UNUS MUNDUS

The UNUS MUNDUS forum of Psychovision (Remo F. Roth) invites discussion of theoretical and practical issues of a possible union of Carl Jung's depth psychology with quantum physical principles.
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 Latest chapters 
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Joined: Wed Apr 26, 2006 6:35 am
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Post Latest chapters
remo-

Thanks for your excellent work.

I have a question about Jung's type.

One theory that I have appreciated is John Beebe's further devlopment of Jung's aproach to type.

Beebe finds that progression through certain archetypes/shadows are associated with the dominant,auxiliary and inferoir functions and that each has an extraverted and introverted pole. This gives somewhat of a developmental perspective to consciousness through certain functions and how they tend to be used.

For example, he contends that Freud was an introverted feeling type. The archetype of the dominant function is the hero/opponent. The most opposed function to Freud's heroic introverted feeling would be extraverted feeling, the same function of the opposite attitude.

Freud's inferior function would be the opposite function and attitude or extraverted thinking. beebe claims that this allowed Freud to tap into the uncocnscious in a way that energized and enabled him to become a great writer/convinvcer. The archetype of the inferior function is the soul/demon.

The archetypes associated with the secondary function is the good mother father/bad mother father, and the archetype of the tertiary function would be the child/trickster.

Typologically, Beebe's says Jungs dominant function is Introverted intuition which means extraverted thinking is his secondary function which he needed to develop first to adapt when intuition was not enough.

His tertiary function would be introverted feeling. This means that EXTRAVERTED feeling was in the service unconsciously of the trickster archrtype and was threatening to Freud's dominant introverted feeling, thus constellating a STRONG OPPOSITION (opponent archetype) between the two, leading to the break.

This would also mean that Jung's inferioir function would be Extraverted sensation which would work in the soul/anima pattern.

This would also mean that the demonic aspect would be the introverted sensation which I think as you have pointed out would lead to trouble recognizing the VEGATATIVE NERVOUS SYSTEM related sensation as the area Jung would be most unconscious about. His relattion to this would be initially through the archetype fo the demon as opposed to the soul.

So it might make sense to also see Jung from the perspective of either sensation or feeling being the inferior function.


Wed May 09, 2007 6:19 pm
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Post Re: Latest chapters
Thank you, Tom, for this interesting view

Tom wrote:

Thanks for your excellent work.


All: See http://www.psychovision.ch/hknw/holy_we ... 5p44_e.htm and following.

I just inserted a new thread with a link to my last contributions in the Kaleidoscope forum; see http://kaleidoscope-forum.org/talk/inde ... pic=1275.0

There I explain also that alternatively to the known facts concerning the inferior function Carl Jung thought that his inferior function was the "Gefühlsempfindung" (feeling/sensation), with which statement he relativizes the inferior function. He talks of two of them as inferior, and combined, melted. Thus, John Beebe's interpretation fits perfect into his other view.

Quote:
This would also mean that Jung's inferior function would be Extraverted sensation which would work in the soul/anima pattern.

This would also mean that the demonic aspect would be the introverted sensation which I think as you have pointed out would lead to trouble recognizing the VEGATATIVE NERVOUS SYSTEM related sensation as the area Jung would be most unconscious about. His relattion to this would be initially through the archetype fo the demon as opposed to the soul.

So it might make sense to also see Jung from the perspective of either sensation or feeling being the inferior function.


Your idea of the VNS as his weak point is perfect. It corresponds to my idea of his repression of the Eros ego, which is introverted feeling, introverted vegetative sensation ("inner aspect of the body") and intuition, and conscious repression of the thinking function during BCI.

One could really look at his (vegetative) sensation or feeling/sensation as the demonic aspect. This is why he was not able to deal with Salome, and re-vitalized the white head of the black snake, ie his thinking function. The latter helped him not to melt with Salome. However, his dream of the Leontocephalus and the snakes shows perhaps that this had been his (last) task. Did he approach it after his heart attack? His visions (including the dissolution of time and space) and his states of being dissolved into the nature around him seem to show that this is true. He was however not able anymore to integrate these experiences into his theory.

A similar experience I had with Marie-Louise von Franz. After reading my book Hat AIDS einen Sinn?, in which I described BCI for the first time (MLvF: "A revolutionary book.") she began to enter BCI, thus to empirically experience the subtle body phenomenology, but was not able anymore to integrate it theoretically, ie into Jung's theory.

Jung had a very bad relationship with his body. Some biographers talk about this, as much as I remember also D. Bair.

Yes, we could see all this also out of this view.

Remo

_________________
'Here stands the mean uncomely stone,
Tis very cheap in price!
The more it is despised by fools,
The more loved by the wise.'
(C.G. Jung, MDR, p. 253)
WebSite: http://www.paulijungunusmundus.eu


Thu May 10, 2007 10:41 am
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Post Flue's wheel
Tom, Remo,

For the first time, by seeing Jung's drawing of the four functions; the inferior shaded and auxilory functions half shaded, could I see how it relates to Flue's wheel.

Ryan

_________________
"Let us go then, you and I,
When the evening is spread out against the sky
Like a patient etherised upon a table;"
-T.S. Eliot: The Love Song of J. Alfred Prufrock


Fri May 11, 2007 2:50 pm
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Post stuff
I am reacting to different posts from here and Kaleidoscope.
I guess I am annoyed with a few things, though I have no fight, no battle to win. My experience is enough with me.

I hope this post will not stay unanswered as many of mine for at times I really wonder about my English. :lol:

As long as one feels the wound it means that healing has not had its share. But here I am talking of a very special type of healing. I know that a time comes hopefully when such a healing happens. This healing simply cuts once for all any resistance towards the flow of life out of the Unus Mundus. Of course this has a few consequences as regards the strategic position of the Logos Ego such as for instance its complete relativization as regards the Eros Self.
By this I mean that the Logos Ego eventually becomes also a sort of self reflecting tool but no more, and even that is enough.

I have been pondering about a few things you wrote my so dear Remo about the anima, the feeling types and Jung’s typology.

I guess you are on the right track but still fiddling with words and concepts.

My personal reaction of long as regards all this stuff is that it simply could not work with me.
So I agree heartily with your questioning but would like to add a little bit of mine:

As far as I have been able to understand CGJ, it seems to me there is a big confusion in his theory between different CONCEPTS: inferior function, the anima/animus and the transcendent function (or is it my confusion?)

On one side Jung says that the inferior function is the link to the unconscious, on another he says that the anima/animus is also the link to the unconscious/[Logos] Self, and then he also develops his theory of the psychopumpus and the transcendent function.

All this is very shitty.

I have never had a conflicting relation with the anima. I have always felt she was driving me where I belonged to whatever the heck and the pains. Thus you will say this is typical of a feeling type relation to the Great feminine. But I am not sure this is exactly that.

Saying as you do that anima conflicts are typical of thinking types might be true but maybe you go a little bit too fast.

As I wrote somewhere else functions are tools, and I do not agree with Jung that it is so difficult to put the four of them at work together. So the point is not with the function orientation but with the Ego’s charge in terms of unconscious power.
True enough we are a thinking (extraverted) civilization but this does not mean that thinking is evil. Thinking types may have big difficulties to relate to the Eros World, but this is not because they are thinking types. It is because the overall collective pressure enhances extraverted thinking as the best adaptation to reality (!!!). Thus they are not helped at all in integrating the other functions. However they can. It is simply much more complicated, hard, and difficult.

So comes also the ‘anima’ CONCEPT.
The anima concept is the symbolic representation of the repressed opposite in a man. She is feminine because a man is masculine. But of course this has not much to do with concretized sex differences. It is energy stuff.
I would say that the anima CONCEPT is a very rough description of the ultimate opposite in a male psyche. So of course in thinking types she very easily melts with repressed feeling, and cannot appear as such of course in a feeling type. But it does not mean that a feeling type has no anima troubles till he stays unconscious of the power drive. Many male feeling types cannot really relate to the UM because of the power drive, and the unconscious extraverted relation to the world this one implies.
So I guess that the anima stuff is a very special dimension. The anima opposes the unconscious power drive because she is completely belongs to Eros Self in depth.

I have been shown in one of my visions that ‘archetypes’ are the ‘upper’ manifestation of the united Eros Self, sorts of knots (as a tree has knots) ‘used’ to drag consciousness away and free it from the unconscious extraverted power drive. Something of the kind also appeared in Maria’s visions. So the anima, described as an archetype by Jung, behaves that way to.

I guess that Jung’s whole conceptual apparatus is approximate because exactly of his falling into the unconsciousness of the power drive.

So to my mind you are circumbulating very close to the point but maybe you should have a more refined approach.

I would like to go a little bit further though, and what is coming will certainly have a perfume of hell for many people.

In my experience the relation with the Eros Self becomes a sort of permanent state. Nothing in my life can be done anymore without it. It means that the conscious abandon of the Logos Ego’s will leads somewhere else. From the starting point, almost experimental, of the BCI (everybody should do this!) comes a completely different way of living one’s life.
If one really goes down enough say into the belly then a new life is led through us. This life does not belong to us; we are just its carrier/enactor in this present incarnation.
Of course it means being mad (enough). It means that our choices are not taken by our conscious will but by our conscious will-lessness.

This is bloody possible. More this is bloody right and necessary.

Roger.

_________________
Fire over wood:
THE IMAGE of THE CAULDRON.
Thus the superior man consolidates his fate By making his position correct.
The fate of fire depends on wood; as long as there is wood below, the fire burns above. It is the same in human life; there is in man likewise a fate that lends power to his life. And if he succeeds in assigning the right place to life and to fate, thus bringing the two into harmony, he puts his fate on a firm footing.

I Ching #50


Thu May 17, 2007 1:58 pm
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Post 
Roger,

I agree that I don't think bliss is the ultimate experience of BCI or inner life. Rather that bliss occurs in isolated moments and can't be searched for. Too, addiction to bliss or the search for bliss as an end state, leads to or encourages inflation. In my beginning experiences with putting myself into the hands of BCI or perhaps better said (I incorporated BCI into my life, and this is probably a great distinction!) The bliss came because I felt I was riding something bigger than myself and it was quite intense and amazing and frightening - the whole lot.

However, for those inexperienced such as myself with a moderate knowledge of Jung this can prove to be quite dangerous. Because the logos 'reflecting tool' is missing. I have since read some very good essays by MLvF which have put into perspective what went wrong so to speak. Too, I have become more conscious that ethically speaking, the images which appear do say a lot.

Thus I think it is important for some people to Understand what is appearing. In this way, I see BCI as a manner to cut off the head, but that the language of Remo and Jung necessarily bring it back. This I suppose is the down and up. And dreams act as a sort of modifier that tinkers with the faulty thinking or attitude, perhaps better said as the results of the experiment.

As far as the creative process goes, I still experience it separately from the inner process. Creativity in my case has not come out by necessity (consciously) as a natural growth of the process, this is perhaps why the pirates appear (extracting spirit from matter) or stealing the process as Remo once mentioned.

Too, I find it hard to stay within the process with life as it is. Rather the process feels discontinuous. With starts and stops, which makes it difficult to remain in the 'flow' so to speak. And it is this fragmentation allows the 'logos' to muck up the works in my case.

Thus each time there is a sense of 'beginning anew'. Which is fine, but a sense of evolution or growth or even 'quantum leaps' become minimalized as if I have planted many seeds but none have been given the opportunity to grow.

I don't place to much emphais on 'Anima problems'. I am content for now to see that at times they appear distinct and conflicting and at other times in harmony (the light and dark). But I would venture it is a natural process regardless of type.

I would that there is some alternating process which simulates the up and down of BCI and Jung. dark light dark light dark light and perhaps at one point the relationship to Her becomes relatively stable.

That's about it,

Ryan

_________________
"Let us go then, you and I,
When the evening is spread out against the sky
Like a patient etherised upon a table;"
-T.S. Eliot: The Love Song of J. Alfred Prufrock


Fri May 18, 2007 1:55 pm
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Post Re: stuff
Roger

In your posts there is so much stuff that I cannot answer everything. Further, such forum discussions have a limitation, at least for me. In fact I can discuss such complicated things only in a personal talk.

Roger Faglin wrote:
So comes also the ‘anima’ CONCEPT.
The anima concept is the symbolic representation of the repressed opposite in a man. She is feminine because a man is masculine. But of course this has not much to do with concretized sex differences. It is energy stuff.


If one reads the writings of Jung, in which he begins to define the anima, one sees that the anima has not too much to do with the feeling function. As I describe in Chapter 5 of The Holy Wedding, in my terminology we can circumscribe the anima with the term feminine spirit-psyche. In Jung's terminology we would say that she is a feminine thinking type. This becomes very clear when one reads Psychological Types.

This fact is also backed by the fact that the model for Jung's anima was Maria Moltzer. I quote out of my ms:

Quote:
Maria Moltzer is described as “strong-minded” , “intellectual ,” “nun-like, ascetic, virginal, and pure” , “austere and frugal” It seems that Jung was very much physically attracted by her , and she is said to be the first image for the depth psychologist’s anima , the inner feminine aspect in men. This is a further hint to my hypothesis that Carl Jung’s anima can in a neutral language be defined as “feminine spirit-psyche.”


I must say that I would never be attracted by such a woman. This is surely not the feminine principle per se. I cannot at all identify with such a woman in me. She just does not exist.

My femininity has much more to do with the anima mundi, which is, as I also show, not at all the same as theanima. The former is the Goddess, the latter is only a appendage of the (thinking?) consciousness. Jung, however mixes the two up and creates like this a contradiction. On the one hand the anima is between the ego and the unconscious, on the other she is the principle which unifies spirit and matter. If we realize that the latter is not the anima, but the Goddess anima mundi this contradiction is solved.

Further, you are also writing of a "power driven feeling." By definition this is not possible. Feeling in the sense of Jung is a rational function, which has a 0/1 characteristic. Its says yes or no, I like it or I do not like it, and so on. Like this a feeling type decides and judges. Since they judge (by feeling instead of a logical construction like the thinking types), they are, at least in the definition of Jung, rational.

The most important aspect is however, that conscious feeling has nothing to do with emotions. I guess you mix these two things up when you talk of a power driven feeling. Of course, emotions have very much to do with power, but not feeling. Feeling is powerless, just decides yes or no. To this feeling belongs, at least in my case, a very sublime sensation in the belly. As much as I see, Carl Jung's A.I. has the meaning (at least how he describes it in Psychological Types and in Analytical Psychology) to transform the non-directed, emotional thinking of what I call the "Moltzer-Anima" (see above) into creative insights on the one hand, and into conscious feelings in the above meaning on the other. Since a feeling type is already conscious of exactly these (0/1) feelings, they do not need such a procedure to extract the feelings. This is what I meant with the sentence that a feeling type does perhaps not have an anima (at least not in the sense of Jung).

Remo

_________________
'Here stands the mean uncomely stone,
Tis very cheap in price!
The more it is despised by fools,
The more loved by the wise.'
(C.G. Jung, MDR, p. 253)
WebSite: http://www.paulijungunusmundus.eu


Fri May 18, 2007 4:32 pm
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Post Re: stuff
Roger

Roger Faglin wrote:
I hope this post will not stay unanswered as many of mine ...


My feelings tell me that you are hurt by this. It is however a principle of me as a feeling type that I answer only if my feeling says yes. There are other posts of other members, which are unanswered. Also many of mine. But I accept that in forum discussion this is like this. I am not hurt.

Remo

_________________
'Here stands the mean uncomely stone,
Tis very cheap in price!
The more it is despised by fools,
The more loved by the wise.'
(C.G. Jung, MDR, p. 253)
WebSite: http://www.paulijungunusmundus.eu


Fri May 18, 2007 4:37 pm
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Post Re: stuff
Remo Roth wrote:
Roger

Roger Faglin wrote:
I hope this post will not stay unanswered as many of mine ...


My feelings tell me that you are hurt by this. It is however a principle of me as a feeling type that I answer only if my feeling says yes. There are other posts of other members, which are unanswered. Also many of mine. But I accept that in forum discussion this is like this. I am not hurt.

Remo


dear Remo,

Not at all. I am not hurt: just playing the fool. I have no real pride.

A lot of people here are interested in that you can explain and develop your thoughts. And I felt that I had to catch your attention a little that's all.

Roger

_________________
Fire over wood:
THE IMAGE of THE CAULDRON.
Thus the superior man consolidates his fate By making his position correct.
The fate of fire depends on wood; as long as there is wood below, the fire burns above. It is the same in human life; there is in man likewise a fate that lends power to his life. And if he succeeds in assigning the right place to life and to fate, thus bringing the two into harmony, he puts his fate on a firm footing.

I Ching #50


Fri May 18, 2007 5:44 pm
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