...

Roger

_________________
Fire over wood:
THE IMAGE of THE CAULDRON.
Thus the superior man consolidates his fate By making his position correct.
The fate of fire depends on wood; as long as there is wood below, the fire burns above. It is the same in human life; there is in man likewise a fate that lends power to his life. And if he succeeds in assigning the right place to life and to fate, thus bringing the two into harmony, he puts his fate on a firm footing.

I Ching #50


Mon Jul 17, 2006 2:40 pm
Profile Personal album
User avatar

Joined: Thu Mar 16, 2006 7:16 am
Posts: 825
Location: Tucson, AZ
Post 
Image

_________________
Birth is the death of the life we have known; death is the birth of the life we have yet to live. (Marion Woodman)


Mon Jul 17, 2006 6:58 pm
Profile
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Reply to topic   [ 14 posts ] 

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
Powered by phpBB © 2000, 2002, 2005, 2007 phpBB Group.
Designed by STSoftware for PTF.