UNUS MUNDUS

The UNUS MUNDUS forum of Psychovision (Remo F. Roth) invites discussion of theoretical and practical issues of a possible union of Carl Jung's depth psychology with quantum physical principles.
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 Back to the Rhizome (Carl Jung) 
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Post Back to the Rhizome (Carl Jung)
I open a new thread with Kristin's remark about the mycelium in Hiroshima, mon amour

Quote:
What about the 'glue', the cement, of the healthy forest floor, the mycelium, that vast single body of healing fungus? It has even been postulated that this fungus came to earth from a distant place and was the very first life form on the planet. A metaphor for, perhaps even a literal example of, 'Love', which in itself could be described as a healing 'body', situated within the physical body of the human being or of the planet, in this case composed of millions of interactive spores which hold the entire ecosystem together. The action of the mycelium for the health of the very planet can only be viewed with awe.

And what about this idea of 'innoculation' in this respect, the innoculation of the body with an elixir of love? To follow homeopathic principle, where just a very little of the poison that makes one sick can cure the 'soul' and thus the body too.


I guess that the symbol "mycelium" is even a better term than Carl Jung's famous metaphor of the "underground rhizome", since it is much more a network between the single mushrooms than the rhizome of plants. Thus, it is much more a symbol for the Eros Self and the Eros ego, in which the terms union and relationship are the decisive ones.

Perhaps we could amplify a little with the biological aspect of mushrooms, and especially with the mycelium. What properties does the latter exactly have?

The mycelium "came to earth from a distant place and was the very first life form on the planet"? What an interesting speculation, when seen from a symbolical/psychophysical standpoint! If we withdraw the projection of the unus mundus (the "always/everywhere") onto the "distant place", the "other star" or any other object in the universe, this would mean that the mycelium, the "vegetative part of a fungus" (see definition in Wikipedia below), so to speak its "vegetative nervous system", comes out of the unus mundus. A perfect confirmation of what I call the Eros Self (= unus mundus), in which everything is connected with everything.

Wikipedia definition:

Quote:
Mycelium is the vegetative part of a fungus consisting of a mass of branching threadlike hyphae that exists below the ground or within another substrate. The familiar hat-like head and stalk of a mushroom carries the reproductive structures of ascomycetes and basidiomycetes fungi and is formed of hyphae, but considered separate from the mycelium part of the fungus.

It is through the mycelium that a fungus absorbs nutrients from its environment. It does this in a two stage process. Firstly the hyphae secrete enzymes onto the food source which breaks down polymers into monomers. These monomers are then absorbed into the mycelium by facilitated diffusion and active transport. Mycelium is also a vital component in many ecosystems in that it helps increase the efficiency of water and nutrient absorption of many plants and also is vital to the decomposition and breaking-up of plant material to form the organic part of soil and to release carbon dioxide back into the atmosphere.


And further:

Quote:
One of the primary roles of fungi in an ecosystem is that of decomposition of organic compounds. Petroleum products, pesticides, and herbicides, that can be contamiants of soil, are organic molecules. Fungi therefore should have potential to remove such pollutants from the soil environment, a process known as bioremediation.

Mycelial mats have been suggested (see Paul Stamets) as having potential as biological filters, removing chemicals and microorganisms from soil and water. The use of fungal mycelia to accomplish this has been termed "mycofiltration", although there is no reason to suspect that the process is any different from that of bioremediation using fungi.


Is this the connection of mushrooms with UFO/radioactivity that Christopher's dreams and visions suggest?

Remo

_________________
'Here stands the mean uncomely stone,
Tis very cheap in price!
The more it is despised by fools,
The more loved by the wise.'
(C.G. Jung, MDR, p. 253)
WebSite: http://www.paulijungunusmundus.eu


Tue Apr 04, 2006 8:23 am
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Post E.T. MUSHROOM: PHONE HOME!
"I am old, older than thought in your species, which is itself fifty times older than your history. Though I have been on earth for ages I am from the stars. My home is no one planet, for many worlds scattered through the shining disc of the galaxy have conditions which allow my spores an opportunity for life. The mushroom which you see is the part of my body given to sex thrills and sun bathing, my true body is a fine network of fibers growing through the soil. These networks may cover acres and may have far more connections than the number in a human brain.

My mycelial network is nearly immortal--only the sudden toxification of a planet or the explosion of it's parent star can wipe me out. By means impossible to explain because of certain misconceptions in your model of reality all my mycelial networks in the galaxy are in hyperlight communication through space and time.

The mycelial body is as fragile as a spider's web but the collective hypermind and memory is a vast historical archive of the career of evolving intelligence on many worlds in our spiral star swarm. Space, you see, is a vast ocean to those hardy life forms that have the ability to reproduce from spores, for spores are covered with the hardest organic substance known.

Across the aeons of time and space drift many spore forming life-forms in suspended animation for millions of years until contact is made with a suitable environment. Few such species are minded, only myself and my recently evolved near relatives have achieved the hyper-communication mode and memory capacity that makes us leading members in the community of galactic intelligence. How the hyper-communication mode operates is a secret which will not be lightly given to humans.

But the means should be obvious: it is the occurence of psilocybin and psilocin in the biosynthetic pathways of my living body that opens for me and my symbiots the vision screens to many worlds. You as an individual and Homo sapiens as a species are on the brink of the formation of a symbiotic relationship with my genetic material that will eventually carry humanity and earth into the galactic mainstream of the higher civilizations.

Since it is not easy for you to recognize other varieties of intelligence around you, your most advanced theories of politics and society have advanced only as far as the notion of collectivism. But beyond the cohesion of the members of a species into a single social organism there lie richer and even more baroque evolutionary possibilities. Symbiosis is one of these. Symbiosis is a relation of mutual dependence and positive benifits for both species involved.

Symbiotic relationships between myself and civilized forms of higher animals have been established many times and in many places throughout the long ages of my development. These relationships have been mutually useful; within my memory is the knowledge of hyperlight drive ships and how to build them. I will trade this knowledge for a free ticket to new worlds around suns younger and more stable than your own.

To secure an eternal existence down the long river of cosmic time, I again and again offer this agreement to higher beings and thereby have spread throughout the galaxy over the long millenia.

A mycelial network has no organs to move the world, no hands; but higher animals with manipulative abilities can become partners with the star knowledge within me and if they act in good faith, return both themselves and their humble mushroom teacher to the million worlds to which all citizens of our starswarm are heir."


-- Taken from Psilocybin: The Magic Mushroom Growers Guide


This is the information imparted to Terence McKenna from the mushroom intelligence itself. This is where the idea of it being of extraterrestrial origin comes from... sort of a panspermia concept, dispersed through interstellar space, looking for a nervous system to bond with.

Chris


Tue Apr 04, 2006 4:42 pm
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Post Re: E.T. MUSHROOM: PHONE HOME!
Christopher Ross wrote:
"...
The mycelial body is as fragile as a spider's web but the collective hypermind and memory is a vast historical archive of the career of evolving intelligence on many worlds in our spiral star swarm. Space, you see, is a vast ocean to those hardy life forms that have the ability to reproduce from spores, for spores are covered with the hardest organic substance known.
...
"


Hum...

When I read the above extract, I immediately thought of my spider dream (see: http://psychophysical.free.fr/viewtopic.php?t=73). I guess I was not the only one . :wink:

The analogy between the spider's web and the 'mycelial body' is only hinted at but we find there anyway the idea of a structural network of immeasurable length and expanse but made of the most tenuous though at the same time very tough matter.

The 'mycelial body' is also compared further down with a human brain:
Quote:
These networks may cover acres and may have far more connections than the number in a human brain.

But I guess that a better comparison would be with the gut-brain.

Anyway we find there the same idea as in Jung's metaphor of the 'underground rhizome' (see Remo's amplifications in the same thread above).

What is very interesting in Mc Kenna's vision is that the mycelium needs the help of human beings to survive. The symbiosis described as a kind of perfect deal carries the idea of the coniunctio. In this "deal" both are transformed.

We are circumambulating the same theme everywhere in the forum: we both need each other. The "hidden" mycelium (the potential reality of the Unus Mundus) needs our consciousness (cooperative, observing, wu wei like) and we need to collaborate with the "mycelium" simply to evolve and go on living...

All this is very interesting indeed.

_________________
Fire over wood:
THE IMAGE of THE CAULDRON.
Thus the superior man consolidates his fate By making his position correct.
The fate of fire depends on wood; as long as there is wood below, the fire burns above. It is the same in human life; there is in man likewise a fate that lends power to his life. And if he succeeds in assigning the right place to life and to fate, thus bringing the two into harmony, he puts his fate on a firm footing.

I Ching #50


Tue Apr 04, 2006 6:03 pm
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Post the world wide web
isn't it interesting that we interact here together on the WORLD WIDE WEB ?




Image


The tiny white threads of fungus spread out everywhere both upon and deep beneath the forest floor. Everything connects up with every other thing in one vast network of supportive glue. The silvery threads of the spiders web in Rogers' dream. The invisible grid that 'holds the world together'. The Grid of Life supports God as well. Creative symbiosis seems to bring about the best results!


This topic has amazing implications. Bioremediation is one fantastic subject. Paul Stametz is a pioneer in this regard.

But now what do we do with the idea of radiation and the 'mushroom'? The mushroom 'cloud' explodes overhead, but it is also shaped like the canopy of a gigantic tree. For a long time when she was younger, my sister used to wake up at night with one phrase repeating in her head: "Big Tree". What was this about? At first for a long time she envisionned the menacing mushroom cloud, the nuclear event, and felt afraid. She was actually haunted by this image. But then - perhaps it was the vision of that very other actual thing that could help to save her from the projected explosion. Later she came to feel that it had been just that - her unconscious was gifting her with an inner image of personal salvation. Probably it is archetypal, a possible saviour for us all, the strange double of the mushroom cloud.

And meanwhile, beneath that magic tree, the same mushroom (magic#2), diligently bringing health to all beings through it's ceaseless vegetable action.

K

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Wed Apr 05, 2006 8:21 am
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Post Re: the world wide web
kristin wrote:
isn't it interesting that we interact here together on the WORLD WIDE WEB ?


K


Yes for sure. As you know the internet was conceived at the beiginning to have sets of computers working together all around the world so that in case of partial destruction (due to military deeds for instance or the explosion of a nuclear plant) the system could go on.

We have the same symbolic dimension...

Roger

_________________
Fire over wood:
THE IMAGE of THE CAULDRON.
Thus the superior man consolidates his fate By making his position correct.
The fate of fire depends on wood; as long as there is wood below, the fire burns above. It is the same in human life; there is in man likewise a fate that lends power to his life. And if he succeeds in assigning the right place to life and to fate, thus bringing the two into harmony, he puts his fate on a firm footing.

I Ching #50


Wed Apr 05, 2006 8:58 am
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Post Mushroom synchronicity...
Last saturday afternoon I was amazed to find two morels in my garden. This is not a very common event, I can tell you.

Image

I immediately decided to phone a friend who is in a bad situation at the moment and that I am helping on the inner side. The first thing he told me, before I could begin to talk, is that he had just found two dozens morels in his own garden. Then he confirmed what I had begun to feel, he was better and taking over...

A detail I'd like to add is that I had decided to cook a sauce with morels for the evening meal and that I had bought a preseve the day before...

The sauce happened to be very good...

:lol: 8)

Roger

_________________
Fire over wood:
THE IMAGE of THE CAULDRON.
Thus the superior man consolidates his fate By making his position correct.
The fate of fire depends on wood; as long as there is wood below, the fire burns above. It is the same in human life; there is in man likewise a fate that lends power to his life. And if he succeeds in assigning the right place to life and to fate, thus bringing the two into harmony, he puts his fate on a firm footing.

I Ching #50


Wed Apr 05, 2006 12:15 pm
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Post Re: E.T. MUSHROOM: PHONE HOME!
Sorry, when I become a little theoretical. We have already discussed once Terence McKenna in the cgjungpage/forum, but I did not know this very interesting passage. Thus, I'd like to translate it a little into my view.

I guess the difficult aspect of all this is the new spacetime concept of the unus mundus, which is not at all familiar to most people. As long as they do however not know an alternative concept of spacetime, also the vision/auditions and dreams talk in the language of the consciousness of the modern "mystic". Thus, also the "ETs" will talk of far away stars they come from, and so on. Only when our consciousness has integrated the new concept of space and time, also tho "ETs" can speak this language.

This is insofar a difficulty, as researchers take all these statements as concrete reality and cannot see that the "ETs" can only use our terms, even when they talk of something completely different. Thus we must further have in mind that we should take their terms symbolically.

Christopher Ross wrote:
[i]"I am old, older than thought in your species, which is itself fifty times older than your history. Though I have been on earth for ages I am from the stars. My home is no one planet, for many worlds scattered through the shining disc of the galaxy have conditions which allow my spores an opportunity for life. The mushroom which you see is the part of my body given to sex thrills and sun bathing, my true body is a fine network of fibers growing through the soil. These networks may cover acres and may have far more connections than the number in a human brain.


Ok. First the "Mushroom ET" tells us that he is very old. However, in the unus mundus there is not time and no space, or said in a different way: Eternity and the now are the same, and also a point an the whole universe are the same. Thus, if the "ETs" tell us that they are fifty times older than our history we cannot take this literally. Symbolically it means that they come out of eternity. Since the space is a pointspace/allspace, also the statements about their travel we should look at symbolically.

Quote:
My mycelial network is nearly immortal--only the sudden toxification of a planet or the explosion of it's parent star can wipe me out. By means impossible to explain because of certain misconceptions in your model of reality all my mycelial networks in the galaxy are in hyperlight communication through space and time.


If we postulate that a point in this space is the same as the whole universe, "network" means here exactly this characteristic of the pointspace/allspace. It means that something that happens in one point of the universe, has happened everywhere. It happens in a way which physics calls "nonlocal". "Nonlocal" transmission is the same as supraluminosity (or "hyperlight communication.") Since in the last 50 years or so we have in fact developed such terms about supraluminosity, also the "ETs" can communicate with their help with us. They seem however not yet to know the concept of pointspace/allspace, thus they use the terms "hyperspace" etc. However, in all these terms there is yet a metric component, since up until today no one has already developed the concept of pointspace = allspace, i.e., a space in which there is not metric (means: one cannot measure it with physical means).

[Here we come back to the dimensionless world I talked about in the “11:11 thread”, the world of the fine structure constant, which is the content of Pauli’s death synchronicity. See http://unus-mundus.fr/viewtopic ... light=#224 ]

The "ETs" can however already correct us and tell us that there are some misconceptions in our worldview. They cannot express this with the help of physical or philosophical ideas, but -- as I have seen in other visions/auditions -- they express a negative feeling about our conceptions, i.e., they say "wrong", i.e. use a qualitative statement, but cannot tell us what exactly in our physical worldview is wrong.

Quote:
The mycelial body is as fragile as a spider's web but the collective hypermind and memory is a vast historical archive of the career of evolving intelligence on many worlds in our spiral star swarm. Space, you see, is a vast ocean to those hardy life forms that have the ability to reproduce from spores, for spores are covered with the hardest organic substance known.


Here the “network” comes in. If the point is the same as the whole universe, we can, in our metric language (i.e a language which uses terms as distance and so on) speak of a network, similar to an electrical network or the internet. The difference is however the supraluminosity of the transmission of the “message”. Here we have the concept of Carl Jung’s synchronicity: A new idea enters the brain of one human, and then it has happened everywhere, the “point A” situation. However, this network is also material like the mycelial body. Thus, also in this “body of the universe” there can happen such “transmissions”, however not of a spiritual/psychic “substance”, but of a corporeal, or better: of a subtle body like (what I call matter-psyche). Thus, if somewhere in the universe – and as much as I know this can only happen here, on our earth, in human beings – something changes in the “subtle body” of an individual, also the “subtle body” of the whole universe has changed.

“Reproducing from spores” is an expression I don’t yet understand. It means that spores have a special way of reproducing, not like plants and not like animals and humans. Does Chris or Kristin know more about the difference? It seems that the “ETs” see here the decisive difference, cannot however express this fact in a different way, since they do not have the knowledge of how such a difference could look like.

If I conclude with the help of my research results, I could imagine that “reproducing from spores” could mean the same as incarnation with the help of “singular acausal quantum leaps”. But why should spores be equalized with “acausal quantum leaps”? I don’t know. And why are they "the hardest organic substance"?

Quote:
Across the aeons of time and space drift many spore forming life-forms in suspended animation for millions of years until contact is made with a suitable environment.


However, here comes a new idea. The life-forms are only potential (suspended), “until contact is made with a suitable environment”. This could also be a symbolic expression for the contact with the Eros consciousness, which observes such “reproducing acts of spores” = singular acausal quantum leaps. By this contact with a "suitable environment", ie the Eros ego in its meditative/imaginative state, the incarnation can happen.

Very interesting how one can try to translate the language of the “ETs” into a language based on my concept, I must say. Such a work is very similar to the interpretation of a collective, i.e. archetypal dream.

It's really a pity that John Mack died shortly after we got in contact since he liked to discuss my ideas on the background of his results.

_________________
'Here stands the mean uncomely stone,
Tis very cheap in price!
The more it is despised by fools,
The more loved by the wise.'
(C.G. Jung, MDR, p. 253)
WebSite: http://www.paulijungunusmundus.eu


Wed Apr 05, 2006 4:39 pm
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Post 
Hey Roger - your post only proves my belief that ALL mushrooms are 'magic' ... :wink:


O.K. : I have found a site with a very detailed description of fungal reproduction (see link below). It is true that asexual reproduction is its' main distinguishing motif, HOWEVER, (quoting now from this website): "sexual reproduction introduces the possibility of variation into a population and this is why most fungi have a sexual phase[my emphasis]". For more information, see:


http://www-micro.msb.le.ac.uk/224/myc2.html



What we can glean from this information for our figurative discussion could be interesting.

I am sure, Remo, it IS true that the translation of 'ET language' into a language based on your concept of the Eros ego is very much like the process of interpreting/translating collective archtypal dream material. I would like to give what you say above more thought. The pointspace/allspace model is definately what the 'network' is really all about. And I do believe, for instance, that "acts of spore reproduction" are likely similar to 'singular acausal quantum leaps', as you conjecture. The motif of the virgin birth comes to mind here..


best, kristin

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Wed Apr 05, 2006 7:26 pm
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Post Re: E.T. MUSHROOM: PHONE HOME!
Christopher Ross wrote:
Few such species are minded, only myself and my recently evolved near relatives have achieved the hyper-communication mode and memory capacity that makes us leading members in the community of galactic intelligence. How the hyper-communication mode operates is a secret which will not be lightly given to humans.


Here the "ET" seems to speak of a differentiation of "consciousness" between the species of the unus mundus. On the background of what Carl Jung reflects upon in chapter On Life After Death of MDR, I could imagine that this means that there are species that have followed their individuation process in a more complete way during this life than others, and now they are able to have a closer relationship with the living. The "hyper-communication" is a "secret", since the Logos consciousness cannot with all its intelligence find out how this works. Only the Eros consciousness, the "secret alter ego", is able to do so.

Quote:
But the means should be obvious: it is the occurence of psilocybin and psilocin in the biosynthetic pathways of my living body that opens for me and my symbiots the vision screens to many worlds. You as an individual and Homo sapiens as a species are on the brink of the formation of a symbiotic relationship with my genetic material that will eventually carry humanity and earth into the galactic mainstream of the higher civilizations.

Since it is not easy for you to recognize other varieties of intelligence around you, your most advanced theories of politics and society have advanced only as far as the notion of collectivism. But beyond the cohesion of the members of a species into a single social organism there lie richer and even more baroque evolutionary possibilities. Symbiosis is one of these. Symbiosis is a relation of mutual dependence and positive benifits for both species involved.


Two new insights: First it seems that it is their (subtle) body, which allows the "ETs" the communication. It is not the head brain. This would make it more understandable, why the communication between them and humans is telepathic: They communicate with the help of the belly brain, with the lower three Chakras.

Second he speaks of symbiots and of symbiosis, of a mutual dependence of humans and "ETs". This reminds me of Roger's dream of the two spiders that become one; see http://unus-mundus.fr/viewtopic.php?t=73 . Thus spider #1 in his dream is the "alter ego", the Eros ego, and spider #2 is the "ET". In the dream they in fact become one ...

The symbiosis shows also that the relationship with the "ETs" does not work with the help of Active Imagination, ie the "distinction between the ego and the unconscious" (Carl Jung), but with synthesis, symbiosis, ie, not with the help of the Logos (analysis, distinction!) but with the help of the Eros principle (synthesis).

This insight would also back a very important result of John Mack, which shows that as soon as the abductees accept being one with the "ETs" (symbiosis; coniunctio), they loose the fear and a positive development begins.

Quote:
Symbiotic relationships between myself and civilized forms of higher animals have been established many times and in many places throughout the long ages of my development. These relationships have been mutually useful; within my memory is the knowledge of hyperlight drive ships and how to build them. I will trade this knowledge for a free ticket to new worlds around suns younger and more stable than your own.


There the "ET" speaks of a technological tool, obviously for the transportation of living bodies or (living) subtle bodies. I guessed in another thread that the idea of UFOs being transported through quantum tubes (filled with negative energy = matter-psyche) with the help of a higher technology could correspond to higher psychophysical natural laws which develop as a result of the higher negentropy produced as an effect of the Hermetic alchemical twin process (Holy Wedding; unio corporalis; coniunctio), in which spirit-psyche = physical energy with higher negentropy is produced.

Quote:
To secure an eternal existence down the long river of cosmic time, I again and again offer this agreement to higher beings and thereby have spread throughout the galaxy over the long millenia.


There the ET seems to talk about an individual eternal existence, ie an individual existence in the Beyond. Carl Jung, and especially Marie-Louise von Franz (see On Dreams and Death argued that it seems that we return into an undifferentiated collectivity in the Beyond, except we follow the individuation process, which gives us an individuality in the Beyond. My dreams seem to show the same: In the Beyond, Carl Jung, Marie-Louise von Franz and also Wolfgang Pauli seem to survive as individuals, are however incredibly curious what we "on the other side of the river" develop in this life, since only like this they can further develop and individuate in the Beyond.

Quote:
A mycelial network has no organs to move the world, no hands; but higher animals with manipulative abilities can become partners with the star knowledge within me and if they act in good faith, return both themselves and their humble mushroom teacher to the million worlds to which all citizens of our starswarm are heir."


The mycelial network as the network of the vegetative (sympathetic) nervous system in the belly of everyone? If we try to contact this network we should in fact behave as if we had "no organs to move the world, no hands." We should become "hand-lungsunfähig", ie., having no hands, ie "not having any capacity to act" (to move and to think) anymore. It is the state of the Wu Wei, of the active passiveness, in which we only observe what happens in the unus mundus (represented by one of the three lower chakras in the belly). In stercore invenitur, in the dirt of our belly we will find the lapis.

Remo

_________________
'Here stands the mean uncomely stone,
Tis very cheap in price!
The more it is despised by fools,
The more loved by the wise.'
(C.G. Jung, MDR, p. 253)
WebSite: http://www.paulijungunusmundus.eu


Wed Apr 05, 2006 7:55 pm
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Post Do spores propagate virginally?
kristin wrote:
And I do believe, for instance, that "acts of spore reproduction" are likely similar to 'singular acausal quantum leaps', as you conjecture. The motif of the virgin birth comes to mind here..


Could this be the solution? Do spores propagate virginally? If yes, this would be the parallel between the "singular quantum leap" and the spore reproduction".

Remo

Oh, sorry, Kristin. I did not read the first part of your post.

_________________
'Here stands the mean uncomely stone,
Tis very cheap in price!
The more it is despised by fools,
The more loved by the wise.'
(C.G. Jung, MDR, p. 253)
WebSite: http://www.paulijungunusmundus.eu


Wed Apr 05, 2006 8:01 pm
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Post Revolution!
I guess during the process of our discussion we have provoked a really great revolution. The mushrooms and the "singular (and acausal) radioactive decay", the virgin's birth of the world soul, the unio corporalis, the Holy Wedding, the dea abscondita containing in her womb the deus absconditus, the acausal creation and incarnation process of Hermetic alchemy come together. Biology meets archetypal psychophysics!

Remo

_________________
'Here stands the mean uncomely stone,
Tis very cheap in price!
The more it is despised by fools,
The more loved by the wise.'
(C.G. Jung, MDR, p. 253)
WebSite: http://www.paulijungunusmundus.eu


Wed Apr 05, 2006 8:12 pm
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Post Re: Revolution!
Remo Roth wrote:
I guess during the process of our discussion we have provoked a really great revolution. The mushrooms and the "singular (and acausal) radioactive decay", the virgin's birth of the world soul, the unio corporalis, the Holy Wedding, the dea abscondita containing in her womb the deus absconditus, the acausal creation and incarnation process of Hermetic alchemy come together. Biology meets archetypal psychophysics!

Remo


Bien sûr! (Of course...)

Roger

_________________
Fire over wood:
THE IMAGE of THE CAULDRON.
Thus the superior man consolidates his fate By making his position correct.
The fate of fire depends on wood; as long as there is wood below, the fire burns above. It is the same in human life; there is in man likewise a fate that lends power to his life. And if he succeeds in assigning the right place to life and to fate, thus bringing the two into harmony, he puts his fate on a firm footing.

I Ching #50


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Post Re: E.T. MUSHROOM: PHONE HOME!
Remo Roth wrote:
There the ET seems to talk about an individual eternal existence, ie an individual existence in the Beyond. Carl Jung, and especially Marie-Louise von Franz (see On Dreams and Death argued that it seems that we return into an undifferentiated collectivity in the Beyond, except we follow the individuation process, which gives us an individuality in the Beyond. My dreams seem to show the same: In the Beyond, Carl Jung, Marie-Louise von Franz and also Wolfgang Pauli seem to survive as individuals, are however incredibly curious what we "on the other side of the river" develop in this life, since only like this they can further develop and individuate in the Beyond.


Can you elaborate on this, please, Remo? Have you met these figures in your dreams? I read Jung's section on death in MDR, and he stated he encountered individuals in the Beyond that showed great interest in what was happening in his life, but when he encountered them again they forgot what he had taught them as if they didn't really care. This puzzles me. Why would the Beyond have any need for 'education' if, suppose, they share an omniscience? And why, especially, would they need to be taught if they would not remember? Were these experiences Jung had not meant to teach those on the other side, but Jung himself?

I have thought about the other side wanting to learn from our side, but if omniscience is true, which is plausible given the nature of the quantum universe, what is the need? Jung said that those who have crossed have no concept of 'events' or time for that matter. Do they simply forget that they were ever alive? I hope you can elucidate me on this matter.

Thanks,
Michael

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Wed Apr 05, 2006 8:29 pm
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Post Re: Mushroom synchronicity...
Roger Faglin wrote:
Last saturday afternoon I was amazed to find two morels in my garden. This is not a very common event, I can tell you.

I immediately decided to phone a friend who is in a bad situation at the moment and that I am helping on the inner side. The first thing he told me, before I could begin to talk, is that he had just found two dozens morels in his own garden. Then he confirmed what I had begun to feel, he was better and taking over...


What could the synchronicity tell us? First the mushrooms are involved. This seems to point to the fact that an "acausal quantum leap" was in the air. Then you, Roger, decided spontaneously (= acausal quantum leap in you) to phone your friend -- who had also "acausal quantum leaps" in his garden.

He went better. Thus, the healing inner quantum leap had happened. I'm convinced that it happened since you shared your experience of finding the morels in your garden spontaneously with your friend.

Years ago a feminine patient began to talk about her a breast tumor. I spontaneously asked her my "as if" question: Can you tell me with a sentence that begins with "This is as if ..." how this cancer looks like? She had suddenly an image: A golden hollow hemisphere. This was her cancer knot. This was the symbol liberated out of the symptom. This was the twin transformation of the spirit-psyche into matter-psyche (energy of the Beyond) with potential higher negentropy, and the transformation of the latter (as a result of my spontaneous reaction) into spirit-psyche (physical energy) with higher negentropy.

The important aspect is that I did not have -- and still do not have -- a method of asking people after the "as if" of the symptom. Suddenly, things like this come into my mind, and then I ask. A method would mean a causal provocation of the "symptom". The idea is: If I ask (by will) this and that, then the right answer comes. The Eros ego does however not behave like this. It asks in exactly the spontaneous moment when the question arises in one's mind. Or it phones in exactly the moment the idea comes into Roger's mind. This is the "Gegenteiler", the one who always does the contrary, as in Spielberg's movie Little Big Man. It is the jester, the stupid, the "fool on the hill" (my favourite song of the Beatles). I learned this behaviour very much from -- mongoloids (today down syndrom).

The night after this decisive event that helped me to understand BCI much deeper I dreamt:

Quote:
In my practice. I give back some people (perhaps 10 to 20) their diamonds. Spontaneously I associated the diamond body of Taoist alchemy, i.e. the subtle body of Hermetic alchemy.

A voice tells me: "Now you have reached the compensation, the balance, the equilibrum."


I begin to understand why!

Remo

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'Here stands the mean uncomely stone,
Tis very cheap in price!
The more it is despised by fools,
The more loved by the wise.'
(C.G. Jung, MDR, p. 253)
WebSite: http://www.paulijungunusmundus.eu


Last edited by Remo Roth on Thu Apr 06, 2006 6:45 am, edited 1 time in total.



Wed Apr 05, 2006 8:40 pm
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Post Re: Mushroom synchronicity...
Remo Roth wrote:
The important aspect is that I did not have -- and still do not have -- a method of asking people after the "as if" of the symptom. Suddenly, things like this come into my mind, and then I ask. A method would mean a causal provocation of the "symptom". The idea is: If I ask (by will) this and that, then the right answer comes. The Eros ego does however not behave like this. It asks in exactly the spontaneous moment when the question arises in one's mind. Or it phones in exactly the moment the idea comes into Roger's mind. This is the "Gegenteiler", the one who always does the contrary, as in Spielberg's movie Little Big Man. It is the jester, the stupid, the "fool on the hill" (my favourite song of the Beatles). I learned this behaviour very much from -- mongoloids (today down syndrom).

Remo


Yes, that's it.

There is no will, no constructed thinking. You just feel this is the ting (how funny , I missed the H, ting is the caldron 50, in the I ching) to do and it happens. That's the canal metaphor. The canal has no power on the flow it carries, it's function is exactly to let it flow and its destiny is to be the best canal ever. Wu wei again.

Roger

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Fire over wood:
THE IMAGE of THE CAULDRON.
Thus the superior man consolidates his fate By making his position correct.
The fate of fire depends on wood; as long as there is wood below, the fire burns above. It is the same in human life; there is in man likewise a fate that lends power to his life. And if he succeeds in assigning the right place to life and to fate, thus bringing the two into harmony, he puts his fate on a firm footing.

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Post Re: Mushroom synchronicity...
Roger Faglin wrote:
You just feel this is the ting (how funny , I missed the H, ting is the caldron 50, in the I ching) to do and it happens. That's the canal metaphor. The canal has no power on the flow it carries, it's function is exactly to let it flow and its destiny is to be the best canal ever. Wu wei again.


What a nice Freudian slip we -- not identified with the damn negativism of psychoanalysts -- interpret of course in a positive, creative way.

Remo

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'Here stands the mean uncomely stone,
Tis very cheap in price!
The more it is despised by fools,
The more loved by the wise.'
(C.G. Jung, MDR, p. 253)
WebSite: http://www.paulijungunusmundus.eu


Thu Apr 06, 2006 6:48 am
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Post wu wei
I now also understand better why I make so regularly dreams telling me my house is transparent, like directly open on harmonious countryside landscapes with only vegetal life around.

It bears the same idea of direct contact with a will-less (thought-less) nature...

Roger

_________________
Fire over wood:
THE IMAGE of THE CAULDRON.
Thus the superior man consolidates his fate By making his position correct.
The fate of fire depends on wood; as long as there is wood below, the fire burns above. It is the same in human life; there is in man likewise a fate that lends power to his life. And if he succeeds in assigning the right place to life and to fate, thus bringing the two into harmony, he puts his fate on a firm footing.

I Ching #50


Thu Apr 06, 2006 6:50 am
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Post Re: wu wei
Roger Faglin wrote:
I now also understand better why I make so regularly dreams telling me my house is transparent, like directly open on harmonious countryside landscapes with only vegetal life around.

It bears the same idea of direct contact with a will-less (thought-less) nature...

Roger


Did you know that Wolfgang Pauli as well as Carl Jung dreamt in the second half of the fifties that they should construct now "the new house" ? They were not yet able to do that.

Remo

_________________
'Here stands the mean uncomely stone,
Tis very cheap in price!
The more it is despised by fools,
The more loved by the wise.'
(C.G. Jung, MDR, p. 253)
WebSite: http://www.paulijungunusmundus.eu


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Post Re: wu wei
Remo Roth wrote:
Roger Faglin wrote:
I now also understand better why I make so regularly dreams telling me my house is transparent, like directly open on harmonious countryside landscapes with only vegetal life around.

It bears the same idea of direct contact with a will-less (thought-less) nature...

Roger


Did you know that Wolfgang Pauli as well as Carl Jung dreamt in the second half of the fifties that they should construct now "the new house" ? They were not yet able to do that.

Remo


I guess the new house has something to do with the 'New Jerusalem' at an individual level, that is to say the individual coniunctio and the birth of the infans solaris in the individual body.

Roger

_________________
Fire over wood:
THE IMAGE of THE CAULDRON.
Thus the superior man consolidates his fate By making his position correct.
The fate of fire depends on wood; as long as there is wood below, the fire burns above. It is the same in human life; there is in man likewise a fate that lends power to his life. And if he succeeds in assigning the right place to life and to fate, thus bringing the two into harmony, he puts his fate on a firm footing.

I Ching #50


Thu Apr 06, 2006 6:58 am
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Post Re: wu wei
Roger Faglin wrote:
I guess the new house has something to do with the 'New Jerusalem' at an individual level, that is to say the individual coniunctio and the birth of the infans solaris in the individual body.


Yes, it is the subtle body, the body for the Beyond. My mandala stresses the same idea.

In my thesis at the so-called C.G. Jung Institute I formulated it as follows:

Quote:
Das Neue Jerusalem, das heisst letztlich das Doppelmandala, würde dann eine Vereinigung dieses erneuerten Bewusstseins mit dem vorbewussten oder absoluten Wissen des Unbewussten bedeuten. Dieser "nachapokalyptische Zustand" wird durch folgenden Prozess erreicht: Absturz des sonnenhaften Denkens (im ersten und zweiten Kapitel beschrieben), Aufbau eines neuen, "mondhaften" Bewusstseins (drittes Kapitel), Öffnung desselben für Synchronizitätsereignisse (viertes Kapitel) und schliesslich ein Hierosgamos der beiden gegensätzlichen Prinzipien, wodurch der Zugang zum absoluten Wissen und damit letztlich zum Erlebnis des unus mundus erreicht wird.


English translation:

Quote:
The New Jerusalem means the double mandala, a union of the renewed consciousness with the preconscious or absolute knowledge of the unconscious. This "post-apocalyptic state" is reached by the following process: Drowning of the sun-like thinking (described in the first and second chapter [of my thesis]), creation of a new, "moon-like consciousness" (third chapter), opening of the latter for synchronicity events (fourth chapter), and finally the Hierosgamos between the two opposite principles. Like this the access to the preconscious knowledge and finally to the unus mundus is reached.


What I did not yet know then was the fact that the "moon-like consciousness" corresponds to the Eros consciousness, and that the latter is related (or in a symbiosis!) with the Eros Self, and that like this the connection with the subtle body and its macrocosmic complement, the world soul, is reached.

25 years after all this I see now that all these people had no other chance than to reject my thesis. Only like this the old king was once again able to hide his mortal disease. Accepting it would have undermined their power possessed standpoint of the Logos ego. The consequences one can imagine ...

Remo

_________________
'Here stands the mean uncomely stone,
Tis very cheap in price!
The more it is despised by fools,
The more loved by the wise.'
(C.G. Jung, MDR, p. 253)
WebSite: http://www.paulijungunusmundus.eu


Thu Apr 06, 2006 7:25 am
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Post the pearl and the fetus
It is very interesting following this line of thought (or, rather, 'non-thought'!).

Am back to considering the 'diamond body' (from above discussion) in this respect. Came upon a very good and clear article on Taoist Alchemy at:

http://www.peripheral.org/pages/%20alchemy.html

And I want to quote something I found there in relation to what we are discussing in this thread. It refers to the creation of the 'pearl' through the work of taoist internal alchemy, from which work, eventually, arises the 'energy body' or the 'double', the aim of the entire process.


Quote:
Essentially, energy is withdrawn to a point of a 'pearl' if you like, somewhere between the ego and the unconscious. In this position, the energies of both realms are sucked into this middle realm. Thus, both the 'external world' and the 'internal world' are depotentiated. If no energy is expended in either direction, the pearl of energy, that is, the essence of the individual life or being creating the situation, exists only unto itself. It is existentially speaking, pure potentiality. As such, it is like the fetus to use the Chinese Image, since it, like the fetus, has not defined its' essence, that is, it has not begun to expend its energy in creating an essence.


Here it is also made very clear that "Chinese alchemy acknowledges that nothing can be done without the body [italics my emphasis]". We return to a state of 'nature', as Roger describes. The creation of the fetus, the infans solaris in other words, is the recreation of a 'prenatal state' (Remo - you have called this the 'preconscious state' and I take it that these two are probably one and the same.) It is said in Chinese alchemy that "the fetus...is an incorporeal manifestation of the union of spirit and vitality". Here perhaps we have discovered the answer to the mystery of the 'new house' which Jung and Pauli long sought!?

The return to undifferentiated fetal state is said to have been achieved when the fetal heartbeat is once again activated in the practionner and can be maintained without cessation. A state of ultimate serenity is then the outcome, once and for all.

This serenity sounds like paradise. And - weirdly - it does seem to parallel somewhat our description of the mycelium, which never foolishly expends its vital essence by attempting to create anything like an 'individualized' consciousness! It is 'the Fool' archetype we achieve here for sure - self-actualized without ever self-actualizing - always 'pure potential', neither caught up in the manic validation of individuality, as in the Western paradigm, nor in the blend and merge of 'collective' identification, as in Eastern tradition (I am talking here about basic behavioural attitudes, modes of accepted or traditional human interaction which have outlived their usefulness - ).


- have a great day - over and out...
k

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Thu Apr 06, 2006 8:35 am
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Post Re: the pearl and the fetus
kristin wrote:
Here it is also made very clear that "Chinese alchemy acknowledges that nothing can be done without the body [italics my emphasis]". We return to a state of 'nature', as Roger describes. The creation of the fetus, the infans solaris in other words, is the recreation of a 'prenatal state' (Remo - you have called this the 'preconscious state' and I take it that these two are probably one and the same.)


Kristin, the term "preconscious knowledge" is Jung's, thus has to do with what I call the inner spirit-psyche (objective psychic energy). It shows clearly that Jung was not yet conscious about the fact that there is also a "preconscious body", the fetus, yes, the infans solaris, the "prenatal state", the matter-psyche. And like a pregnant woman we can only wait up until the birth. Or was there any woman, who was able to give birth to a child after three months by "doing"? No, this state is "not doing", Wu Wei.

Quote:
It is said in Chinese alchemy that "the fetus...is an incorporeal manifestation of the union of spirit and vitality". Here perhaps we have discovered the answer to the mystery of the 'new house' which Jung and Pauli long sought!?


Symbolically seen the house or the flat is where one can live one's privacy, ie the "inner aspect" of oneself. As a house it has however also a material aspect. Thus it is the inner aspect of the body, the subtle body. The fetus is indeed this subtle body. Without knowing all this I painted in my big crisis, in August 1973, the following picture:

Image

It is of course a condensation of the infans solaris and the red tincture. Since it has to do with my name (Roth = red), it is impossible to hide the painter's name, who was forced to create it out of the unus mundus.

The same phenomenon we know with synchronicites, which contain mostly very individual aspects of the experiencer. This is why it is so difficult to talk about synchronicities in public, if one is not allowed to give away the personal data, for example of a patient.

Remo

PS: One of the most astonishing aspect of this image is the fact that the eye contains exactly the four alchemical colors black, white, yellow and red, the nigredo, the albedo, the citrinitas and the rubedo. I am sure that I did not have any conscious knowledge of all this when I painted the image, since in our peasant's household there was only one book concerning symbolical material, the Bible ... And later I was a scientist without any interests in mythology and symbolism. Only in 1973 I began to be interested in them, but with alchemy I dealt with only in 1974. [I bought the original edition of Mysterium Coniunctionis (all three volumes, containing also MLvF's Aurora Consurgens) at Sylvester 1973.]

With experiences like this I began to realize what the preconscious knowledge of the collective unconscious is. I needn't believe in Jung, I know.

_________________
'Here stands the mean uncomely stone,
Tis very cheap in price!
The more it is despised by fools,
The more loved by the wise.'
(C.G. Jung, MDR, p. 253)
WebSite: http://www.paulijungunusmundus.eu


Thu Apr 06, 2006 10:41 am
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Post Re: the pearl and the fetus
kristin wrote:

This serenity sounds like paradise. And - weirdly - it does seem to parallel somewhat our description of the mycelium, which never foolishly expends its vital essence by attempting to create anything like an 'individualized' consciousness! It is 'the Fool' archetype we achieve here for sure - self-actualized without ever self-actualizing - always 'pure potential', neither caught up in the manic validation of individuality, as in the Western paradigm, nor in the blend and merge of 'collective' identification, as in Eastern tradition (I am talking here about basic behavioural attitudes, modes of accepted or traditional human interaction which have outlived their usefulness - ).

k


I guess however that it is our ordeal and responsibility as human beings to develop individual consciousness, even if there are different stages and qualities to that consciousness, each 'move' involving its lot of sufferings.

Roger

_________________
Fire over wood:
THE IMAGE of THE CAULDRON.
Thus the superior man consolidates his fate By making his position correct.
The fate of fire depends on wood; as long as there is wood below, the fire burns above. It is the same in human life; there is in man likewise a fate that lends power to his life. And if he succeeds in assigning the right place to life and to fate, thus bringing the two into harmony, he puts his fate on a firm footing.

I Ching #50


Fri Apr 07, 2006 6:42 am
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