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The UNUS MUNDUS forum of Psychovision (Remo F. Roth) invites discussion of theoretical and practical issues of a possible union of Carl Jung's depth psychology with quantum physical principles.
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 Richard Noll's Carl G. Jung and Beyond 
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Post Richard Noll's Carl G. Jung and Beyond
<RFR: I copied the most important aspects of the thread Richard Noll's Carl G. Jung and Beyond in the Kaleidoscope forum ( http://kaleidoscope-forum.org/talk/viewtopic.php?t=415 ) into this UNUS MUNDUS forum thread, and I will continue it here>

I'd like to open a new thread with the topic Richard Noll's Carl G. Jung and Beyond. It seems worth do discuss some aspects of Noll's two books The Jung Cult and The Aryan Christ, since they help us to see Carl Jung in his historical context.

I opened the thread with a quote of Matt's post:
Quote:
One thing I learned from reading Richard Noll's attacks on Jung (although I found Noll an embittered twit and probably the worst scholar I'd ever read) was that Jungians have a shadow, and he nailed it. Although I was a bit annoyed that tripe like Noll's books was published without being run by real scholars first, I feel indebted to Noll for helping me see the Jungian shadow more clearly . . . clearly enough for me to start confronting it in my personal life.

Now, I never got the impression that Jungians were a cult who worshiped Jung as a kind of Christ . . . but we can get very close to this at times. And it's understandable in a way, because 1) Jung was an amazing thinker who combined breadth and depth like no one I've ever encountered, and 2) Jung DID actively pursue individuation and, therefore, the Self, making an enormous amount of progress in this quest. Whatever his flaws, it does seem he was a very brave journeyer/individuant who was able to work his way through some things that destroy most people. We are bound to transfer the archetype of the heroic individuant onto him . . . and this is the same archetype that Christ embodies (especially for the Gnostics).

And, although he gets to this in a kind of ass-backwards fashion, Noll does shed some light on one of the very real problems of individuation (at least beyond the initial stages): the self-deification taboo. This is a piece of the individuant's shadow that must eventually be faced. And it's no cake walk.

One last thing. We can define the "experience of God" in many ways. Without delving too far into poeticisms, I feel it is a very intimate connection to or communication with the Other-Self [RFR: emphasis mine]. This intimacy isn't easy to come by or endure for long. Very few people really want to face the Other-Self with an intact ego. I think it is very common (and yes, even for Jungians) to prefer the experience of God to occur at at least a dozen paces. Sometimes, we try to chalk this up to humility . . . but I don't know if this is really accurate. It is more like self-preservation.

Whatever the truth, there is certainly shadow here . . . and Jung's psychology doesn't give us a road map for facing this particular gaze of the shadow. Noll was right to point out that at this point, things get a little sketchy in the language of Jungians.

... This particular manifestation of the shadow may have something to do with the fact that Jung's psychology is very Christian, and the figure of Jesus does color much of the Self for Jung.


I will come back to some of these arguments, especially to what Matt called the "Other-Self." It seems that he experienced the Self in a very different manner to the one as it is mostly described in Jungian text books. This experience, which he describes also in the thread Ego and Archetype, page 4, post of Aug 11, conincides partly with mine.

Remo

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'Here stands the mean uncomely stone,
Tis very cheap in price!
The more it is despised by fools,
The more loved by the wise.'
(C.G. Jung, MDR, p. 253)
WebSite: http://www.paulijungunusmundus.eu


Tue Aug 15, 2006 12:32 pm
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Post The Deification of the Body
Matt

I did not read your statement before I wrote my answers above. I'm glad to find someone here who has a really scientific attitude which coincides more or less with mine.

I have only one reservation:

Quote:
And, although he gets to this in a kind of ass-backwards fashion, Noll does shed some light on one of the very real problems of individuation (at least beyond the initial stages): the self-deification taboo. This is a piece of the individuant's shadow that must eventually be faced. And it's no cake walk.


As Noll correctly shows, in 1925 Carl Jung presented the third initial vision of 1913, which he did however not include in MDR. It is the vision of the deification of the body. Not the deification of the ego is ment -- this would mean an incredible inflation -- but the deification of the body, the transformation of the body into the subtle body. This happens in the so-called unio corporalis, and Jung himself confessed (to Wolfgang Pauli) that he did not reach it during his earthly life. This is perhaps why he did not speak anymore of this third initial vision of 1913 (Salome, the snake and the body as AION = deified) shortly before his death.

The observation of the "deification of the body" has mostly to do with a corporeal disease -- or it happens partly in the death struggle. During her last 13 years of suffering Marie-Louise von Franz realized this deification of the body, which she described before theoretically in her book Dreams and Death.

She was not able to describe her personal process in a book anymore. This is perhaps why not so many people can understand that there something happened that exceeds Carl Jung's psychology.

Remo

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'Here stands the mean uncomely stone,
Tis very cheap in price!
The more it is despised by fools,
The more loved by the wise.'
(C.G. Jung, MDR, p. 253)
WebSite: http://www.paulijungunusmundus.eu


Tue Aug 15, 2006 12:36 pm
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Post Noll is Shocked of the Deification of the Body
When one reads the two books, one feels that Noll is completely shocked of the idea of a deification. This idea is however not new. Already the Christian (!) Gnostics were fascinated by exactly this goal. Later then it was Hermetic alchemy (but not Neoplatonic alchemy) which had exactly the same goal, the deification of the body.

When now Richard Noll is so afraid of this idea, the deification of the body, we should ask why. At the surface of his argument we see that he is, as also many modern "post-Jungian" Jungians, someone who is a pre-Jungian, since he reduces Carl Jung's depth psychology to a personalistic psychology. (See also Edinger's interview in http://www.junginstitute.org/pdf_files/ ... p51-60.pdf )

If one argues like this, one can only come to Noll's conclusions: That Carl Jung's depth psychology is a (pseudo-religious) cult. The same reproach we hear however form the Freudian side. It is obivous that a personalistic psychology can only argue like this.

Thus, let them argue like this. It is their limited (IMO) worldview which lets them condemn Carl Jung's concept. For people who know a little about mathematics and geometry I can give an example: Such an argumentation is as if someone who knows only Euclidian geometry argues about Non-Euclidian geometry. Such a critizism is of course not worth to be discussed, since is is rooted in too many unconscious prejudices. History will judge these people.

Remo

_________________
'Here stands the mean uncomely stone,
Tis very cheap in price!
The more it is despised by fools,
The more loved by the wise.'
(C.G. Jung, MDR, p. 253)
WebSite: http://www.paulijungunusmundus.eu


Tue Aug 15, 2006 12:37 pm
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Now I will deal with the deeper trouble of Richard Noll's shock about the idea of the deification of the body, the Neoplatonic world view.

Mats Winther wrote in the thread Ego and Archetype:
Quote:
To its adherents, Gnosticism promised a secret knowledge of the divine realm. Sparks or seeds of the Divine Being fell from this transcendent realm into the material universe, which is wholly evil, and were imprisoned in human bodies. Reawakened by knowledge, the divine element in humanity can return to its proper home in the transcendent spiritual realm.


The trouble is that this statement is not at all one about Gnosticism, but about Neoplatonism. Neoplatonism entered Christianity with the Church Father Augustine (who first f*** around and liked his and the "flesh" of others very much, and only then converted to Christianism.) Since this time matter and the feminine are the evil principle per se in Christianity. This is however a horrible prejudice of Neoplatonism. It was also the prejudice of Neoplatonic alchemy, in which the spirit of matter had to be extracted and unified with the spirit in the Christian Heaven or in the Platonic Empyreum.

Of course such a belief cannot at all accept a deification of the body. However, if we look at the alchemy of Gerardus Dorneus, we see that the above procedure is only the first phase, the unio mentalis (which is in fact the Neoplatonic phase). Then however, the soul (psyche) in the Heavens abandons the spirit and meets again with matter, with the dead body. (The body died during the first phase -- and this idea led directly to the prejudice of inanimated matter by science of today).

This is future history of the new century. I quote Marie-Louise von Franz:

Quote:
"[After the unio mentalis] he [Dorneus] goes one step further, a unique step which you find in no [other] mystical text of the Middle Ages: he feels sorry for this body which has been cast out, and says that it cannot simply be thrown into the rubbish heap, but that it too must be redeemed into the inner unification, into the already existing unio mentalis. (Creation Myths, Spring, 1973, p. 240.)


This is what Dorneus calls the unio corporalis. For the observation of this development it is necessary that also the conscious psyche abandons the spirit and unifies with matter, or with the body. This is what I call the Eros ego complementary to the Logos ego.

It is thus obivous that Neoplatonists -- and Richard Noll and all personalistic psychologists seem all to be Neoplatonists -- hate such a procedure like the devil the holy water. However, this is the continuation of Carl Jung's work. As I wrote in the thread about Ego and Archetype I am convinced that Marie-Louise von Franz was forced to begin this work as an effect of her severe disease during the last 13 years of her life.

Remo

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'Here stands the mean uncomely stone,
Tis very cheap in price!
The more it is despised by fools,
The more loved by the wise.'
(C.G. Jung, MDR, p. 253)
WebSite: http://www.paulijungunusmundus.eu


Tue Aug 15, 2006 12:40 pm
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Matt wrote:

Quote:
Wow, Remo! We really are on the same page. I started a new thread on a parallel topic just as you were posting this one.

Faced with the potential overlap, I propose that we use this thread to discuss Noll, Gnosticism/Neoplatonism, and the Jungian shadow and the other one to discuss self-deification and the "sin of consciousness" and how there could be some neurological/evolutionary basis for understanding this (the sin of consciousness came up in the Edinger book thread). I am probably too digressive to hold to this "rule", but if it sounds like a functional distinction, I'll do my best.

Beyond that, I think I am starting to better understand your ideas on the unio corporalis. I have had a few recent dreams (like Ape and Severed Ear) that are pointing the same direction: toward a "rebirth" of the body as a kind of mind-body unity.

More later.

Yours,
Matt

_________________
'Here stands the mean uncomely stone,
Tis very cheap in price!
The more it is despised by fools,
The more loved by the wise.'
(C.G. Jung, MDR, p. 253)
WebSite: http://www.paulijungunusmundus.eu


Tue Aug 15, 2006 12:42 pm
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Cindy [Moderator of Kaleidoscope] wrote:

Quote:
Quote:
Remo Roth, PhD wrote:
...When now Richard Noll is so afraid of this idea, the deification of the body, we should ask why...


Hi, Remo.

I recognize the simplicity of what I'm about to say, nonetheless...

My take on Noll is that, at the core, he likely feels threatened by Jungian ideas because of his own Catholicism, no more, no less. It's easier for him to attack Jung et al. rather than to take an honest look at himself and his probable doubts about his own religious beliefs, those which he has projected onto Jung with a vengeance it seems; perhaps Jung had the courage to do what Noll does not. I admit, however, that I know little about Noll or his works beyond bios and summaries, and this is because having learned what I did, such ideas have no interest for me. I personally can't get riled up about this sort of dispute when it's clear that a meeting of the minds will never come to pass. For me it's like an argument between a fundamentalist and an archaeologist on the meaning of dinosaur bones--pointless. I do, though, find value in the discussion about Neoplatonism and its role in the history of ideas. What I'm really saying, I guess, is that focusing on "Noll the critic" as many do is, well, perhaps a waste of time and perfectly good brain cells. Wink

Ciao!
Cindy

_________________
'Here stands the mean uncomely stone,
Tis very cheap in price!
The more it is despised by fools,
The more loved by the wise.'
(C.G. Jung, MDR, p. 253)
WebSite: http://www.paulijungunusmundus.eu


Tue Aug 15, 2006 12:44 pm
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Matt wrote:

Quote:
Quote:
My take on Noll is that, at the core, he likely feels threatened by Jungian ideas because of his own Catholicism, no more, no less. It's easier for him to attack Jung et al. rather than to take an honest look at himself and his probable doubts about his own religious beliefs, those which he has projected onto Jung with a vengeance it seems; perhaps Jung had the courage to do what Noll does not. I admit, however, that I know little about Noll or his works beyond bios and summaries, and this is because having learned what I did, such ideas have no interest for me. I personally can't get riled up about this sort of dispute when it's clear that a meeting of the minds will never come to pass. For me it's like an argument between a fundamentalist and an archaeologist on the meaning of dinosaur bones--pointless. I do, though, find value in the discussion about Neoplatonism and its role in the history of ideas. What I'm really saying, I guess, is that focusing on "Noll the critic" as many do is, well, perhaps a waste of time and perfectly good brain cells. Wink


I'd like to add to Cindy's comments that Noll may do such a good job of nailing (and obsessing over) the Jungian shadow because Noll himself suffers from the same shadow. Unable to confront it in himself, he projects it onto Jung and the Jungians. Noll is the Grand Inquisitor of the Cult of the Self-Deification Taboo . . . as his inflation/blindness clearly shows.

After all, Noll's books demonstrate a great deal of unconsciousness. They are so violently hostile, and the treatment of Jung and his ideas is overtly skewed to drastically misinterpret both.

Also, Noll makes a very petty and petulant attempt to take Jung down a peg in a non-Jungian context. That is, Noll is banking on appealing to a post-Freudian, academic audience . . . an audience that knows nothing directly about Jung and is likely to already harbor a vague, dismissive prejudice. Jung is not read in academe (not in psychology, sociology, or literature).

These are just a couple examples of why I described Noll's books as the worst scholarship I'd ever encountered. All of his motives are psychological, and none are truly scholarly.

While I agree in a way with Cindy that spending time discussing "Noll the critic" is a waste of time and energy, I do feel that Noll's books are worth reading for the sole fact that they illuminate the Jungian shadow very well. I'm not saying that they "tell the truth" about Jung and Jungians . . . but they do a good job of pinpointing what we are afraid to confront. And, like myths, I think this projection of Noll's arose almost entirely out of the unconscious (and does indeed have collective worth . . . but only to Jungians, not to any field of scholarship).

It would be a waste of time to treat Noll's books like scholarly arguments to be opposed (as this would be to misunderstand them). But the books, I think, are quite valuable as additions to Jungian literature. I would even go so far as to say that one of them should be considered a "must read" for serious Jungians (either one, they're pretty much the same book . . . and there's not much use in reading both).

-Matt

_________________
'Here stands the mean uncomely stone,
Tis very cheap in price!
The more it is despised by fools,
The more loved by the wise.'
(C.G. Jung, MDR, p. 253)
WebSite: http://www.paulijungunusmundus.eu


Tue Aug 15, 2006 12:47 pm
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As an answer to my argument
Quote:
...When now Richard Noll is so afraid of this idea, the deification of the body, we should ask why...


Cindy wrote:
Quote:
Hi, Remo.
I recognize the simplicity of what I'm about to say, nonetheless...
My take on Noll is that, at the core, he likely feels threatened by Jungian ideas because of his own Catholicism, no more, no less.


Cindy

Good morning. It's four o'clock in Switzerland.

It's not simplicity, it's the core of the argument. Catholicism (and Christianity in general) means Neoplatonism and Neoplatonism means the idea that matter, the body and the feminine are evil. Thus, Noll must get very afraid when he reads of a deification of the body (whatever it could be).

This is the fact Christian women (and men) should become conscious of. It is a condemnation of the real feminine principle, of the world soul, of the acausal principle per se, which crisscrosses the nice causal world of all these Neoplatonic men. It is the counter-will Jung described in Symbols of Transformation (which he wrote shortly before his breakdown).

Quote:
It's easier for him to attack Jung et al. rather than to take an honest look at himself and his probable doubts about his own religious beliefs, those which he has projected onto Jung with a vengeance it seems; perhaps Jung had the courage to do what Noll does not.


Yes, this is also my feeling when I read his books.
Quote:
I do, though, find value in the discussion about Neoplatonism and its role in the history of ideas. What I'm really saying, I guess, is that focusing on "Noll the critic" as many do is, well, perhaps a waste of time and perfectly good brain cells. Wink


This is in fact the real question. The trouble is that also Jung is partly (or mostly?) Neoplatonic (for example in the chapter The spirit in matter in Psychology and Alchemy. Also science is Neoplatonic, since it developed out of the Neoplatonic part of alchemy. In the Renaissance Neoplatonic and Hermetic alchemy lived yet both together in the soul of these alchemists. But then the latter was cut off, since mathematics entered science. The magic of Hermetic alchemy is however not describable with the help of mathematics, since one cannot quantify its energetic aspect.

But then, in 1945, with Hitler (or as a weapon against him) Hermetic alchemy came back with the atomic bomb. Though the atomic bomb is a direct product of the Neoplatonic idea -- Out of evil matter we must extract the good energy -- there is a club foot connected with it (and with the nuclear plants): This damn radioactive fallout (bomb) and contamination (nuclear plants). There the collective shadow of this Neoplatonic attitude, Hermetic alchemy in its black magic form, comes back.

I guess further that many (or shall I say most?) Jungians are also Neoplatonists. Thus they project on Noll the critizism on Jung they do not accept in themselves. The only solution is the empirical approach: To have a look where Carl Jung is Neoplatonic, and where he is not. The contrast to Neoplatonism is Hermetics. This is why the Hermetic opus of Gerardus Dorneus is the best we can read about this subject. We see that his first phase, the unio mentalis, the liberation of the psyche from matter and its union with the spirit in Heaven (or in the Platonian Empyreum) is the Neoplatonic step. It is the "ancestor" of science, and also of a great part of Carl Jung's depth psychology.

The second phase is however the Hermetic opus, in which the psyche abandons the spirit in the Heavens and returns to the dead body. There they unify and build something very new. I call it the matter-psyche aspect of reality (as a complement to the spirit-psyche; the latter the mens or unio mentalis created in the first, the Neoplatonic step). On the conscious level this is in fact a novel consciousness, what we call today the altered consciousness [what people unconsciously look for when they take drugs like heroine and marihuana, and especially LSD (Stan Grof!)]. Carl Jung calls it an "abaissement du niveau mental," a slackening of the tensity of consciousness, but it is not a slackening, it is a different consciousness.

With the help of this procedure, looked for but not found by Carl Jung as well as by Wolfgang Pauli, one is able to melt with the feminine part of the "unconscious," with the Goddess. Since it seems that such a procedure is only possible after deepest humilations or severe disease, the danger of an inflation is relatively small in this second phase of the opus. One needs however a lot of courage to let oneself fall into these depths.

Remo

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'Here stands the mean uncomely stone,
Tis very cheap in price!
The more it is despised by fools,
The more loved by the wise.'
(C.G. Jung, MDR, p. 253)
WebSite: http://www.paulijungunusmundus.eu


Tue Aug 15, 2006 12:50 pm
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Hermes (Torsten) wrote:
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Hi Remo,

personally, I would not make such a fuss about the difference between Neoplatonic and Hermetic alchemy/worldview. First of all, it is of course good to have such conscious categories to be able to consciously spell out where differences in the world-view are. However, in the natural process of development I believe that the unio corporalis, by it´s very structure, will tend to a neo-plantonic world-view. The body has to be left out of the picture because things are settled in the spirit-soul aspect. It is like solving a complex equation first in two dimensions, and once one has understood the solution there, can generalize to three dimensions (mind body soul). Many Jungian people are currently working on the two-dimensional equation, and only if they have "solved" this psychological task, have established a connection to what Remo would call "Logos Self", they may move on. In fact, nature itself will move them on, perhaps not immedeatly, but step by step.

I think that the development into a Hermetic world-view is something which will come naturally if one moves to the stage of the unio corporalis. And it is nature and natural psychological development which will move us there. And once a certain unio corporalis has been reached, at least from my personal individuation process I can say that I do not feel sorry for the time during the unio mentalis, but that it was a necessary step of the development which is now over.

A point where of course we may differ is that I personally do not feel that the mind has to be left out completely for the unio corporalis. At least something like this seems to be taking place with me in actual processes, that my mind is happy as ever, AND the body is becoming "deified". There is already a "sacrificium intellectual" when the Ego during the first stages of encountering the shadow recognizes that "it is not master in it´s own house". However, in the later stages, in my individuation process, the thinking function has become one of four, something not to be considered the only ruler, but also not being discarded completely.

I also would like to illustrate how the "deificiation of the body" in my eyes can take place. First of all, there are certainly millions of people with which this practically happens currently, the Light Workers all over the planet. They all experience very practically the unio corporalis and develop further every day. But the point is that they do not or rarely originate from a Jungian origin, but from an esoterical one. Contemporary esoterics in many respects are further in discribing the unio corporalis than any Jungian is, because they experience it first hand. They also in my eyes may lack certain useful tools from the unio mentalis, knowing about their shadow, what projection is etc.. This would legitimate the stage of the unio mentalis, that it gives people tools of self-awareness which otherwise may be lacking, or need to be installed costly later on, when people already are in the stage of the deification of the body.

The means to understand the unio corporalis, as I do, is to be attuned to Reiki, also the higher Reiki degrees, and experience the subtle energy flow directly and practically in one´s energy body. Sooner or later, one will get a feeling for the aura, an intuitive grasp of the subtle body, and will learn to also heal on this level. There are books which show how deeply esoterics and Reiki practitioners have already understood the "deification of the body":

Barbara Brennan: :Lichtarbeit
Tachira Tachi-Ren: Der Lichtkörperprozeß / The light-body process
Diana Cooper: Dein Weg ins Licht / A new light on ascension

Millions of people all-over the planet can practically speak of this processes taking place, the so-called Light workers(German: Lichtarbeiter). Here nature is faster than Jungian theories. I think it is quite interesting to keep this in mind when speaking of the unio corporalis. It is the development of the light-body, the formation of the Merkabah, the ascension vessel, which in multiple times is taking place everywhere now.

Good luck
Hermes

_________________
'Here stands the mean uncomely stone,
Tis very cheap in price!
The more it is despised by fools,
The more loved by the wise.'
(C.G. Jung, MDR, p. 253)
WebSite: http://www.paulijungunusmundus.eu


Tue Aug 15, 2006 12:53 pm
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[My answer:]

Torsten wrote

Quote:
Hi Remo, personally, I would not make such a fuss about the difference between Neoplatonic and Hermetic alchemy/worldview.


It was the "conscience of physics" Wolfgang Pauli who made this "fuss" first. I guess after almost 400 years of Neoplatonic science and its arrogance it is important to see the difference to Hermetic alchemy (and future science).

Quote:
First of all, it is of course good to have such conscious categories to be able to consciously spell out where differences in the world-view are. However, in the natural process of development I believe that the unio corporalis, by it´s very structure, will tend to a neo-plantonic world-view. The body has to be left out of the picture because things are settled in the spirit-soul aspect. It is like solving a complex equation first in two dimensions, and once one has understood the solution there, can generalize to three dimensions (mind body soul). Many Jungian people are currently working on the two-dimensional equation, and only if they have "solved" this psychological task, have established a connection to what Remo would call "Logos Self", they may move on. In fact, nature itself will move them on, perhaps not immedeatly, but step by step.


I do not agree here. The unio corporalis, the re-integration of the body, is qualitatively completely different from the unio mentalis. In your example above there is no qualitative difference.

Because of this qualitative difference, I had to define a different concept to Carl Jung's Active Imagination, what I call Body-Centered Imagination. A.I. is based on a discrimination of the ego from the unconscious, an it happens mostly verbally. It is an "Auseinandersetzung" -- there exists no English word for this term. It means literally that one sits apart, and only like this one can see one's own and the other's stanpoint clearly. BCI is however a melting with the feminine part of the Self, with the world soul. It is not verbal. In it one stops thinking consciously and experiences like this what I call the introverted corporeal sensation based on the vegetative (sympathetic/parasympathetic) nervous system. The introverted corporeal sensation is not identical with Jung's introverted sensation function, since the latter is also based on the sensory functions which are themselves based on the Central Nervous System.

Quote:
A point where of course we may differ is that I personally do not feel that the mind has to be left out completely for the unio corporalis. At least something like this seems to be taking place with me in actual processes, that my mind is happy as ever, AND the body is becoming "deified". There is already a "sacrificium intellectual" when the Ego during the first stages of encountering the shadow recognizes that "it is not master in it´s own house". However, in the later stages, in my individuation process, the thinking function has become one of four, something not to be considered the only ruler, but also not being discarded completely.


I only postulate that during the process of BCI thinking has to be abandoned. Only like this these intensely corporeally experienced images can come up. But perhaps I am speaking here of processes which are very normal for feeling/intuition types, and more difficult to grasp for thinking types.

Remo

_________________
'Here stands the mean uncomely stone,
Tis very cheap in price!
The more it is despised by fools,
The more loved by the wise.'
(C.G. Jung, MDR, p. 253)
WebSite: http://www.paulijungunusmundus.eu


Tue Aug 15, 2006 12:55 pm
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[Torsten wrote:]

Quote:
Quote Remo:

BCI is however a melting with the feminine part of the Self, with the world soul. It is not verbal. In it one stops thinking consciously and experiences like this what I call the introverted corporeal sensation based on the vegetative

Hermes/Torsten: I would like to clarify here. During the process of BCI/being in Yin consciousness/being "feeling soul"(fühlende Seele) one does not think. One FEELS, and it is a kind of expansion of one´s being, one feels connected with everything, everything is in flow etc.. A type of meditation which may induce BCI/being "feeling soul" as I would term it could be:

Relax. Imagine energy streaming from above or below into your aura. The energy can come from everywhere, cleanses the aura, makes it shine in all colors. Be the flowing energy. Put all thoughts aside. Be feeling soul. Soon, consciousness expands. It is no longer bound by objects, thoughts, it is streaming ... etc..

BCI or Yin consciousness hence would be one of the two states of being, Yin and Yang consciousness, the latter being ordinary, academic thought as we know it for example. In the process of cleansing and adjusting the light body, I think that both stages of Yin and Yang consciousness will appear, especially in my individuation process of which I can talk. If one stays in Yin consciousness/ a kind of receptive and observative state, it can be rather sucidal to cross streets or drive a car. For that one needs Yang consciousness.

When I give myself Reiki, I get into a mild state of Yin consciousness, but one can also get back to Yang consciousness when a more active and thinking approach is needed. So for me, this is rather a pendulum between two states.

This is just a discription how I experience the whole matter. If we should not agree on this point, this just is fine aswell. Everyone has to make one´s own experiences, and life will deliver them to each one.

Good luck
Hermes

_________________
'Here stands the mean uncomely stone,
Tis very cheap in price!
The more it is despised by fools,
The more loved by the wise.'
(C.G. Jung, MDR, p. 253)
WebSite: http://www.paulijungunusmundus.eu


Tue Aug 15, 2006 12:57 pm
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Post 
Cindy wrote:
Quote:
Remo Roth, PhD wrote:
...I only postulate that during the process of BCI thinking has to be abandoned. Only like this these intensely corporeally experienced images can come up. But perhaps I am speaking here of processes which are very normal for feeling/intuition types, and more difficult to grasp for thinking types.


I would offer, too, Remo, that for some of us women who are feeling/intuitive types, the state achieved during what you call BCI is the natural state of being...and not particularly adaptive when driving, for instance. Wink Seriously, though, I think that developmentally, Mother Nature has given us women an edge when it comes to the potential integration of logos and eros.

Cindy

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'Here stands the mean uncomely stone,
Tis very cheap in price!
The more it is despised by fools,
The more loved by the wise.'
(C.G. Jung, MDR, p. 253)
WebSite: http://www.paulijungunusmundus.eu


Tue Aug 15, 2006 1:00 pm
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Cindy

I'm stressing these altered states of consciousness in a forum that deals with Jung's theory, since they are mostly qualified as "hysteric," and like this as some sort of a mental disease. Also Carl Jung committed this fault when he diagnosed in his dissertation in 1902 his cousin Helly (Helene) Preiswerk as a somnambule hysteric (and then fell in love with her...). It is said that he himself was in this way hysteric (Paul Stern). Jung described this "faintness neurosis" (his diagnosis) and its "cure" in MDR. By mere will he tried to "cure" these states of altered consciousness. In the Burghölzli, during the years 1900 to 1909, he was incredibly will-possessed. Then, in 1913 the end of this onesided Logos ego came -- his breakdown, called the "night sea journey."

In her somnambulic states Helly was able to have a relationship with the deceased. Carl Jung, as a result of his Neoplatonic medical education and the study of Sigmund Freuds theory, "transformed" these states into a possession by (evil) instinctive complexes. Then however, in 1916, the deceased came back and he had to write Septem Sermones ad Mortuos, The Seven Sermons to the Dead. Only then the ghosts were satisfied, and the parapsychological poltergeist phenomena ended.

The Seven Sermons show the original Jung -- the Gnostic Jung, as Stephan A. Hoeller defines him in his book with the same title. This Jung is still buried behind the Neoplatonic literature about him. Alchemically seen, the "Gnostic Jung" is what Gerardus Dorneus' unio corporalis tried to explain. Jung however interpreted this second, Hermetic phase not as the observation of the transformation of the body into the subtle body for the life in the Beyond, but in a Neoplatonic way as an em-body-ment of the unio corporalis into life.

There we have thus to begin at the beginning of the 21st century. As I wrote above, Marie-Louise von Franz began as a result of her severe disease this work during the last 13 years of her life.

Remo

_________________
'Here stands the mean uncomely stone,
Tis very cheap in price!
The more it is despised by fools,
The more loved by the wise.'
(C.G. Jung, MDR, p. 253)
WebSite: http://www.paulijungunusmundus.eu


Tue Aug 15, 2006 1:01 pm
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Post Interpretation of the M.s Dream of the Ape and the Dog's Ear
Hi Matt

Instead of giving you an answer to your evolutionary psychology/neurobiology part, I, the fool, would like to interpret your dream in http://kaleidoscope-forum.org/talk/viewtopic.php?t=372 .

I will do this with the help of my "bias", ie I will assume 1) that the dream speaks of the challenge of the puer after he has come down to earth and lives the life of a "normal" human (as MLvF describes it in her book). I do this since your intuition tells you that the dream has something to do with the discussion of the puer in another thread. This challenge after the integration of the "extraverted puer" is the observation of the development of the "inner puer," of the subtle body, or more profane: of the relationship with what I call the introverted corporeal sensation function. 2) My experience has shown that house dreams -- especially also all these house dreams of Wolfgang Pauli, but also of many patients and mine -- talk about the body.

I'm so glad that you understand that one has first to associate, and not to "reflect" about a dream which is nothing else than thinking about it. With thinking about a dream one will never get its real meaning, but only augment the prejudices one has about the dream. In contrast to such a behaviour, the associations are some sort of "quantum leaps" we can produce, and only like this we get a creative interpretation. Only the latter gives us a really new perspective.

Quote:
I was moving through rooms/floors of my parents' house. Various people were about. Holly (close friend and neighbor going to Law School) was there, but she was off alone studying/reading law books. Holly had brought a large ape with her that was roaming around by itself.


The house is your body. It has to do with the house of your parents, which means that they were not able to give you an orientation how and when you should be in which floor ("moving around"). Further, there is Holly, the student of laws. “Laws” means extremely logical thinking (this is why in Switzerland and Germany they look first at the qualifications you have in mathematics and in Latin. If they are good, they accept you since they know that you will become a good lawyer.)

This extremely logical thinking is a little isolated in your body :lol: This is why she/it brings a large ape with it/her -- the compensation. So far the anamnesis.

Quote:
It seemed to me that the ape was getting into more and more mischief, roaming farther away, eventually into the back yard. From an upper floor back window, I saw the ape grab Marley5 (our dog) by the (right) ear6 and drag her across the yard and down the wooded hill. Marley had gone limp and was being dragged lying down on her side. She looked kind of frazzled and scared, but didn't resist at all. I ran downstairs and outside as fast as I could to help/save her.


The ape I interpret as the non-intellect, the black shadow of the thinking function, the complete opposite, the deeply instinctive aspect of your body, so deeply unconscious that one cannot really have a relationship with it.

For the relationship with this aspect of the body we need the dog. The dog (in your case a female) is in contrast to the ape the instinctual part in you with which you can have a relationship (dog/man relationship you know very well when you have a dog).

Now however the ape goes wilder and wilder, more and more unconscious (back yard), a dangerous situation. From the upper floor, ie with your intuitive ego, you anticipate that something goes wrong in your body. You realize first that the dog is limping. As a good atheist Very Happy you know that the Catholic devil is limping. The devil is acausality, is the one who always crisscrosses our logical and causal plan of life. Thus, the ape, the instinctive “preconscious knowledge” in you, which is however beyond any ability of your ego to become conscious of, activates the "devil" of acausality. This can mean that you experience more synchronicities than usual, and mostly it means that these synchronicities could be destructive (Yes, also negative synchronicities exist).

Thus you decide to get a relationship with the limping dog - the "devil" of acausality hidden in the instinctive sphere (the one of whom you are able to become conscious about). This is the first good news in your dream.

Quote:
At the bottom of the hill, the ape was standing next to Marley, whose ear had been ripped off at the base of her head. She wasn't yelping or anything, but she still looked worried. I picked up the ear (either from the ground or I took it from the ape), put my arm around Marley's neck and rushed her back to the house (1st floor living room).


However, the ape (interpretation see above) has already ripped off the ear of the dog (interpr. of dog see above). The ear is of course the listening organ. "To rip off" means to separate. To separate means to become conscious. [The dog is the whole instinctive side which you can however not become conscious of as a whole; thus you should begin with the ear (see also below)], ie to listen to the "dog". This means that your challenge, the next step of the integration of the puer, is to become conscious of the voice of the "dog" (as an intuitive this is one of your greatest problems).

Quote:
My wife was there and I asked her whether she thought we should go to Marley's usually vet or the emergency animal hospital. She felt that the usual vet was definitely better8. As we were leaving, I worried that the vet may be closed by the time we got there. I believe it was "4:40 PM"9.


I will not interpret this part, since it could have to do with your relationship with your wife. I guess it is not the best thing to interpret such a part of the dream in public. However, to 4:40 you associate the night sea journey. Thus, it is obvious that the night sea journey in relation to your body is constellated.

Quote:
When we arrived at the vet, they were open and even bustling. We were ushered through a few different rooms (I have the vague feeling that the progression of rooms was like a circuit/circle around which we moved counter clockwise). In one room I saw Cam10 (a colleague) talking to an employee behind a reception desk, and on the other side of the room, Frank11 (childhood friend and next door neighbor) was sitting at a desk talking to or waiting for another employee. He looked sad.


The vet is still open, ie it is not too late for the procedure. This is the second good news. Again the different rooms come in, and also here I would interpret them as different aspects of your body, here the "dog body." Here something can happen, which can lead you deeply into the realms I call the "corporeal Self" or the Eros Self. [Don't worry if you do not understand what this means, you will observe and experience it.] Cam, the man who engages in animal rescue (!) is with you. You can interpret this aspect now yourself, I guess. But also Frank, the man who has something to do with cancer (the animal cancer always goes backwards; I have worked with people with cancer. If they had found the way to "walk like a cancer", ie backwards, to go consciously down into their body and especially into their belly, they were able to stop the disease). Frank has lost his German Shepherd, ie has lost the connection to his instinctivity. This shows also some danger if you do not find a method to reunite with the instincts as described above (and below).

Quote:
I went through a door with Marley (my wife stayed behind) and entered a largish room with various pieces of cluttered medical equipment and small (pet sized) operating tables. Various doctors and nurses about. I was ushered to one little cluttered nook with an operating table. I felt cramped.

I heard one vet saying that whether or not Marley's ear could be reattached depended on how many nerves were severed. I backed up against a tall shelf or machine with a medical monitor on top of it. The side that I backed up against was covered with a large sheet of very rough sandpaper. I awoke.


You are now in a third room. Three is the symbol of “energy.” Thus, and energetic process is constellated which has to do with the inner corporeal sensation (rooted in the vegetative nervous system and not in the central ns.)

And now the surgery, the “opus contra naturam,” the unio corporalis can begin. A surgeon works with his hands (this is why internists say that they do not have a brain :lol: ) . Thus we have here two clues how you should go on concretely: First with the hands and second with the ears (or vice versa). We have a further clue, the sandpaper. I would now do BCI with the sandpaper. Take some very rough sandpaper and try to listen to the sound. Further try to sensate the sensations you have when you treat your body with sandpaper. I am sure that your intuition/introverted corporeal sensation will give you further informations. Try for example to express the sensations with the sentence that begins with "It is as if..." Try further to really sensate/feel/realize the effects of the sandpaper in your body, and especially in your belly. Try to tell the body it should give you an image how this strange sensation of the sandpaper on the skin is like. Since Michael Gershon, The Second Brain we know that the so-called enteric nervous system (a part of the vegetative ns, enclosing the guts (!) contains thousand times (or a million times; not sure anymore) more neurons than the brain [and here modern neuroscience begins!]. This is why he (and also I) calls it also the belly brain or the gut brain.

Good luck!

Remo

_________________
'Here stands the mean uncomely stone,
Tis very cheap in price!
The more it is despised by fools,
The more loved by the wise.'
(C.G. Jung, MDR, p. 253)
WebSite: http://www.paulijungunusmundus.eu


Tue Aug 15, 2006 1:06 pm
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Post Carl Jung's Historical Background I
Back to Noll. I'd like to give here some short remarks about his books, since they show (of course in his onesided view) the tension between the Neoplatonic and the Hermetic worldview in Carl Jung, which will however also be the deeply archetypal conflict of the beginning 21st century.

In the first part of his second book The Jung Cult, (1997), in the first five chapters, Noll describes Carl Jung's historical background. As much as I know, this is the first time that a historian of psychiatry and psychotherapy does this. For me this was some sort of a little enlightenment. Since then I realized how important it is to regard Carl Jung's depth psychology on his individual background (as Sigmund Freud's on his Jewish). What Jung called later "the personal equation" is rooted here, and everyone who tries to deal with Jung has now to bear in mind these limitations. Only like this we can eventually get a complete (and not a mystified) view of his personal and professional life and work.

In the introduction Noll also gives a short overview of the development of Carl Jung's theory, which seems to me to be very important, since most people only know the final theory and do not know too much about the process of its formation. These phases are:

1. the complex theory (1902)
2. the theory of the psychological types (1913, 1921)
3. what Noll calls the vitalistic theory of a primarily biologically based phylogenetic unconscious (1909, revised 1916)
4. the theory of the collective unconscious (1916)
5. the theory of dominants (1917) or archetypes (1919) of the collective unconscious
6. the principle of individuation (1916)

I would add a first phase, Carl Jung's occupation with occultism and his somnambulistic experiences with Helly from 1895 to 1899. Further his dissertation of 1902, in which he disclaims under the influence of Freud's materialistic/positivistic theory all his experiences with Helly and "transforms" the experience of the presence of the deceased into complexes of Freud's subconscious (the personal unconscious in Jung's terminology). This phase is important since it is the first breaking in Carl Jung's development: The occultist transforms into a rational materialistic psychiatrist, the spirit seer becomes a personalistic psychologist.

With the sentence
Quote:
Understanding the history of ideas at play in the nineteenth cnetury is a key to understanding the historical Jung. (p. 13)

in the first chapter Richard Noll complains of the fact -- IMO rightly -- that MDR is mostly the only source for all biographers, and that there are no historical facts about Carl Jung besides the ones he gives himself in it. Noll concludes
Quote:
Thus, with MDR we do not have the human history of a renowned physician and scientist, but instead the myth of a divine hereo, a holy man, a saint, a life produced directly by essentially a religious community, and therefore a biography as 'cult legend'." (p. 15)

Of course, Noll exaggerates, but the core of this statement is true. We do not know Carl Jung, the human.

Noll gives then a short overview of Carl Jung's ancestors and shows that his maternal side is full of spiritualists with clairvoyant abilities (for example this mother and his grandfather Samuel Preiswerk; see also http://www.psychovision.ch/hknw/holy_we ... 3_e.htm#53 ). Further Noll shows that Jung’s paternal line is German (and not Swiss). Here also the story of his paternal grandfather being an illegitimate childe of Goethe comes in. This aspect is insofar important as later Sabina Spielrein would also like to have an illegitimate child of Carl ... I hope I can show in the continuation of my ms. The Holy Wedding that this illegitimate child is an archetype deeply rooted in Jung's personality, and that the first vision of his breakdown of 1913, the Siegfried vision is connected to all this [since Siegfried is also the fatherless child and like this in some way (in an archaic culture) also illegitimate].

A second important aspect of Jung's background is his being part of an elite. Though he talks of him himself as the son of a pour pastor, this is not at all the case. "The presbytery (Pfarrhaus) had been called 'one of the germinal cells of German culture'." Thus the pastors "served as the Protestant 'old nobility,' a bulwark against barbarism, paganism, occultism" and Roman Catholizism. Here we see the first incredible tension in Carl Jung's soul: On the one hand this Protestant ambiance tending to rationalism/positivism, on the other the occult heredity, represented in his dramatical childhood dream of the phallus in the grave. Suffering at this split was the fate of Carl Jung's first half of life (which ended with the breakdown, called "the night sea journey."

The third historical influence on Carl Jung -- mostly not too much realized in English speaking countries -- was the dominance of classical Greco-Roman culture in Germany and Switzerland in those days. This foreign culture (the emphasis of which helped of course to repress the original Germanic and Celtic roots in Europe) was the big influence of Goethe, and later, and most important, of the German Romanticism. Noll concludes:
Quote:
Focusing on heredity and its consequences in the nineteenth century served as a scientific form of fantasizing about the dead and their influence on the present.

Further one should add that in the bourgeois class of those times the main concern was especially an assumed hereditary degeneration showing in occultism, spirititualism, "hysteric" behaviour (Helly Preiswerk), etc. (RFR: which was however a compensation to the loss of the instinctive roots in this class). As we know, Carl Jung began his professional life exactly with the spiritist seances with Helly, pathologized her however later, in his dissertation of 1902, as a somnabulic hysteria (see http://www.psychovision.ch/hknw/holy_we ... 5p12_e.htm ) This leads us directly to the problem of the tension between a Neoplatonic and a Hermetic worldview, which was Carl Jung's deepest problem of his life.

Remo

_________________
'Here stands the mean uncomely stone,
Tis very cheap in price!
The more it is despised by fools,
The more loved by the wise.'
(C.G. Jung, MDR, p. 253)
WebSite: http://www.paulijungunusmundus.eu


Last edited by Remo Roth on Sat Mar 19, 2011 7:50 am, edited 1 time in total.



Tue Aug 15, 2006 1:11 pm
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Post Carl Jung's Neoplatonic conversion in the Burghölzli
I'd like to go on with my argument, which postulates that Carl Jung's deepest fate was an incredibly deep unconscious tension between the Neoplatonic and the Hermetic worldview. This will lead back to the statements of Cindy and Matt about evolutionary biology.

When Carl Jung entered the Burghölzli, the psychiatric clinic of the Zurich University, and especially when he began to study Sigmund Freud's Traumdeutung (The Interpretation of Dreams), he became a very rational/materialistic psychiatrist. His Neoplatonic worldview shows in the fact that with the help of the association test, invented by Wilhelm Wundt, he showed first that parts of Freud's theory [In short: In the "subconscious" there are elements, which influence unconsciously the ego, so impressively demonstrated with hysteric people by Freud] are right, and second that one can group these elements around so-called "gefühlsbetonte Komplexe" (later "emotionale Komplexe"; emotional complexes). Thus he proved empirically that in what Freud called the subconscious there exist in fact elements which can unconsciously influence the ego.

As Noll states, this empirical proof is Carl Jung's great contribution to psychiatry. Noll condemns however Jung's later extension of the theory of complexes to the theory of archetypes, since he believes that this is not empirical research anymore. Like this the historian bases his argument on the (conscious or unconscious) prejudice that empirical science must have to do with mathematical measurability (the complex characteristics of the association test are measurable) -- exactly the prejudice that led during the 17th century to Neoplatonic science (Galilei, Kepler, Newton).

And here the trouble with Noll and all the other (Freudian, natural scientific) critics begins. As I stated above, they all are "Euclidian geometrists" who criticize "Non-Euclidian geometry" (the extension of the former) with the help of their limited means. The latter was developed out of the former, since one had seen that the so-called parallel's postulate, a fundament of Euclidian geometry, is not necessary. In the same way one can argue that mathematical measurability is not a necessary means for doing empirical science. This latter argument is the most important in my argumentation, insofar as I state that we have other means for the "measuring" -- more exactly for the observation -- of inner psychic and corporeal phenomena, the introverted corporeal sensation and the introverted feeling function [repressed by natural science as well as by the human sciencies (psychology, for example).]

Back to Carl Jung. Psychoanalysis and also Jung's association test are deeply rooted in the Neoplatonic worldview. The central idea of them is obivous: The unconscious negative complexes belong to the instinctive sphere and thus to matter. Their unconscious influencing of the consciousness shows that they are evil, and thus also matter is evil. Pure spirit, however -- the realm of the Platonists, Neoplatonists and Christians -- does of course not have the least to do with the malice of these inferior drives. Thus the energy in the drives, in the instinctive sphere of man, must be liberated and transformed into the (Logos) consciousness. Like this the evil energy of matter transforms into the good energy ("insight," becoming conscious) of the ego.

In the crazy house Carl Jung became therefore a pure Neoplatonist!

According to my hypothesis the revolutionary depth psychologist was however also deeply stamped by the Hermetic archetype. Thus, if one bases one's worldview in empirical science (in the more comprehensive meaning I described above; I'll come back to it later), one should be able to show that this archetype rumbled around in Carl Jung's unconscious. To show this, I have first shortly to recapitulate what Hermetics, and especially what Hermetic alchemy is.

This I'll do in the next post.

Remo

_________________
'Here stands the mean uncomely stone,
Tis very cheap in price!
The more it is despised by fools,
The more loved by the wise.'
(C.G. Jung, MDR, p. 253)
WebSite: http://www.paulijungunusmundus.eu


Tue Aug 15, 2006 1:12 pm
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Post Hermetic alchemy, the intermediary realm, the Eros ego
As I showed in http://www.psychovision.ch/synw/platinf ... carnp1.htm as well as in http://www.psychovision.ch/hknw/holy_we ... ntents.htm Hermetic alchemy is very different to Neoplatonic alchemy, a fact which Wolfgang Pauli has first seen. In terms of Gerardus Dorneus opus the former is the second phase, the unio corporalis, after the first, the unio mentalis. As I have mentioned above, the first phase is the liberation or extraction of the psyche out of matter and its union with the spirit in Heaven. In modern terms this Neoplatonic aspect of the opus is the extraction of the psyche out of the unconscious (of the instincts, thus of corporeal matter). Like this the psyche is able to unify with the spirit to what I call the spirit-psyche or the Logos ego.

Then, however, the second phase, the Hermetic aspect of the opus should follow. In the unconscious case this is what Marie-Louise von Franz calls the fall of the puer. The idealistic puer becomes cynic, etc. -- he/she transforms into the negative aspect of the senex. How one can prevent this negative development she describes in her book about the puer.

However, this is not enough. I'm postulating that in a third phase the puer should also transform his consciousness. This I call the transformation of the Logos ego into the Eros ego. I described this process in different contributions in this forum and also in the UNUS MUNDUS forum with the help of Carl Jung's typology (enhanced by the inner corporeal sensation; see the end of my interpretation of Matt's dream above).

The archetypal template of such a process is the Hermetic alchemical Holy Wedding, also called the second coniunctio, which is equivalent to the above unio corporalis. The alchemical (ie archetypal or even psychophysical) dimension of this process is described in the death of the king and its entrance into the womb of the queen. There he dissolves (!), but his atoms become the seed or the sperm of the queen. Out of it the new, the young king is born. In some way such a young king is "fatherless," since his father died before his birth. As I mentioned above, in archaic cultures such a boy would also be an illegitimate child. Thus we are back to the archetype, which was according to my hypothesis so intensely constellated in Carl Jung.

The connection with the conscious process of the ego transformation comes in with the following fact: The union of the king and the queen happens neither in the Heavens nor on earth. This unio corporalis, so marvellously described in the Rosarium philosophorum, happens in an intermediary realm between or even beyond the two. It is the realm of the so-called subtle body. The subtle body is the corporeal aspect of the world soul. This is why the microcosmic aspect mirrors the macrocosmic, et vice versa. Such processes can therefore be experienced in one's inside as well as in the outside. The latter is the case in UFO/"ET" encounter and abduction.

The necessary precondition for the experience of such processes in the intermediary realm is the transformation of the Logos ego into the Eros ego, since only the latter is able to observe this realm.

Symbolically seen, we can replace the sperm by the penis (condensation tendency of the unconscious). Like this we get the archetypal motif of the phallus in the womb of the queen. This is however exactly the motif of Carl Jung’s early childhood dream of the phallus in the grave (see http://www.psychovision.ch/hknw/holy_we ... h5p2_e.htm ).

Therefore, in a surprising manner we come back to the depth psychologist’s Hermetic aspect, compensating his Neoplatonic side he developed and lived during his time in the Burghölzli (1900-1909).

Remo

_________________
'Here stands the mean uncomely stone,
Tis very cheap in price!
The more it is despised by fools,
The more loved by the wise.'
(C.G. Jung, MDR, p. 253)
WebSite: http://www.paulijungunusmundus.eu


Tue Aug 15, 2006 1:13 pm
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Post Hermetic alchemy and Sabinas Illegitimate Child Siegfried
Hermetic alchemy and a Hermetic worldview in general consist of the following contents:

1) The (second) coniunctio or unio corporalis, symbolically represented in the union of the dead king with the queen in her womb. The sperm of the dead king becomes the phallus of the queen, out of which she produces the new king. Since the old king dies before the procreation and birth of the young, the latter is some sort of an illegitimate child.

2) This process produces or happens in an intermediate realm between Heaven and earth, spirit and matter, in a subtle realm, in the unus mundus (Dorneus/Jung) or in the psychophysical reality (W. Pauli).

3) In contrast to Neoplatonic alchemy, in which the background of the process is the Trinity [“Trinitarian thinking” of science (W. Pauli)], enhanced by Jung to the quaternity (of the Self), the Hermetic alchemical background is the Seal of Solomon, the so-called Jewish star, which is however not at all of Jewish origin (see http://www.psychovision.ch/synw/gslectu ... _e_p1a.htm for this argument).

4) In my interpretation the Hermetic process happening in the intermediate realm can only be observed by a transformed ego, which is some sort of an intermediary world as well. I call it the Eros ego. The latter represses thinking consciously during the process of the observation of the incarnation events in the intermediary realm.

With these structural elements and processes of the Hermetic opus we can now have a look at what happened to Carl Jung during the years 1906 to 1909. He projects the Holy Wedding, the unio corporalis onto a young Russian Jewish patient, Sabina Spielrein. Since she is a Jew he, as a man, projects the necessary structure -- men like to have structures! -- of the Hermetic opus, the Seal of Solomon ("Jewish" star), onto her (as he did already four years ago, in 1902, when he fell in love with his cousin Helly with her Jewish “ancestor” Ivenes (see http://www.psychovision.ch/hknw/holy_we ... 5_e.htm#55 ). We see this incredibly deep projection in his so-called "star complex", which shows in his own association tests of 1906. Sabina, as a woman, however projects Siegfried, the illegitimate child, on her psychiatrist, and assails him with her wish for a child fathered by him. Further, as we know, she is completely possessed by the figure of Siegfried.

Both fall in love to each other and do what Sabina described as their "poetry." We do not know, if this was also having sex, it seems however, as much as we can believe in Zvi Lothane's testimony, that this was not the case (and is it really important?)

However, how also a further detail shows, Jung was completely possessed of this archetype of the dying king in the womb of the queen and the illegitimate child. When finally (after two girls) his son Franz was born at the beginning of Dec 1908 – Jung was in the midst of his deep struggle with Sabina and the illegitimate child she liked him to father – he wrote as a comment to this birth to Sigmund Freud: “My father begot me and died.” This quote is from – Richard Wagner’s Siegfried [Kerr, A Most Dangerous Method, p. 204].

[Correction: I just see that this quote is not entirely correct. Jung wrote: "Now that I have a son I can depart in peace." It was Freud who answered with the above quote. Since Freud visited Jung and his pregnant wife just before the birth, and both knew Wagner's Siegfried, it is obvious that both talked exactly of this concern.]

In 1909 Carl Jung breaks with Sabina, and she is sacrificed on the "altar of psychoanalysis." (One can read all the details in several books about this story.) Like this Jung splits however off the real problem, the Hermetic worldview constellated in him as a compensation to the completely Neoplatonic he lived in the Burghölzli. Like this he was however not able to develop what I call today the Eros consciousness.

See also http://www.psychovision.ch/hknw/holy_we ... _e.htm#593

Remo

_________________
'Here stands the mean uncomely stone,
Tis very cheap in price!
The more it is despised by fools,
The more loved by the wise.'
(C.G. Jung, MDR, p. 253)
WebSite: http://www.paulijungunusmundus.eu


Tue Aug 15, 2006 1:14 pm
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Post The unio corporalis in (more or less) common terms
I guess that what I'm writing here must be a horror for someone who does not know too much of Carl Jung's depth psychology, and especially of alchemy. Therefore I'll try to translate all this into a language of "normal people":

1) The first aspect of the Hermetic process (see above) is the death of the king and his entrance into the womb of the queen. A Neoplatonic worldview, completely horrified of such a death of the Logos, interprets this event of course as the devouring death mother. He/she tries to avoid such an assumed catastrophe by even more Neoplatonic liberating of the good psyche/spirit out of evil matter. However, as Carl Jung experienced in 1913 first, this will end in a catastrophe -- the complete breakdown.

Thus, it is much better to give up all this romatic idealism (in German "Himmelsstürmerei", ie the "Heaven's rush") and become conscious of the fact that the ego has to come down. I'm glad that exactly in this moment Blackcat opened a new thread with this topic, see http://kaleidoscope-forum.org/talk/viewtopic.php?t=420 . This means that what I call the Logos ego has to come down and transform into the Eros ego. Like this the latter can enter what I call Body-Centered Imagination, but there are of course also different methods to do that.

2) Like this one enters a realm which is behind or even beyond Carl Jung's collective unconscious. In it the perception of time and space changes, and one approaches what I call the "always/everywhere," a realm in which one can have the corporeal sensation that one is deeply centered and at the same time spread out in the surrounding. Further time becomes almost eternal. The feeling is probably the one the mystics had (and have) when they experienced the closeness to God.

3) In such moments one can experience what I call the incarnations out of the unus mundus into our world of space and time, an acausal process, which means that one is always very amazed and even horrified when it happens spontaneously. This is the "illegitimate child" (since it is acausally born, without a causal fathering), the red tincture extracted from the lapis, the quintessence extracted from the Seal of Solomon, the (multiplified) radiation (!) of the lapis, the gilding of the surrounding by the philosophical gold, the birth of the infans solaris (which is however born out of the intermediary realm). The necessary background of such an experience is a bipolar energy term - in contrast to the physical, which is unipolar. This is symbolized by the Seal of Solomon, which is itself a symbol of the union of the two qualitatively different energies. This aspect of the Hermetic opus is almost not describable, however, everyone who has experienced it only once, knows what I'm taliking of. It is the realization of the Tao.

I do not know if the things are clearer now. I'd like however to mention further that this experience is not what one experiences in Active Imagination. It is much more, and in contrast to the latter one does not try to distinguish from "the unconscious," but to melt with it. It is not an extraction of the psyche from matter [and like this a (Neoplatonic) separation], but a reunion of spirit, psyche and matter. Probably the final state of such an experience is what Dorneus described as the reunion of the (Eros) ego with the unus mundus.

It seems that such states lead to the situation which Carl Jung describes intuitively with the following words:
Quote:
“So far as I can grasp the nature of the collective unconscious [unus mundus; RFR], it seems to me like an omnipresent continuum, an unextended Everywhere. That is to say, when something happens here at point A which touches upon or affects the collective unconscious [unus mundus; RFR], it has happened everywhere.“ [Letters, vol. 1, p. 58]


As a result of his Neoplatonic limitation -- at least of his theory -- Carl Jung was however not yet able to describe these experiences theoretically. He did however experience them, especially after his first heart attack of 1944.

Remo

_________________
'Here stands the mean uncomely stone,
Tis very cheap in price!
The more it is despised by fools,
The more loved by the wise.'
(C.G. Jung, MDR, p. 253)
WebSite: http://www.paulijungunusmundus.eu


Last edited by Remo Roth on Wed Aug 16, 2006 9:12 am, edited 1 time in total.



Tue Aug 15, 2006 1:16 pm
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Post 
Cindy's comment:
Quote:
Jung: "Human knowledge consists essentially in the constant adaptation of the primordial pattern of ideas that were given us 'a priori.'" :wink:

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'Here stands the mean uncomely stone,
Tis very cheap in price!
The more it is despised by fools,
The more loved by the wise.'
(C.G. Jung, MDR, p. 253)
WebSite: http://www.paulijungunusmundus.eu


Tue Aug 15, 2006 1:17 pm
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Post [And my answer:]
A Personal Statement

Thank you, Cindy

I'd like to seize the opportunity to show my intention a little more clearly.

As a scientist especially also educated in mathematics, my intention is it to clarify theories. Carl Jung's theory is in more than one aspect ambiguous. Thus, there is a need for a clarification. As much as I see up until today, it is exactly his insecurity of a distinction between the Neoplatonic and the Hermetic worldview which leads to this lack of clarity. Though he is the "ancestor" of a revolutionary re-establishment of a new, Hermetic worldview, it was, as I will show in one of the next posts, not his destiny to really succeed with this breakthrough. This is also the reason why he, in fact rooted in a Neoplatonic worldview, got very much trouble with the ideas of Wolfgang Pauli, whose dreams stressed in an almost incredible manner the Hermetic aspect of life and science. Thus between these two men a discussion on an extremly high level took place (see Atom and Archetype). In it, they were however not able to solve the problem of the difference between the Neoplatonic and the Hermetic worldview, especially, as I think, since Pauli was not yet able to really accept that the fission of the atom and the artificial radioactive decay connected with it, is in fact (black) magics, and thus a modern but unconscious form of Hermetic alchemy [though Pauli expressed such guesses of modern physics as black magics towards Markus Fierz and Aniela Jaffé]. This insight becomes now very slowly conscious in more and more people -- especially in women, who are because of their more profound relationship with the Eros principle much closer to these phenomena than men.

I hope that I have shown with the above statement that I'm driven by a completely scientific approach, which is only interested in the (temporary) truth, and nothing but the truth. [It seems however that in the Jungian community people have some difficulties to distinguish between such a scientific approach and the attempt of a dishonorable disparagement of a human (obviously an Anima/Animus problem).] I'd like therefore to get rid of the reproach -- mentioned already in the cgjungforum/talk and also here -- that I try to marginalize Carl Jung. He was and still is one of the greatest scientists of the 20th century. Without his insights and discoveries we could not go on in successfully differentiating for example synchronicity from magics. Carl Jung as well as Wolfgang Pauli are for me the giants on whose shoulders we stand, when we try to go on in finding new scientific results.

Remo

_________________
'Here stands the mean uncomely stone,
Tis very cheap in price!
The more it is despised by fools,
The more loved by the wise.'
(C.G. Jung, MDR, p. 253)
WebSite: http://www.paulijungunusmundus.eu


Last edited by Remo Roth on Wed Aug 16, 2006 11:42 am, edited 1 time in total.



Tue Aug 15, 2006 1:19 pm
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Post Queer Logic, Logos ego and Fall into the Eros ego
Then my argumentation was interrupted by a person, which did already earlier argue out of a completely esoterically blurred worldview. Since I think that we should argue with the help of the scientific means modern physicists and depth psychologists (but not esoteric people) acquired in hard work, I decided to copy this thread into our UNUS MUNDUS forum, and to go on here, where we can throw out such confused and confusing people.

Since this esoteric hoovering in the "mist of Avalon" is an attitude one encounters more and more in Jungian forums, I'd like to give here my answer:

The trouble of such people is that they first are much too much in their Neoplatonic Heavens and thus are identical with their thinking function. Then (or perhaps because of this) their brain gets more and more covered by a smoke screen and blurred. They begin to argue in a really confusing manner, in which everything can mean everything, everything nothing, nothing everything and nothing nothing. I have experienced such a behaviour exactly in the mother of all Jungian institutes in Zurich. It is a behaviour which is specific for a completely repressed feeling function.

The solution would be to accept that there is some fog in the brain, thus, to give up the queer logic of this state and transform the Logos ego into what I call the Eros ego or the belly brain. There these completely foggy thoughts can clear "in the fire of the Hell", and then one can go on thinking with the brain.

However, such a "fall" would mean that one accepts that the gut brain thinks better than the cortex. This is however a sheer impossibility for such people, since they are incredibly afraid of letting loose of their queer logic produced by the grey substance.

Remo

_________________
'Here stands the mean uncomely stone,
Tis very cheap in price!
The more it is despised by fools,
The more loved by the wise.'
(C.G. Jung, MDR, p. 253)
WebSite: http://www.paulijungunusmundus.eu


Tue Aug 15, 2006 1:40 pm
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Post the New Frontier
Thanks, Remo, for presenting these 'kaleidescope' entries here for us to read. As far as I can tell, you made great headway, despite the inevitable entrance of 'queer logic' --- ... . Oh well, it is not tragic at least, as doubtless many new people had the perfect chance to see your considerable focus 'ring out and clear' on the matters at hand - and what matters they are - ! It is really so great to see these thoughts disseminated elsewhere - the work you have accomplished, to my mind, just gets clearer and clearer with each passing day. I also wanted to say that in your 'kaleidescope' entries above, your very specific description of the unio corporalis theory for the layperson, for those who have no background in Jung or in Alchemy, stands out as a stroke of incredibly intelligent timing on your part. Many will surely have caught your words at that point, if they did not do so earlier, and once the 'worm' has entered the 'mind' there will be no rest for it, it is to be hoped! Very basically, I guess, nothing important was really left 'unsaid' above, that is before 'the (toxic) fog' came along to put an end to your sure-footed 'surfing' feat, but, hey, we will not be crying here on the U.M. - onward into the waves, we say!

I wanted to step in here to drop off a link to an article which pertains to the idea of the 'gut-brain' which you mentionned in your discourse above - thought it might be interesting/helpful if anyone hasn't read anything about this yet...

http://thothweb.com/article3512.html

(n.b: some of this article is not so illuminating, even irritating, but there are some interesting moments which show that society may one day be able to accept alot of the things we (and others elsewhere hopefully!) begin to disseminate here on this forum)



And Remo: apparently being the frontman for a movement into the New Frontier is a 24 hr. job, even after 30 years or more on the job --- salutations to you, as ever!


Kristin

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Wed Aug 16, 2006 7:19 am
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Post The Importance of the Feeling Function
I'd like to explain a little more the following statement of above:

Quote:
They begin to argue in a really confusing manner, in which everything can mean everything, everything nothing, nothing everything and nothing nothing. I have experienced such a behaviour exactly in the mother of all Jungian institutes in Zurich. It is a behaviour which is specific for a completely repressed feeling function.


According to Carl Jung the feeling function is the worth giving function. This seems to me to be a very good interpretation. Feelings say yes or no, good or bad, light or dark, write or wrong. The feeling function is always bipolar. It does not argue with the help of a logical thread of thoughts, as does the thinking function. Thus, intellectual people -- but not thinking types who have integrated their inferior feeling function (as for example Marie-Louise von Franz) -- call feeling types irrational.

However, Carl Jung defined the feeling function as rational. It leads to a conscious judgement, and thus to an orientation of the ego. With the help of the feeling function one feels (yes!) what is right and what is wrong for oneself and for the other ones. Like this one gets those deep roots, which one cannot realize with the help of the thinking function. A feeling type who has realized his/her main function and has the courage to live it introvertedly and extravertedly, feels that she/he is like a tree with deep taproots.

With the help of a conscious feeling function one can also control the thinking function, especially in the amplification process. Feelings tell you if an amplification (or an association) belongs to the context you are looking at. One just feels if the amplification is right or wrong.

Further, the use of the feeling function is especially important in symbolic thinking, since in it the logic of thinking is "weakened" (the fact, which enrages scienctists so much). [See Carl Jung's CW 5, part I, chapter II for the symbolic thinking. He does however not yet see the connection with the integrated feeling function]. Thus we need a substitute for the strictly causal logic. This substitute is the feeling function. It prevents us of the above "mist," in which anything means anything, created by a mere intellectual thinking in the realm of symbols, dreams and visions.

This "anything can mean anything" is widespread in psychological circles, especially in Jungian ones. As I mentioned, I found it extremely common in the mother of all Jungian Institutes, in the C.G. Jung Institute of Zurich. Thus, I realized, in applying Carl Jung's typology onto this institute, that such nuisances are the result of a complete repression of the feeling function.

There the shadow of Carl Jung's depth psychology begins, as also Matt speaks of in the concerning thread in the Kaleidoscope forum. This shadow -- he calls it the "Other-Self" -- is exactly what I call the Eros Self, the latter being absent in Jung's theory. This is explainable since he himself had an inferior feeling function. Though he lived it in his personal life, he was not yet able to integrate it into his theory. This is why I defined what I call today the Eros ego or Eros consciousness (related to the Eros Self).

Remo

_________________
'Here stands the mean uncomely stone,
Tis very cheap in price!
The more it is despised by fools,
The more loved by the wise.'
(C.G. Jung, MDR, p. 253)
WebSite: http://www.paulijungunusmundus.eu


Wed Aug 16, 2006 9:53 am
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Post The Attack Leads into a Creative Impulse
The interesting aspect of such interventions as mentioned above is that they animate to write practical conclusions derived from my theoretical research about Carl Jung's tension or even split between the Neoplatonic and Hermetic worldview.

As I learned in the course of the last 33 years, it seems to be a general attitude in my life that such attacks lead spontaneously into a creative impulse. This is perhaps important to notice for all the people who have themselves a creative fate.

Remo

_________________
'Here stands the mean uncomely stone,
Tis very cheap in price!
The more it is despised by fools,
The more loved by the wise.'
(C.G. Jung, MDR, p. 253)
WebSite: http://www.paulijungunusmundus.eu


Wed Aug 16, 2006 11:34 am
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Post Re: the New Frontier
kristin wrote:
Thanks, Remo, for presenting these 'kaleidescope' entries here for us to read. As far as I can tell, you made great headway, despite the inevitable entrance of 'queer logic' --- ...


Thanks, Kristin

I feel, too, that my circumambulation leads more and more closer to the center. I am glad that I can develop my thoughts in this way, since such a work is much more related to people than writing as a writer in the lonely "scriptorium."

Remo

_________________
'Here stands the mean uncomely stone,
Tis very cheap in price!
The more it is despised by fools,
The more loved by the wise.'
(C.G. Jung, MDR, p. 253)
WebSite: http://www.paulijungunusmundus.eu


Wed Aug 16, 2006 11:47 am
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