UNUS MUNDUS

The UNUS MUNDUS forum of Psychovision (Remo F. Roth) invites discussion of theoretical and practical issues of a possible union of Carl Jung's depth psychology with quantum physical principles.
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 Co-existence of Logos and Eros? 
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Joined: Thu May 04, 2006 8:31 pm
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Post Co-existence of Logos and Eros?
To All,

I woke up this morning to an interesting dream/memory/realisation.

Is it possible that a logos ego and eros ego can exist at the same time? In my dream I was trying to bring a reconciliation between two 'brothers', one of which was the more famous of the two.(perfect description!) I was trying to reinforce 'how important it is that they work together' (I told this to the least famous brother-eros?. But the interesting aspect is they were performers; specifically: actors who sing. This brought back a memory of mine about performing. I once was an actor, and I have participated in almost all of the performing arts.

Performers, develop a double awareness or perhaps a double consciousness that function at the same time. There is the character's awareness who is involved in and really believes in world of the play,musical,song as real, and the other, the actor who watches and guides the performance; like driving a car. Another way to describe it would be: attachment and detachment. The detached aspect would be the logos?(actor) who guides. The attached aspect, the eros? (character) who feels and believes!

I was curious about your thoughts on this subject. Because I realize that I could be completely off track...but this new idea felt important to me, and I wasn't sure where to put it in the forum.

Ryan

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"Let us go then, you and I,
When the evening is spread out against the sky
Like a patient etherised upon a table;"
-T.S. Eliot: The Love Song of J. Alfred Prufrock


Thu May 18, 2006 9:48 am
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Post Re: Co-existence of Logos and Eros?
Ryan wrote:
In my dream I was trying to bring a reconciliation between two 'brothers', one of which was the more famous of the two.(perfect description!) I was trying to reinforce 'how important it is that they work together' (I told this to the least famous brother-eros?. But the interesting aspect is they were performers; specifically: actors who sing. This brought back a memory of mine about performing. I once was an actor, and I have participated in almost all of the performing arts.


Ryan

In singing a song words and melody come together -- Logos and Eros unify. Exactly what you thought as the co-existence in the dream.

Quote:
Performers, develop a double awareness or perhaps a double consciousness that function at the same time. There is the character's awareness who is involved in and really believes in world of the play,musical,song as real, and the other, the actor who watches and guides the performance; like driving a car. Another way to describe it would be: attachment and detachment. The detached aspect would be the logos?(actor) who guides. The attached aspect, the eros? (character) who feels and believes!


Perfect! You as an actor have already had this experience in your extraverted life. Now it is perhaps time to live it introvertedly. Perhaps it will be your fate to show this development to other actors.

A fact is that we cannot and should not return only to the Eros ego. If we do BCI it is always like this that the Logos ego "observes" the Eros ego (and the Eros ego the Eros Self). This is why we cannot completely merge with or dissolve in the Eros Self -- as Buddhist meditation tries to (as much as I see).

This co-existence is also what happens in the archetypal template of the conscious process, the Holy Wedding: It is a union of the feminine with the masculine. As long as the feminine is alone, it is only one part of the world soul. I call it the not yet pregnant world soul, see http://www.psychovision.ch/hknw/holy_we ... p1s1_e.htm

Remo

_________________
'Here stands the mean uncomely stone,
Tis very cheap in price!
The more it is despised by fools,
The more loved by the wise.'
(C.G. Jung, MDR, p. 253)
WebSite: http://www.paulijungunusmundus.eu


Thu May 18, 2006 10:06 am
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Remo,

This clarifies a lot for me, thankyou.

Earlier dreams have played on this theme, but I could never understand what they were getting at. Typically, the logos was not functioning correctly in relation to eros. I was forgetting the lines(words) to my part, in music, I couldn't technically perform the piece. It was as if the eros was present and ready to go, but the logos had not arrived to participate as well...(It (logos) was somewhere else I suppose, not concerned with the eros process I assume).

Final side note, as an actor it is the eros (the character in the play) that has the spontaneous reactions and life not the logos (actor). The actor literally is riding the wave of the character, just making sure it doesn't completely lose control (ie disappear like the Buddhists as you said).

Quote:
This is why we cannot completely merge with or dissolve in the Eros Self -- as Buddhist meditation tries to (as much as I see).


I am going to see if I can apply this insight.

Quote:
Now it is perhaps time to live it introvertedly.


Thank you,

Ryan

_________________
"Let us go then, you and I,
When the evening is spread out against the sky
Like a patient etherised upon a table;"
-T.S. Eliot: The Love Song of J. Alfred Prufrock


Thu May 18, 2006 10:46 am
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Post Logos and Eros
In the typology of Jung thinking is the Logos part, Eros the feeling part. [This is however not exactly how I define the Eros and the Logos ego.]

Jung tells us that it is impossible to bring together thinking with feeling. I accept this first for a thinking type, and second perhaps in extraversion. In introversion it is however absolutely possible to bring the two together.

Carl Jung's typology has certain limitations, since he sees also the typology out of the corner of the thinking/intuitive type. A feeling/intuition type would draw completely different conclusions. I began to write about this aspect of his book Psychological Types, which is for the most parts a description of his onesided typology, ie thinking/intuition. Especially chapters 2 and 5.

Remo

_________________
'Here stands the mean uncomely stone,
Tis very cheap in price!
The more it is despised by fools,
The more loved by the wise.'
(C.G. Jung, MDR, p. 253)
WebSite: http://www.paulijungunusmundus.eu


Thu May 18, 2006 11:49 am
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Remo,

Quote:
Jung tells us that it is impossible to bring together thinking with feeling. I accept this first for a thinking type, and second perhaps in extraversion. In introversion it is however absolutely possible to bring the two together.

Carl Jung's typology has certain limitations, since he sees also the typology out of the corner of the thinking/intuitive type. A feeling/intuition type would draw completely different conclusions.


I believe Jung states that 'intuition depends on the unconscious to function', but as I understand you, really we could substitute 'eros' for 'unconscious'; as you have shown me in relationship to the sun/moon conjunction. So the new phrase would read, 'intuition depends on eros to function'.

Quote:
Quote:
Also, I was wondering if you could explain the difference (If there is one) between: 'Eros consciousness' and a 'union of conscious and unconscious' as I had understood the sun/moon conjunction? I have begun reading your work on psychovision, but I still have much to read.


Yes, there is a difference. The "union of conscious and unconscious" Carl Jung talks of is the method of Active Imagination. In it one talks to the figures in the unconscious. Since talking has mostly much to do with the Logos, I guess that Active Imagination is the connection of the Logos ego with what I call the Logos aspect of the Self (= Carl Jung's Self).

In your image it would be a relationship of the little sun with the big sun, since Carl Jung's Self is sun like and not moon like. Only the Anima is moon like.

If you read Chapter 4 of my The Holy Wedding in the Internet, you will see that I propose behind the Logos Self of Jung what I call the Eros Self. It is the queen of the Hermetic alchemical opus, of the so-called unio corporalis, in which the old king enters the womb of her, dies, dissolves into atoms and like this becomes the sperm for the creation of the new king.


Perhaps this clears the way for understanding the union in both the extravered and introvered types.

Ryan

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"Let us go then, you and I,
When the evening is spread out against the sky
Like a patient etherised upon a table;"
-T.S. Eliot: The Love Song of J. Alfred Prufrock


Thu May 18, 2006 12:13 pm
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Perhaps we could take this further...

Jung was very concerned about the relationship between the 'rational' and the 'irrational'. Suppose we substitute 'eros' for 'irrational'- as you have pointed out, he always included the irrational into his rational type, ie logos. If he had reversed the process, and incorporated the 'rational'ie logos (by silencing it, quiet observation) into the 'irrational' eros perhaps he would have eventually been led to the conclusions that you have found.

Just an idea.

Ryan

_________________
"Let us go then, you and I,
When the evening is spread out against the sky
Like a patient etherised upon a table;"
-T.S. Eliot: The Love Song of J. Alfred Prufrock


Thu May 18, 2006 12:30 pm
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Post Introverted corporeal sensation and "psychotic hysteria
Ryan wrote:
Jung was very concerned about the relationship between the 'rational' and the 'irrational'. Suppose we substitute 'eros' for 'irrational'- as you have pointed out, he always included the irrational into his rational type, ie logos. If he had reversed the process, and incorporated the 'rational'ie logos (by silencing it, quiet observation) into the 'irrational' eros perhaps he would have eventually been led to the conclusions that you have found.


The trouble is that Jung defines also the feeling function as rational. I agree with him. The thinking function leads to a rational decision as an effect of logical arguments, the feeling function on the basis of giving worth. Both lead to an adjudgement and are therefore judging functions.

For Jung, the irrational functions are the sensation and intuition. They do not lead to an adjudgement, but to a perception. Thus, with the help of these definitions we see that both, the Logos ego = {thinking, sensation & intuition} as well as the Eros ego = {feeling, sensation & intuition} contain rational as well as irrational elements.

The difference to Jung is to what I relate the sensation. Jung relates it to the five outer senses. Thus, also the introverted sensation is in his definition related to the outer world. The difference between extraversion and introversion is only the habitus: The extraverted sensation type is fast, the introverted needs much time to "handle" (work up?) the perceptions.

In contrast to Jung, who did not deal with the body, I define however the introverted sensation in relation to the body. With its help we can observe a completely different aspect of the body -- the "as if."
This is IMO the very new aspect of my research and theory.

Introverted sensation in my definition is what I call the "inner aspect of the corporeal sensation." It shows in images parallel (complementary) to the "symptom"; more general complementary to the sensation percepted by the Central Nervous System. Like this it is a perception with the help of the Sympathetic (Vegetative) Nervous System.

Thus, the "really irrational" -- or perhaps the imaginary (if we parallel "rational", "irrational" and "imaginary" with its use in math) -- is this perception with the help of the Vegetative Nervous System -- in dreams mostly shown by trees, plants, flowers, wood, etc. It is what most psychiatrists call crazy. Thus, we all here in this forum are in some way crazy...

The idea of the "inner perception of the body" I had first when I read the Buddenbrooks by Thomas Mann. He was a sensation type, however as a genious writer he was able to describe his contrary, the "inner sensations" of a strange member of the B. family. The latter always sensated that his nerves on the left side of the body were too short ... Thus, he had always to walk a little bent to the left. Like this the too short nerves on the left side did not disturb him too much anymore.

Image

A psychiatrist tells you that this man is crazy; I saw that this is a typical way how introverted corporeal sensation expresses. I guess that this special sort of sensation is also the background of so-called hysteria. There were however exactly such "psychotic hysteria" as Helly Preiswerk, Carl Jung's cousin, and Sabina Spielrein, who were able to correspond like this with the Beyond. They all were (and would also today be) pathologized as psychotic hysteria ...

Remo

_________________
'Here stands the mean uncomely stone,
Tis very cheap in price!
The more it is despised by fools,
The more loved by the wise.'
(C.G. Jung, MDR, p. 253)
WebSite: http://www.paulijungunusmundus.eu


Last edited by Remo Roth on Thu May 18, 2006 2:22 pm, edited 1 time in total.



Thu May 18, 2006 1:48 pm
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Thanks so much, Ryan, for your great dream!

Remo

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'Here stands the mean uncomely stone,
Tis very cheap in price!
The more it is despised by fools,
The more loved by the wise.'
(C.G. Jung, MDR, p. 253)
WebSite: http://www.paulijungunusmundus.eu


Thu May 18, 2006 2:17 pm
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Remo,

The pleasure was mine. Thank you for the help.

Ryan

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"Let us go then, you and I,
When the evening is spread out against the sky
Like a patient etherised upon a table;"
-T.S. Eliot: The Love Song of J. Alfred Prufrock


Thu May 18, 2006 2:24 pm
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Post The imaginary Vegetative Nervous System
Quote:
Thus, the "really irrational" -- or perhaps the imaginary (if we parallel "rational", "irrational" and "imaginary" with its use in math) -- is this perception with the help of the Vegetative Nervous System -- in dreams mostly shown by trees, plants, flowers, wood, etc. It is what most psychiatrists call crazy. Thus, we all here in this forum are in some way crazy...


Sorry, if I perseverate a little...

I guess that the comparision with math is accurate and decisive. For the description of the wave function, the potental reality in the Beyond, one needs imaginary numbers. They are really weird since no one can imagine what they are. Rational and irrational numbers one can understand, but not imaginary.

[Imaginary numbers always contain a term which is the root of (-1). The root of # 1 is 1, this is obvious. But the root of (-1)? No one knows what this is, but math an physics can calculate with this imaginary number. When a quantum leap happens, the imaginary wave function collapses and a non-imaginary particle is created.]

If we regard the Sympathetic or Vegetative Nervous System as the imaginary realm, ie the Beyond (or at least the "worm hole" to the Beyond), the psychophysical wave function, then we can say: If we observe an "inner quantum leap" in the VNS, the imaginary situation has become real, exactly as in the physical quantum leap.

Like this the inclusion of the "imaginary" Vegetative Nervous System or more exactly the observation of quantum leaps in it becomes in fact more than Carl Jung's Typology of the Consciousness. It is some sort of a tertium non datur, the excluded third besides or perhaps beyond the rational and the irrational functions of his typology (parallel to the rational and the irrational numbers of math).

One of the most important dreams of Pauli was however about the "ring i", i being the imaginary unity. Perhaps we can later once talk about this dream.

Remo

Image

_________________
'Here stands the mean uncomely stone,
Tis very cheap in price!
The more it is despised by fools,
The more loved by the wise.'
(C.G. Jung, MDR, p. 253)
WebSite: http://www.paulijungunusmundus.eu


Thu May 18, 2006 3:20 pm
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Post Learning Math
Remo,

Can you or anyone else recommend a starting point to learn about math, or even the math involved in physics?
I was always very good at math, but I haven't studied it for 15 years! I really would like to be involved in these deeper aspects of the Unus Mundus, but as of now I can only 'imagine' how it relates.

Ryan

ps: Could you discuss this 'i ring' more?

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Like a patient etherised upon a table;"
-T.S. Eliot: The Love Song of J. Alfred Prufrock


Fri May 19, 2006 9:14 am
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I said:

Quote:
Suppose we substitute 'eros' for 'irrational'


I see now that my thinking was shoddy on that one. I was using the 'moon' to link the two ideas.

Remo said:

Quote:
I define however the introverted sensation in relation to the body. With its help we can observe a completely different aspect of the body -- the "as if." This is IMO the very new aspect of my research and theory.


This is what has led me on my personal search to include the body. The past few years, my body has been 'waking up'. New sensations and energies have been catching my attention, and I wasn't sure why. Thus I have been looking in different directions for answers.

also:

Quote:
Like this the inclusion of the "imaginary" Vegetative Nervous System or more exactly the observation of quantum leaps in it becomes in fact more than Carl Jung's Typology of the Consciousness. It is some sort of a tertium non datur, the excluded third besides or perhaps beyond the rational and the irrational functions of his typology (parallel to the rational and the irrational numbers of math).


Do I understand correctly that the irrational (not limited to typology) is the result of the 'inner quantum leap' occuring, manifesting from the imaginary within? And then syncronicities would be a continuation of the process but on the outside?

Ryan

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"Let us go then, you and I,
When the evening is spread out against the sky
Like a patient etherised upon a table;"
-T.S. Eliot: The Love Song of J. Alfred Prufrock


Fri May 19, 2006 10:43 am
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Post Math Book(s)
Hi Ryan,

Thanks for posting your picture BTW - it is such a joy to be able to "see" those being interacted with.

You seem drawn to understand i - the square root of -1 amongst other things. I found the book titled An Imaginary Tale THE STORY OF √-1 by Paul J. Nahin to be very readable - not quite for the lay person but somewhat accessable to a lay person. For me the most telling comment in the book occcurs on page 47 "the geometrical manifestation of imaginary numbers is vertical movement in the plane". I took that psychologically speaking to mean when we interact with the Beyond we move out of the earthly plane of reality and real numbers and into imaginary numbers. Further a simple translation in the vertical direction can move the imaginary numbers into the realm of real numbers. I guess this kind of manifestation is akin to the movenment of the head into the belly (from reality into imaginary) and then to help the yin energy of the belly rise to the heart chakra and thus back towards incarnation into reality. Our subtle body, the psychophysical body is the intermediate place where these translations in the vertical direction can take place it seems to me. You can order this from Amazon.com.

I would like to hold up the message in the Atomic Bomb dream - that the church group did not have to know about physics, to help build the anti-bomb. This is for me an important comment by the unconscious.

Gregory


Fri May 19, 2006 3:53 pm
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Thank you Gregory,

And yes I agree that it is wonderful to see the people we relate to. Thank you for the book suggestion. I agree, that a person need not know about physics, but all the same, perhaps there is a deeper understanding to be had by doing it. I find the vertical aspect interesting. Look at the letter: ' i ' is it not a 'human'? And which is the vertical aspect? I remember a dream of mine, which I need to look at to see if it is relevant, but the vertical aspect of what I would call a 'geometric' figure was highlighted as the most important part to be noticed. (I'll look for it, later).

Ryan

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"Let us go then, you and I,
When the evening is spread out against the sky
Like a patient etherised upon a table;"
-T.S. Eliot: The Love Song of J. Alfred Prufrock


Fri May 19, 2006 7:22 pm
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Post 
Here is some interesting math related stuff you might want to peruse from Peter Collins

Home page:

http://indigo.ie/~peter/integral.html

summary of his holistic math:


http://www.integralworld.net/index.html?collins4.html

SEE ESPECIALLY:

Relation of conclusions from math model to Jung's typology, identifying "missing ('mystical') types":


http://www.integralworld.net/index.html?collins5.html


Last edited by Tom on Fri May 19, 2006 8:59 pm, edited 1 time in total.



Fri May 19, 2006 8:40 pm
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Thank you Tom,

It looks interesting, I'm going to look at them now!

Ryan

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"Let us go then, you and I,
When the evening is spread out against the sky
Like a patient etherised upon a table;"
-T.S. Eliot: The Love Song of J. Alfred Prufrock


Fri May 19, 2006 8:51 pm
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Post 
Note in particular this aspect of the "missing mystical type":

"The third letter on the Myers-Briggs defines one as either a T (thinking) or F (feeling) type. However the mystical is primarily motivated by volition (i.e. will) which again provides the means of harmonising the secondary aspects of thinking and feeling. "

from :

http://www.integralworld.net/index.html?collins5.html

will or perhaps suspension of will ?


Fri May 19, 2006 9:28 pm
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Post Language, Emotion, and Music
I would like to make a quick comment about language before I return to the mathematical aspects.

In this forum, it is of course recognized that language is an aspect of logos or possibly even a symptom of; such as in my case!

However in the language of Shakespeare (poetry, song, communication) there is what I would call an attempt to unite logos and eros. Everything is exteriorized. Nothing is hidden. What the character says is exactly what he is thinking and feeling (though I realize it is an attempt to describe what is being felt, not the feeling itself) Further, Shakespeare uses rhythm as a tool to express the emotion to an even higher degree. As many know iambic pentameter, which he used, is the rhythm of the heart. lub-dub, lub-dub, lub-dub. Many believe he did this on purpose, because when the rhythm of the heart falters or changes, there is a correspondence in the emotions as well. Not only rhythm, he also used the words themselves. Certain words 'feel' a specific way in the mouth, which too correspond to a sensation or perhaps a type of emotion. I would even suggest that consonants=logos and vowels=eros. I feel perhaps this is why Jung felt German was a 'thinking' culture and France a 'feeling' culture. But I don't know for sure. Vowels tend to be 'soft' while consonants 'hard'. This can be used to one's advantage when speaking.

After this time, poetry began to fade, and a new language crept into the theatre with Ibsen and Chekov. Realism. The new language began to focus on the fact people did not say what they mean, or express themselves openly or directly, but that the words so to speak 'clothed' the intention or emotion behind them, this is refered to as sub-text. What is below the words. There are a million ways to say 'hello', depending on your mood, your pleasure or displeasure at seeing someone, or even perhap what you want or don't want from the person you are speaking to. So here we see a clear split: words do not necessarily mean what they are suppose to. Words to a greater or lesser degree are losing their meaning...the meaning is in the context, the expression of the word, body language, even the expression on one's face. We sense words have lost importance.

This brings us to now. Now music seemings to be replacing words or adding/giving life to words. In dreams, in rituals, it seems music, the melody which has been pointed out by Remo to be 'eros' is coming back trying to, in some sense, recapture our attention and make words subservient to emotion. Or even in service to. I had a dream in which an African song was sung as a manner of healing (there are lots of vowels in African languages).

In many ways we all know words to be 'hollow' and I believe music is there to fill the void or emptiness. To day film and Tv is The medium of the current generation. Theaters have lost importance. We see, but we do not hear the words anymore. In films and shows, it is music which 'tells' the person what to feel. Soundtracks sell today better than ever before, and film composers are as important as the actors, because they are in some sense the emotion of the movie. A movie script is quite ridiculous. Empty words that have no meaning.

Perhaps not all is lost. Perhaps music is coming to reconnect us to what is inside. I believe the I-Ching discusses the importance of music in rituals for the dead; our ancestors, to solemnify the act. But as long as the music is as insensitive as we are, it will never help. This requires a musical education that doesn't try intellectualize emotion, nor drown in it. In other words it must become 'articulate' like an artist's hands, or the body of a dancer.

Now my final note. The relationship between music and math is well known. Music too has effects in 'matter' and can create geometric shapes through the rhythm. In the Kabbalah and other mystic systems words have been reduced to numbers to find hidden depths, connections. Perhaps in the math we may find yet another connection between words and music that can reinforce the bond between logos and eros. Just a thought.

Ryan

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"Let us go then, you and I,
When the evening is spread out against the sky
Like a patient etherised upon a table;"
-T.S. Eliot: The Love Song of J. Alfred Prufrock


Sat May 20, 2006 8:43 pm
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Post music to "soothe the savage breast"...
Hi Ryan -

What an apt disccusion! I agree with your speculations about the beneficial effects of poetic meter (and other poetic effects) in the work of both Shakespeare and others. Of course, the fact that 'cleverness with words' has won out in our culture over the magnificent use of clever turns of phrase suffused also throughout with abundant depth of feeling and well-articulated emotional insights, as you rightly note in regard to Shakespeares achievements, says a lot about where we have arrived culturally today. Though we have achieved some understanding that words are only 'words' after all, the price we seem to have paid in increasing emotional distance from one another, our difficulty with intimacy, our neurotic disengagement from one another (as opposed to a healthy ability to merely 'detach' when necessary) has been a deleterious side-effect of this development. People don't seem to be able to maintain real connection, as we have discussed elsewhere, but instead lapse into high 'drama' (how ironic!) - the cover-up for real emotion. As a culture, mostly Western, we just cannot seem to 'decompress' from the post-modern 'high' brought on by overstimulation, which seems to me the exact outcome of a thinking function -Logos consciousness- gone berserk.

With all of this in mind, eventually some in our culture begin to seek a 'thing' or method which can help to lend us/get us in touch with that very 'feeling component' that we have so long repressed. We go on our vision quest for an alternative to this frenetic existence. And here many naturally find that music soothes the soul like nothing else can. Music is definately some kind of 'glue' which has the capacity to help us to merge, or to learn to 'merge'. It is a medium or a bridge between two states - the Logos and the Eros - and can take one 'into' contemplation faster than many other methods combined. However, as you make mention above, the 'kind' of music being listened to is really quite important in this respect. Quoting you now:

Quote:
As long as the music is as insensitive as we are, it will never help


I agree. The difficulty seems to lie in the fact that each person has this threshold of understanding (or rather, on our forum discussion, disengagement from 'understanding'!) to reach before he/she will begin to listen to the type of music which is truly supportive of a receptive 'state of self'. Instead, many believe they are finding support in certain kinds of music, where all they may be achieving (unconsiously of course) is just another layer of stimulation to emote with/over. Like adding oil to a fire some are addicted to sentiment which just breeds more disruption. The original 'wound', under such adverse conditions as we find in this hepped-up world, can never be healed. Such is our predicament. As with anything here on earth, there are all kinds of levels of 'listening'. As long as there is over-attachment/engagement to the things of Logos consciousness, the urge to connect on another level of existence will be overshadowed by an urge for more 'stimulation', be it ever so well-meaning (ie. gooey love songs which reiterate the same old projections, the hard and overly-sexed up sound and lingo of so many music genres of today and so on..).


More and more I put away the music I used to listen to in the past. The same goes for much of what I used to read and write (poetry and otherwise - poetry is still true music to me, though now only very
specific stuff, including haiku, works for me). Much of it the old material shows just how sad - heartbroken, as every wounded healer (all of us here on earth, in fact) I really was, and how I was trying to find solace in various forms that seemed 'custom-made' for the job at the time, including punk rock (I once sang in such a band - very theraputic, weirdly...).

Now I allow myself to 'discover' on the outside (when it appears for me) the kind of music that I 'hear' in the 'wu wei' stance -. It is the music of the spheres really ("as within, so without"). Such music , without words, tonal, even repetitive in the extreme at times, seems to serve to remind me of my true home. It comes into the body as a feeling of bliss, without reference to 'this world' at all, except in that it truly does evoke and sustain the feeling of connection with all the wild things of nature. In the end, the music which can truly soothe is - silence - or the sea, the wind through the trees... They say that at night in the wild desert one can hear heavenly mystical music coming from everywhere and nowhere at once. There is the music of the Unus Mundus, in truth, leaking in through the cracks of time/space, a wave of love itself.

(a very long reply - all for the good I trust - !)


Kristin

ps.) some of my favourite pieces include the work of Brian Eno, esp. "Music for Airports", "Bells", and his album entitled "On Land". I dig Harold Budd in the same respect ('The Pearl" comes to mind). Unobstructed tonal and harmonic pieces override even most of the classical music I used to love - tibetan bowls, bell pieces and so on. On another tack, I like the recent music of 'Radiohead' - "Kid A" and so on- brilliant. 'Feeling tone' seems 'key' now for me. Eastern music, without voice (except for the East Indian pieces) - always - ! - (not jazz - too much abstraction with a 'leading' linear edge or else the opposite - too aimless-on-purpose with obvious 'prowess' in musicianship - but Brazilian music, very slow and beautiful sambas etc. are so great)

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Sat May 20, 2006 11:45 pm
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Post Re: music to "soothe the savage breast"...
kristin wrote:
ps.) some of my favourite pieces include the work of Brian Eno, esp. "Music for Airports", "Bells", and his album entitled "On Land". I dig Harold Budd in the same respect ('The Pearl" comes to mind).


Kristin,

If you are into Eno & Budd, do check out "Ambient 2: The Plateau of Mirror".

Image

And, are you familiar with the works of British musician Bill Nelson?
Known primarily as guitar virtuoso frontman for the progessive rock band Be Bop Deluxe in the '70s, Nelson has collaborated with Harold Budd on "By the Dawn's Early Light" and "Three White Roses and a Budd", and have done live performances together. He has also worked with Brian Eno's brother, Roger, on "The Familiar", and two Channel Light Vessel albums, "Automatic" and "Excellent Spirits".
Nelson is heavily inspired by dreams and many of his albums express Gnostic and Alchemical themes and imagery.

I highly recommend the two disk instrumental album, "Chance Encounters in the Garden of Lights"
Image
It is out of print but shows up regularly on eBay or in used or cut-out bins.

Chris


Sun May 21, 2006 7:12 am
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Post thanks!
Thanks alot for the heads up, Chris.

I know Bill Nelson but I don't own any of his stuff. I listened to him alot back in the day (maybe one album over and over? it belonged to my then partner), but oddly haven't gone ahead and bought any of my own - a definate oversight obviously, as I don't know all of his work by any means. I do have 'Plateau of Mirror', which is cool. Also Eno's soundtrack for movies - eerie (have you heard it?)!
"Chance Encounters in the Garden of Lights' sounds exactly like something I'd love - I'll look for it. Thanks very much for the interesting info, as ever (as with the alchemic 'plant' books - still haven't managed to buy the great 'tree' book you recommended - am into the gardening season with a vengeance so reading seems to have disappeared for the moment, but that'll shift again - better late than never for pursuing good things, eh?!)

Kristin

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Sun May 21, 2006 7:42 am
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Post 
I am not a mathematician, so I can't make a deeper study of this, but I thought it was interesting.

From Tom's post:
Quote:
Here is some interesting math related stuff you might want to peruse from Peter Collins

Home page:

http://indigo.ie/~peter/integral.html

summary of his holistic math:


Peter Collins says in the introduction:

Quote:
Holistic Mathematics provides an exciting new way of looking at reality which is basically very simple. We will see again and again that three fundamental polar relationships apply to all dynamic relationships. In each case these can be given both an asymmetrical (linear) interpretation (suited to the differentiated aspect of reality) and a symmetrical (circular) interpretation (directly suited to the integrated aspect). So briefly we have the horizontal poles of external and internal (objective and subjective); vertical poles of whole and part (qualitative and quantitative); and diagonal poles of form and emptiness (actual and potential). Remarkably, these poles have an original holistic mathematical interpretation which encapsulate - in dynamic manner - the most fundamental notions of number. In dynamic mathematical terms the horizontal poles are - in relative terms - positive and negative (with respect to each other); the vertical poles are real and imaginary and the diagonal poles finite and infinite (with respect to each other). These polar directions (horizontal, vertical and diagonal) in turn are derived from a simple circular number system (represented geometrically by the basic roots of unity). So quite literally, reality - at all levels - can be mathematically expressed - in dynamic fashion - as a reduced expression of unity!


Related a Dream of Mine from Sept. 21, 2004

I was in an area, that was open, but set up like a party or a restaurant, with movie? I catch sight of Carl Jung, who had long, kind of wet blondish hair, with a big burly 19th century moustache. He reminded me of a 'materialist' (Industrial Revolution). He was going on a trip? To receive an award? For work he did or discovered on Body Language, I then see a man sitting on the ground with his hands supporting himself on the ground behind him, his knees bent, and his head tilted back looking up at the sky, but with eyes closed. Adopting the position women take when going into labor, as if giving birth. He was going to a place in Siberia? Central North Russia, which on the map (in the sky?) it was circled as if several times by a pen.

Next thing I know I am standing next to Carl Jung and he is explaining to me a symbol which really can only be rendered in 3D: it is a 3 lined pyramid, but only consisting of the three exterior lines, forming as it were a tripod, but there is a fourth that runs from top to bottom above the tripod down to its bottom, the total length of this central axis or line is about twice the height of the pyramid. Jung explains to me that each of the pyramid legs is something different, one is sight, the other hearing, the third is touch, but the fourth central axis/line is breath. And this one, it seems is the most important. End of Dream. (I eliminated the personal aspects as best I could and left what I thought was the relevant information)

My first thoughts since learning of Remo's work was that his hair was wet from the 'dew'. The hair is blonde because of the his logos/logos self? The materialist aspect, perhaps is showing or a referring to matter or an investigation of it.

Applying the mathematicians ideas to this image, in conjunction with Remo's work we see that 'senses' connect in finite space, but extend independently into infinite space. As well, 'breath' or perhaps 'spirit' as Jung would say connects us to the finite 'real'exterior world and above (the joined three lines of the tripod), but can be extendend down into the 'below' 'imaginary' relationship to infinity. Where Remo would say, the old king must die, and be re-born as the solar infant.

If anyone could clarify this more, I would greatly appreciate it.

Ryan

Ps I want to include Gregory's insight that began my thinking of this dream:

Quote:
For me the most telling comment in the book occcurs on page 47 "the geometrical manifestation of imaginary numbers is vertical movement in the plane". I took that psychologically speaking to mean when we interact with the Beyond we move out of the earthly plane of reality and real numbers and into imaginary numbers. Further a simple translation in the vertical direction can move the imaginary numbers into the realm of real numbers. I guess this kind of manifestation is akin to the movenment of the head into the belly (from reality into imaginary) and then to help the yin energy of the belly rise to the heart chakra and thus back towards incarnation into reality. Our subtle body, the psychophysical body is the intermediate place where these translations in the vertical direction can take place it seems to me.


Thank you Tom and Gregory

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When the evening is spread out against the sky
Like a patient etherised upon a table;"
-T.S. Eliot: The Love Song of J. Alfred Prufrock


Mon May 22, 2006 1:57 pm
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Post Re: Language, Emotion, and Music
Eduard


Last edited by Eduard Klarer on Wed Feb 23, 2011 10:22 am, edited 1 time in total.



Mon May 22, 2006 4:52 pm
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Post Re: Language, Emotion, and Music
Eduard Klarer wrote:
Where we have arrived culturally today . . . . . gone berserk


Yesterday I went to a concert, since they gave a "Mozartfest." All the time just Mozart, Mozart, Mozart.

The very reason why I went to this concert was the concert for clarinet they played. Listen to the second movement, the Adagio -- and then you know what "sphere music" is, and why Mozart's music is divine ...

What a difference to the above mentioned contest.

Remo

PS: This does not mean that I only adore classical music. I am also a Jazz fan, and a fan of world music. I guess I feel if music has something to tell us or not. This is the criterion. And it is a judgement of the feeling function: one knows if a piece is true or not, good or bad -- according to Carl Jung as well a rational decision as the one found with the help of the thinking function.

But how many people can realize this important insight of Carl Jung?

_________________
'Here stands the mean uncomely stone,
Tis very cheap in price!
The more it is despised by fools,
The more loved by the wise.'
(C.G. Jung, MDR, p. 253)
WebSite: http://www.paulijungunusmundus.eu


Mon May 22, 2006 8:54 pm
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Post 
Explaining why we like a piece of music is extremely difficult. Understanding why others like their 'type' of music is even more difficult.
In regards to Eduard's post, I can't claim to understand why so many countries voted for 'Finland', but I do feel we like music for our own reasons, or perhaps certain music calls to us because it is in a sense a representation of our 'inner composition'. But if music is in some sense our inner composition, it is also true that we evolve, old forms no longer satisfy, and we continue the search for what 'moves' us. Like this, I suppose, we have to hope (and wait) for the 'collective' to discover that the violent no longer 'satisfies'. In the meantime, I guess we have to turn inward and hear 'our' songs within (and through the process of radiation?) maybe this will have a harmonious effect in the world.

Ryan

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"Let us go then, you and I,
When the evening is spread out against the sky
Like a patient etherised upon a table;"
-T.S. Eliot: The Love Song of J. Alfred Prufrock


Tue May 23, 2006 9:52 am
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Post Demons
Eduard,

I recently purchased MLvF's Number and Time, though I haven't really read it yet (it looks difficult), but I occasionally flip through the pages to see what captures my eye. Today, this is what I found (I appologize for its length):

Quote:
If one observes bubbles floating on a liquid it can often be noticed that a larger and a smaller one become reciprocally drawn to each other. The smaller, as if simultaneously attracted and repelled, circles around the larger one. Then it suddenly rushes toward the larger one and unites with it into one. In the same way the ego complex at the center of our consciousness seems to revolve in a half-attracted, half-timorous and fearful state around the Self's greater inner center. The moment of death forms the decisive shock, and the longed-for coniunctio experience of both worlds, as the ego plunges into the inner monad and unites with it. When and individual consciously participates in the individuation process, and thereby prepares himself for this moment by exerting himself to experience it consciously as he can, he will succeed in experiencing the ego's transposition into the Self knowiingly. But when he remains, as it were, hemmed in by floating psychic contents which are autonomous and unintegrated, consciousness becomes deflected and slips into a state of unconsciousness, which the ancient texts symbolized as being imprisoned by underworld demons. Then after death the deceased must set out on the long journey to the Self before he can attain peace and eternal life.


From Chapter 14 pg. 281 English Edition

The Bold text is the current state of Europe and the World, in relationship to the 'Eurovision' winners(who is winning?-the demons obviously!).

Ryan

_________________
"Let us go then, you and I,
When the evening is spread out against the sky
Like a patient etherised upon a table;"
-T.S. Eliot: The Love Song of J. Alfred Prufrock


Tue May 23, 2006 10:26 am
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Ryan

Seems as if you are reading synchronistically ...

I learned during my life that this is a very important way to "collect" the things if one has a creative task. It is like the way of the working of an artist, for example the Jazz musician who improvises.

Today, I do almost never read books intentionally anymore. They come into my mind exactly in the moment they like. Or as an association to some subject I am working on.

Remo

_________________
'Here stands the mean uncomely stone,
Tis very cheap in price!
The more it is despised by fools,
The more loved by the wise.'
(C.G. Jung, MDR, p. 253)
WebSite: http://www.paulijungunusmundus.eu


Tue May 23, 2006 10:56 am
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Now if I could only figure out what that pesky task is, that has been eluding me for so long!

Ryan :lol:

_________________
"Let us go then, you and I,
When the evening is spread out against the sky
Like a patient etherised upon a table;"
-T.S. Eliot: The Love Song of J. Alfred Prufrock


Tue May 23, 2006 11:14 am
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Ryan wrote:
Related a Dream of Mine from Sept. 21, 2004

I was in an area, that was open, but set up like a party or a restaurant, with movie? I catch sight of Carl Jung, who had long, kind of wet blondish hair, with a big burly 19th century moustache ... etc.


Ryan

For a really creative interpretation of your dream one would need spontaneous associations. Instead you think about the dream, and experience shows that like this the real meaning of it cannot be extracted.

Thus you should deal with your dream in the way of the association test of Carl Jung. Select with the help of the feeling function those terms you feel most. Write them onto a sheet of paper and then try to find out what the first idea is that comes into your mind (A good means is to speak the term loudly). However, this idea should not have anything to do with the dream; like this you "jump out" of the dream and "amplify" its meaning in the real sense of the term. This amplification helps you to find the meaning of the dream. If you wish you can also post these associations in the forum. I showed once how this works in http://unus-mundus.fr/viewtopic ... light=#186 .

Remo

_________________
'Here stands the mean uncomely stone,
Tis very cheap in price!
The more it is despised by fools,
The more loved by the wise.'
(C.G. Jung, MDR, p. 253)
WebSite: http://www.paulijungunusmundus.eu


Tue May 23, 2006 11:33 am
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Post Associations
Remo,

First, Thank you for the help with understanding how to make associations.

Hear they are:

Party- Busy (Too much meaningless movement), Chaos (no relationship
to anything), Swarming people(like bees), chatter (meaningless
conversation), fake smiles (politeness), drinks(You drink without being thirsty, because it is there), waste of time

Restaurant- horrible profession (in forced contact with rude people,
ungrateful), as customer- pleasure, food, companionship,
communion, sharing, connecting, looking the other in the eye,
deep conversation- Stillness amongst the confusion.

Movie- excitement, new possibilities of what could happen, dreaming
while awake, messages, wonder/awe (like a child), alone/not
alone and content in the darkness.

Carl Jung- idol, flawed, Genius, role-model, I am Grateful for all he has done, I honor him, in-debted to him for saving me, giving me
new life, something to believe in, self-worth.

wet- pleasure, rain, showers, bath, swimming, no cares, free.

blonde hair- Belongs to the world, fits in, no deep thoughts, happy, sunny, surfing, beach

long hair- rebel, doesn't belong, no job, rock-star, distance from others, messy

19th century moustache- manly, walrus, food stuck in hair, 'stiff upper-lip', English, Dickens (Industrial Revolution)

Industrial Revolution- Dominate the little man, crush the poor and weak and sick, man is a slave to the economy, only money matters.

Trip- New Places= Exciting, Old Places= Boring/Burden, Who needs to relax? I don't. Who needs to escape? I don't. Anxiety about what could go wrong.

Award- Recognized, feel appreciated, honored, that people really care for you or your work, that you stand out as an example to follow.

Body Language- Does not lie. Says everything.

Body- Sex, Art, Making Love, Beauty, Nude, Nakedness, Michaelangelo, Dance, Movement, Yoga, Restriction/Freedom.

Language- Many to learn: German, French, Russian, Italian, Greek, Hebrew, Sanskrit. Language Barrier-relying on body language when you are learning a new language (Spanish for me)

Man in Birthing Position- becoming female- receiving, opening up- letting out, letting go, letting nature take its course.

Siberia- isolation, banished, shamans, cold (feels good), snow (beautiful, magical), survival (hunting to live),
all alone.

circled in pen- the focus, the goal, the answer

map- destination, guide, the way, how to get there, you use it when you are lost.

sky- heaven, God, Open

The symbol (tripod)
a: camera, for portraits, landscapes, looking objectively
b: bird's foot- used to grab, pick up and fly off with.
c. pyramid: Egypt, death, burial, treasure(gold), mystery of life and death

Sight- I have excellent sight, I see very well, but I can’t see my future

Hearing- not as good as my vision, listening to music, inner voice, silence, I hate loud noises

Touch- by touching I learn about something, someone, touching helps me know what something is.

Breath- deep breathing, connection to center, Essential for giving birth.


I can see the clear ideas and repetitions, but how they fit together I can't. I'm some where between meaninglessness and searching for meaning. Looking for a connection, yet despising senseless relationships, wanting to be recognized by others for my work, yet no clear sense what that work is, the goal and focus? Siberia? Isolation? Somewhere in Body Language? Touch, Art, Making Love, Mystery of Life and death? Connection to one's center is essential for giving birth and giving birth to what exactly?

Ryan

_________________
"Let us go then, you and I,
When the evening is spread out against the sky
Like a patient etherised upon a table;"
-T.S. Eliot: The Love Song of J. Alfred Prufrock


Tue May 23, 2006 2:30 pm
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Post considering Ryan's dream
Ryan

Here are some floating thoughts in relation to your dream. Maybe there is a 'hook up' in some of it for you?



First off, society seems jaded to you. It has lost its lustre. Glamour is no substitute for real freedom.

Then the Industrial Revolution - that poignant moment in time when so much disappeared from view that had previously characterized our lives as human beings. Did you see the movie "Tess of the D'Urbervilles"? Or even better, read the book? Another example of this same horrifying juxtaposition of two ways of life can be seen in that beautiful film "Days of Heaven" with Richard Gere. I guess just a couple of examples which encapsulate that terrible feeling of wrenching loss that must have welled up in the heart and soul of human kind upon being torn apart from the Earth plane and forced to develop a new, less intimate relationship to 'the soil' and the other kindred beings of the earth. In both of these tales the body of woman , women and how they are ultimately treated, is paralleled to the 'loss' sustained through the repression of the earth, the soil etc., via industrial technology. The story of the dawning of the Industrial Revolution always seemed to me somewhat like what happens when people so-called 'grow up' and 'put away the things of childhood' - that time in our lives can be the beginning of the end of true 'connection' on so many levels (if we let it)(I think of Remo's statement, elsewhere on this site (sorry, can't remember!), of how the prospect of first 'going to school' can be such a shocking moment in life - a sense of impending doom can descend..). And, now, later still we've ironically romanticized the Industrial Revolution (and its monuments - train stations, old-fashionned factory buildings etc.) because it strangely presents the closest 'link' to what existed BEFORE it's conception (it seems almost charming in relation to todays developments...). Maybe it's that most Victorian of 'views' you secretly picture: the stone factory with its - nuclear-looking? - ubiquitous smokestacks spewing black soot -?-

Siberia - always, despite the vastness and extremity, seems a sacred place. Maybe like the desert, there you can really be/feel 'alone' to either your detriment or ultimate salvation? I think of the Russian staretz, the shamans, just as you, also in this context. In places like this the mystery of the earth cannot be managed or controlled by the force/will of man. Bliss in extremity. So strange, since it seems our legacy, those of us who know something different, are receptive to another song, to be forced to the fringes of civilization in order to understand what 'paradise' could really be (or at least what 'paradise' is not !). The location 'circled' - several times - is like this, maybe pointing to this idea. The vortex wherefrom anything can be engendered, even 'paradise' (out of the no thing). The rings that emanate out from just a drop of water.

Does Jung's moustache have a father-figure feeling? Those big Victorian moustaches always felt that way to me. There was something reassurring about them. But then Jung in the dream is also a rebel with his long hair, unkempt. He is the conservative rebel. Behind him is the non-conservative rebel - the man who gets down on the ground and has no more thought about how he appears to anyone while he births his own truth (his shadow? yours?).

Jung seems to be figuring out more about 'the body' with your (unknowing) help. You are there with him to oversee it. Maybe Jung can now become as the one behind, who squats in the soil, and give up even this presentation of 'conservative rebel', having adopted the new vision. So too you can also be something beyond this conservative rebel now - you are free to let it all go now and become 'way out' -!- a challenge for sure given the way the world still views anyone who 'marches to a different drummer'.

The central line of the tripod - the axis mundi? The whole thing looks like a tree too - an evergreen tree. Jung knows the different ways of 'knowing' through the senses, but he doesn't as yet embrace the final one of 'breath'. I say this because he is a 'materialist' in the dream in the sense of the INdustrial Revolution still. HOwever, he COULD become a 'materialist' now in another way - as the man who squats in the earth, in 'matter'. He could choose embrace 'matter' now through perhaps the fourth function, which is what you are helping 'him' (from the Beyond) to accomplish through dedication to your own growth.

There is also something regarding the trinity and the quaternity in all of this geometry. It seems that maybe the 2nd triangle (the female trinity aspect) of the Seal of Solomon symbol, goes still unappraised within this singular pyramidal model. It is as if perhaps the 1st triangle and the fourth thing (the breath) which comes in to play through the trinity(pyramid) - hence now a quaternity - is still being endlessly examined by Jung - - But the man who squats in the earth represents another triangle - the lost 'triangle' of the Seal of Solomon. The 'lost' triangle IS then the Body, the Body that was lost through the ingress of the Industrial Revolution (as the two stories I quoted above proclaim). Jung never embraced the idea which Remo sets forth on his site, which has been mentionned on many threads: the idea of a quaternity which is then challenged/changed by a new incoming symbol, the Seal of Solomon with its two interpenetrating triangles, which then eventually moves again into the creation of a new quaternity, and so on...



Hope this riffing on your dream material is o.k. by you, Ryan - archetypal material just stands out so strongly in dreams doesnt' it? Very fascinating. Thanks alot for posting it and working with it in the open like this.


Kristin

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Tue May 23, 2006 8:21 pm
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Kristin,

You enter the poetic voice so easily, yet you don't go soaring unconnected to anything. You remain connected, speaking from yourself, your body, your questions. I know you have a 'Love Letter' within you to share, perhaps on crumpled paper to give Gregory. http://unus-mundus.fr/viewtopic.php?p=1242#1242 Perhaps to keep for yourself (Perhaps you have many collected in drawers and books) Perhaps your life is a Love Letter...I get that sense from you.

Quote:
Does Jung's moustache have a father-figure feeling?


I never associated with a father feeling, but your comment caught me. I had the dream about 5 months after my father died, rather quickly from a degenerative brain disease similar to Mad Cow. My father shaved everyday for work, he was president of a bank at the time, yet when the disease began taking over his life, without his knowing what was causing it, he began growing a moustache...he of course had one in the sixties, when he played guitar in a band, before he had me, before economics took over his life...before everything was too late. He told my mother, when he became scared, never to me- that he wished he could have been like me, to have lived his life like I lived mine...but he couldn't, he couldn't let go of his 'responsibilities'...Perhaps now we are entering closer to the meaning of the dream...Since his death, the dead visit me often in my sleep...Yes they do need us to do what they couldn't...And perhaps we're not strong enough, or we don't know how, but I know it helps to try.

Quote:
Hope this riffing on your dream material is o.k. by you, Ryan


Of course it is...if I only knew how to riff half as well as you...Thank you very much, Kristin...

Ryan

_________________
"Let us go then, you and I,
When the evening is spread out against the sky
Like a patient etherised upon a table;"
-T.S. Eliot: The Love Song of J. Alfred Prufrock


Tue May 23, 2006 11:02 pm
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Post Becoming stupid
When we try to interpret a dream, it is important that we really become absolutely stupid! Also if it seems very clear what the dream means -- it does exactly not mean that! -- we should look at it as if it were written in a foreign language. Then we try to decipher it.

This was the method they developed to decipher the Egyptian Hieroglyphs. It was a real chance that one found the so-called Rosetta Stone (see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rosetta_stone ):

Quote:
Wikipedia: "The Rosetta Stone is dark grey-pinkish granite stone (originally thought to be basalt in composition) with writing on it in two languages, Egyptian and Greek, using three scripts, Hieroglyphic, Demotic Egyptian and Greek. Because Greek was well known, the stone was the key to deciphering the hieroglyphs."


The dream is the text in Hieroglyphs, the associations (or amplifications) are the Greek text. If one brings the two together, one can interpret the dream.

This is one of the reasons why my motto is:

Quote:
The most useful lesson life has given me is that the fools often are right (Winston Churchill)


Remo

_________________
'Here stands the mean uncomely stone,
Tis very cheap in price!
The more it is despised by fools,
The more loved by the wise.'
(C.G. Jung, MDR, p. 253)
WebSite: http://www.paulijungunusmundus.eu


Wed May 24, 2006 9:50 am
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In agreement with Ryan I'm posting now an interpretation of the above dream.

First we have to look at the context:

Ryan is thinking about Gregory’s comment of the relationship between the body and the subtle body:

Quote:
"For me the most telling comment in the book occcurs on page 47 "the geometrical manifestation of imaginary numbers is vertical movement in the plane". I took that psychologically speaking to mean when we interact with the Beyond we move out of the earthly plane of reality and real numbers and into imaginary numbers. Further a simple translation in the vertical direction can move the imaginary numbers into the realm of real numbers. I guess this kind of manifestation is akin to the movenment of the head into the belly (from reality into imaginary) and then to help the yin energy of the belly rise to the heart chakra and thus back towards incarnation into reality. Our subtle body, the psychophysical body is the intermediate place where these translations in the vertical direction can take place it seems to me.


The following dream comes into his mind (synchronistically). I enter it with the associations (a little shortened):

Image
Image

By inserting the associations into the dream text or/and replacing the latter by the former, we get the following interpretation:

Interpretation:

The beginning of a dream shows the problem: Ryan seems to suffer a meaningless life which has to do with too much extraversion in a profession he does not like too much.

In this situation Carl Jung comes as a future possibility which has further to do with excitement. We should take “Carl Jung” subjectively. This means that we look at him as a part of Ryan that would like to be developed. It is an aspect in him that could give him a new meaning of life.

The “Carl Jung complex,” a yet unconscious part of Ryan’s personality, demonstrates however that it is yet very ambivalent. On the one hand this “complex” is a rebel, especially one that abandons thinking [RFR: the sacrificium intellectus], on the other it is a “slave of economy” and money matters.

[Here I remember Ryan’s insight as a result of Kristin’s comment above. I wrote however my interpretation before I read it.]

Thus the situation of the “future trip” is exciting as well as one of anxiety. But it seems that there is the possibility of being appreciated by the world for such a future work.

The future work has to do with “body language.” This language is much more honest than our normal language. It has to do with pleasure, and not with the well-known problem one has with the learning of a new language.

The main goal of this “body language” – which, as much as I see, could have a lot to do with Body-Centered Imagination – seems first to be to develop “Carl Jung” himself. Since in his earthly life Carl Jung did not do this, the motif means of course that Ryan has the task to develop a body-related healing “method” on the background of Carl Jung’s depth psychology.

The decisive challenge of such a development is the transformation of the masculine into the feminine. Ryan has to become a man who is able to give birth to children. Like this he will be in a relationship with a “god of openness”, ie without any restrictions [as for example the Christan God, who is too causal and does not include acausality (the latter thus being the devil)]. This challenge will have to do with some sort of Shamanism [but of course not just an imitation of this archaic method], but also with isolation which seems however to be necessary for the survival.

“Shamanism” in the broadest sense is therefore Ryan’s most important goal of life.

The rest of the dream is deeply archetypal. Thus one would need a whole book to extract its meaning. This is why I show here only that the pyramids have to do with the subtle body, which in the old Egypt culture was the resurrection body, the glorified body for the life in the Beyond. This is why they mummified the deceased. Since the subtle body helped also to heal earthly disease, in a process of a concretization real Egyptian mummies were given by physicians as the life essence, for example by Paracelsus.

The end of the dream tells us that Ryan’s approach in finding the subtle body has to do with “inner sight”, “inner listening” and “inner touching”, ie with vision, audition and the method I call the use of the “ghosthands.” All these tools we use in Body-Centered Imagination. This is why I already above guessed that the “body language” is an expression for the BCI Ryan has to learn.

Remo

_________________
'Here stands the mean uncomely stone,
Tis very cheap in price!
The more it is despised by fools,
The more loved by the wise.'
(C.G. Jung, MDR, p. 253)
WebSite: http://www.paulijungunusmundus.eu


Wed May 24, 2006 10:38 am
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