UNUS MUNDUS

The UNUS MUNDUS forum of Psychovision (Remo F. Roth) invites discussion of theoretical and practical issues of a possible union of Carl Jung's depth psychology with quantum physical principles.
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 opening dreams... 
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Post opening dreams...
Bonjour à toutes et tous,

(Hi, everybody !)

In order to start the discussion here is a slighly modified copy of a very recent post I had to delete on another forum for reasons exposed in the announcements thread (http://psychophysical.free.fr/viewtopic.php?t=22) :


Quote:
Remo wrote:

The secret is to find out what one can tell in public and what not. This is one of the most important parts of the real individuation process.

I guess I have a few things to tell that are related to the above posts. I hope you’ll forgive my quite long contribution. (Please forgive my bad English too.)

I would like to quote two recent dreams. They are from a man in his late forties who has been on the individuation quest for more than twenty years.

Quote:
I am with L. who is my right arm at work (he represents my external aspect, the one dealing with the life that does not really suits me any more).

We are walking in a strange country, out of time. There is that typical low light that seems to come out of things and which I recognise as the inner light of the “other side world”.
I am carrying two bottles of champagne and as we enter a medieval looking village made of nice stones I tell L. we should celebrate and have a nice drink.
He declines the idea as he is in sort of gloomy mood completely different from my joyful attitude.
He says he is hungry rather, and I notice something that looks like a very small restaurant or an inn.
I also notice that there are many moons and suns in the sky, each arranged by converging couple and I am going to tell Laurent about it but he drags me into the inn before I can speak to him.
As we seat at a small wooden table I offer myself a glass of champagne.
An old woman appears. She is different, as if from another world, at the same time very serious and merry. She asks us what we would like for a meal.
Suddenly we are outside on a small place slightly uphill. There are people everywhere watching the sky.
I see an extraordinary thing happen: a blue circle appears in the sky as if created by the pressure of an outer sphere against the atmospheric sphere of the earth. Inside the circle there are 2x3 dots moving in a circular movement on themselves and arranged in 2 triangles. They tend to swap their positions too.

I can feel their procreative dimension.

There are also many moon/sun converging couples.
I immediately recognise the phenomenon as the Coniunctio and I try to reach Remo telepathically to tell him about it, but there is so much positive excitement around that I can’t get into the proper mood. (I can’t “get on line”).
Then I am again with the old woman and ask her about the event. She tells me they (the village people) are used to it. The previous time, the doctor of the village got a bed from the phenomenon and he keeps it at his place. I ask her to see it. She agrees for she guesses I know about these things too.

The following night there was another dream:

I was going to see the old Jung at his place. After a long trip by train I found myself in a sort of waiting room with a man I seemed to know who told he had to see Jung immediately. I was not very happy about it, because it meant my appointment was cancelled and I had made a long trip to get there.
But then I found myself among the circle of Jung’s most intimate friends, mostly women, and among them MLVF.
We were walking together in the garden. Suddenly Jung asked if someone could show him Paris. Everybody took an escalator and I found myself on the outer side of the escalator on the immediate right of Jung. He told me not to worry, that we would meet privately the whole day long on the 21st and hugged me… (I understood the feeling implication of this private meeting. There was no intention for an intellectual exchange: it was just the necessity for two people of a kind to meet and rejoice).

These two dreams are quite impressive.
In the first one the coniunctio motif is clearly exposed and consciously none only recognised but welcomed by the dreamer.
In the first part, the dreamer is accompanied with a man who is presented in the dream itself as the representation of the dreamer outer life side. The dreamer is of a highly introvert type and suffers from having too much to give to this outer life, but he knows also that this constraint is part of his own individuation process.

But there, in the dream, his companion does not lead the way, he has to follow and accept the joyful mood of the dreamer.
Two characteristics of the place they enter are noticeable:
- it is a sort a medieval village made of beautiful stones, a kind of temenos.
- The light has a very peculiar nature. It seems to glow from the inner side of things. This light he knows from previous dreams as a characteristic of a very realm he associates with what Remo calls the realm of the Eros self.

In opposition to the weighty gloomy mood of his outer aspect, the dreamer wants to celebrate and drink some champagne.
The Dionysian aspect of the motif calls the attention to some kind of necessity. His consciously accepted sufferings of a split life brings to the front the compensatory inner (not projected) attitude necessary to enter the deepest layers of the inner world symbolised but the temenos and its strange inhabitants.
Champagne is clearly a hint to a bubbling inner life where he can observe the coniunctio phenomena.
The first sighting shows at the same time the union of the sun and the moon and the multiplication of the phenomenon, which to my mind alludes to the production of the red tincture. But this is still a stellar event.
The drinking of champagne is immediately followed by the appearance of the tenant of the inn, the old woman at the same time serious and merry.

I could easily make a parallel between the small inn and the laundry in MLvF’s dream.

Quote:
“In summer of 1994 [Marie-Louise von Franz] was visited by a woman, a medium, who wanted to convince her to collaborate with her; she was certain that the Christian and the Buddhist spirit were presently uniting on the other side in order to save the world. Marie-Louise promised nothing - she wanted first to see what she might dream. The following night she had this dream:

‘She is working in the laundry at the cloister in Einsiedeln. She is given to understand that Jung would come down from heaven to the wedding of the Black Madonna. Marie-Louise is among the one hundred elect who are permitted to take part in the wedding.‘

She then said that the unconscious was indeed preparing a remedy for the world and a union, to be sure not one "above in the spiritual realm," but a union of above and below, a union of spirit and matter. Very early on the Virgin Mary was thought to be "the earth;" the Black Madonna was a nature goddess. And yet the union comes about in a Christian framework, which she (Mary-Louise) never could accept. But still the dream filled her with the highest happiness.”

[Source: http://journeyintowholeness.org/news/nl/v12n3/eulogy2.shtm ]


In MLvF’s the laundry indicates that we are dealing with very earthly matters, to quote Remo:

Quote:
“As much as I see, "laundry" means dealing with the shadow, with the so-called dirt. In her case it is however not the personal shadow, but the shadow of Carl Jung's (Logos) Self, i.e., what I call the Eros Self [or perhaps the Self of the Logos spermatikos -- the rival of the Logos of Plato (the latter an idea of W. Pauli)]”


In the other dream, we are in an inn, nor far from the kitchen. We are still close to the earth, but the idea is one of synthesis (cooking) and integration (eating). In a way we are one step further, as if the work of our predecessors had become of a deep inner heritage we have to elaborate further.
The enlargement of a certain type of consciousness affects the depths of the godhead and contributes to the collective “evolution”, both “sides”.

I would tend to consider the old woman as a representative of the further eros-consciousness.

Clearly enough what she serves at her table is the extraordinary event described further on.

a blue circle appears in the sky as if created by the pressure of an outer sphere against the atmospheric sphere of the earth.

(I would highly recommend the reading of Remo’s Return of the World Soul and The Archetype of the Holy Wedding in Alchemy and in the unconscious of Modern Man on his site to those who are not familiar with them. http://www.psychovision.ch/rfr/contrib_SYNC.htm)

The blue circle which seems to be growing in circumference is presented as the intersection between two spherical worlds intermixing. There is something of a coitus in that scene. Of course it is a very immediate representation of the coniunctio. The god and the goddess are having a very public cosmic intercourse under the joyful observation of the village people.
We must notice that there is no questioning on their behalf: they observe and they rejoice. I guess that joy has deep inner roots. They constitute what Remo describe as the conditions for creatio continua to take place: sheer observation in a deep introverted state, the wu wei attitude. You’ll notice also that there is no fear, such as it appears in the UFO abduction syndrome where the observers are drawn into the situation against their will and consciouness…
But then we are offered far more at this meal: none only can we assist to the coniunctio act but we can perceive what is growing inside the intersecting circle, the intermediate world borne out of the coniunctio.

Inside the circle there are 2x3 dots moving in a circular movement on themselves and arranged in 2 triangles. They tend to swap their positions too.
I can feel their procreative dimension.

There are also many moon/sun converging couples.

We could sum up the above description as a dynamic seal of Solomon. This animation inside the seal contains the idea of the exchange of attributes.

Once again I will quote Remo:

Quote:
“Because of the descent of God, the divine feminine principle contains now a masculine principle. This union is symbolized by the so-called coniunctio or Hierosgamos, the Holy Wedding, the sexual union of the Goddess and the God.
This renewed God-image, the first result of the coniunctio, is represented by the Seal of Solomon. It symbolizes a potential world that contains a new creation, and it is situated in an intermediate realm. It is a subtle realm, neither spirit nor matter, the so-called unus mundus. This in-between reality the alchemists called also the lapis, the incorruptible gold, the subtle body, the deified body or the resurrection body. It is the psychophysical reality beyond the split in matter and spirit (psyche), Wolfgang Pauli and Carl G. Jung looked for.
In a symbolic language, we can imagine this situation as the pregnancy of the World Soul.

Because the original masculine principle transforms into a feminine and the feminine into a renewed masculine, as a second result of the coniunctio a so-called exchange of attributes takes place: Spirit becomes matter, matter becomes spirit .
In Taoism, this process is described by the transformation of yang into yin and vice versa, the process, which is also the background of the I Ching, The Book of Changes. The goal is called the Tao.

As a third result of the coniunctio the so-called infans solaris is born out of this intermediate realm. This definite goal of Robert Fludd’s opus his predecessor Gerardus Dorneus called the extraction of the red tincture from the lapis.
The birth of the infans solaris and the extraction of the red tincture are an incarnation process, which is – in the terms of today’s science – a unique, acausal or indeterministic event. Therefore Wolfgang Pauli has compared it with the radioactive decay. In Taoism this goal of the process happens in the moment when the Tao is reached.

(…)

The goal of most alchemists was the so-called philosophical gold which was symbolically equivalent to the lapis, the stone, the unus mundus. It describes the above mentioned intermediate realm beyond the split in matter and spirit (or psyche) of today’s zeitgeist.

The Hermetic alchemists and physicians Paracelsus, Gerardus Dorneus and Robert Fludd, however, were not satisfied with this goal. In their visions they had during their Opus - the "refining" of the matter of the macrocosm and especially the cure of sick people -, they still saw a continuation of the process leading to the final goal. Robert Fludd described it as the infans solaris, the sun’s child or the sun/moon child, which was of course a natural product of the coniunctio, of the Holy Wedding of the Goddess and God. For Gerardus Dorneus it was the red tincture, the healing substance that was extracted from the lapis. It was some sort of Alexipharmakum, the antidote, or the so-called medicina catholica, the all-healing medicine.
Because this final result of the Opus was also a product that was born out of the intermediate realm, it is obvious that it can neither be a physical substance, as for example a drug, nor a spiritual or psychic one, as for example a psychotherapy method. In contrast, it must contain the properties of the unified psychophysical reality or unus mundus, especially the subtle quality of this deepest background of the living bodily matter and of the matter in the universe. Further, this final result of the Opus, the infans solaris or the red tincture, must also bear the properties of the feminine energy principle, the World Soul. “


see: http://www.psychovision.ch/hknw/lifeafterdeathandmysticism2.htm#86


Thus what is exposed in the blue circle is a representation of the red tincture, with its radiating and fertilizing effects. Out of the animation of the seal radiates the creatio continua.

The dreamer wants to join Remo telepathically. Remo is for him the man who has given him the means to reinterpret his most important inner experiences as dealing with eros-consciousness. But telepathy partakes of the Pauli-effect that is to say a stage previous to the one described. In some way he is blocked from this “regressive” action by the positive excitement that seems to be common medium (or wave) linking everybody around.

Instead, he is back with the old woman who tells him about the doctor and the bed.
What came out of the previous happening was a bed given to the village doctor.
Things tend to get very earthly: the bed is a human place for the coniunctio, either sexual, or with oneself through dreams for example. It is the place where vegetative life takes over when one falls asleep… This is were many births still take place too.
In the dream the bed is also associated with some healing capacities, since the village doctor is its keeper.
I would say that in a shortcut typical of inner wisdom, the dream collides in the bed motif all its content: wu wei attitude leading to the observation of creation continua and the sexual union of the god and the goddess that produces the infans solaris or red tincture with the healing capacities attributed to them.

That’s a bit of a load for a simple man, but of course this was a dream for the community, as Jung used to say…

The dreamer fully received the dream and welcomed the joyful mood the morning brought with it. He was, and still is highly concerned with the sad future the human community is preparing to our world and such a dream carries much hope for him.

I offer you these first comments and post mine concerning the second dream soon...

Best to all

Roger

_________________
Fire over wood:
THE IMAGE of THE CAULDRON.
Thus the superior man consolidates his fate By making his position correct.
The fate of fire depends on wood; as long as there is wood below, the fire burns above. It is the same in human life; there is in man likewise a fate that lends power to his life. And if he succeeds in assigning the right place to life and to fate, thus bringing the two into harmony, he puts his fate on a firm footing.

I Ching #50


Tue Mar 07, 2006 8:24 am
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Post Re: opening dreams...
Roger

What an incredible dream !!! I'd like to give some comments to your interpretation which seems to be all right for me.

Quote:
I am with L. who is my right arm at work (he represents my external aspect, the one dealing with the life that does not really suits me any more).

We are walking in a strange country, out of time. There is that typical low light that seems to come out of things and which I recognise as the inner light of the “other side world”.


This is the unus mundus, the Beyond, the "always/everywhere" how I call this realm, too. It is the world in which the Sufis enter when they say: "Die before you die!"

Quote:
I am carrying two bottles of champagne...


Like this one prepares for the Eros ego -- no thinking anymore...

Quote:
An old woman appears. She is different, as if from another world, at the same time very serious and merry. She asks us what we would like for a meal.


I guess she is not a symbol of the Eros ego but the Eros Self. By her very earthly behaviour she helps the dreamer to come down into the belly.

Quote:
Suddenly we are outside on a small place slightly uphill. There are people everywhere watching the sky.


If one has learned this behaviour, the transformation of the Logos ego into the Eros ego, one sees the "new Heaven" the "Heavenly Jerusalem" after the apocalyptic catastrophe... Thus, I do not think that the phenomenon is "yet in the sky", but that it is a symbol of the "new world", symbolized in the "New Jerusalem", which is also in the sky. The same motif is the rotatio of the circle below. It is the result of the coniunctio and seems to be a real new world. Perhaps since the roation is so important in the creation act, also the stars in the heaven are arranged in spirals. The spiral is the deepest archetype behind the phenomenone we call life (the DNA double helix for example).

Quote:
I see an extraordinary thing happen: a blue circle appears in the sky as if created by the pressure of an outer sphere against the atmospheric sphere of the earth. Inside the circle there are 2x3 dots moving in a circular movement on themselves and arranged in 2 triangles. They tend to swap their positions too. I can feel their procreative dimension.


The dreamer dreams here a motif, which chased Wolfgang Pauli: The union of the oscillation with the rotation (see http://www.psychovision.ch/synw/paujubw_e.htm ). As much as I can see up until today, it is the symbol of the incarnation process. It seems that it means a physical or subtle physical incarnation process, and not a spiritual as for example the synchronicities. It is the red tincture, the infans solaris (the sun/moon child), the quintessence, of which Pauli's dream of the Chinese woman (the queen of Hermetic alchemy) talks, and MLvF published (partly) in her book Number and Time, p. 108-9. Pauli was however not yet ready to go down into his belly and do BCI, since he was identical with the Logos ego (though introverted and related to the Logos Self). This is why we have this task at the beginning of the 21st century.

Quote:
There are also many moon/sun converging couples.


The multiplicatio, yes, which belongs to the coniunctio and the exchange of attributes. It is the constructive complement to the destructive radioactive decay (the physical multiplicatio, since the radioactivity of matter "multiplies" as soon as it meets matter, i.e., any matter in the surrounding becomes also radioactive). The radioactive decay is destructive, since we produce it artificially. On a psychophysical basis the radioactive decay is however the coniunctio! It produces the infans solaris, the red tincture, but completely destructive -> UFO encounter and abduction.

Quote:
Then I am again with the old woman and ask her about the event. She tells me they (the village people) are used to it. The previous time, the doctor of the village got a bed from the phenomenon and he keeps it at his place. I ask her to see it. She agrees for she guesses I know about these things too.


Yes, the people in the unus mundus, the dead in the Beyond, are used to experience these incarnation acts. However, they cannot do it themselves. This is why we living humans must help them. It is what Isaak Luria called the tikkun ( http://www.psychovision.ch/ufnw/egeln_chap13_roth.htm ):

Quote:
"An impressive example of the archetype of the transformation of the image of God -- which means also a New Genesis -- we find in the Kabbalah of Isaac Luria (1534-1572): When God created the ten-fold tree of the Sefiroth -- a gnostic image of the Anthropos (God-man) -- only the first three Sefiroth were strong enough to absorb the Divine Light.

The rest were too weak and broke whereby they were swallowed by the demonic forces and matter. With this disintegration of the Anthropos A STATE OF NON-REDEMPTION OF MAN AND GOD was created. Therefore man has the challenge of the so-called 'tikkun', the restitution of the Anthropos (God-man) in his wholeness.

IN THIS WAY EVERY HUMAN BEING ASSISTS THE GODHEAD WITH THE REVERSAL OF THE DESTRUCTION OF THE WORLD'S CREATION

When we contemplate the disaster of today's world, the thought could come that such a method could be the greatest and very last attempt to rescue mankind.

Carl G. Jung was excited about this idea of Luria's Kabbalah. He realized in it a mystical correspondence to his individuation process, discovered in empirical experience.

He writes in a letter: 'HERE THE THOUGHT ARISES FOR THE FIRST TIME THAT MAN MUST HELP GOD TO REPAIR THE HARM WHICH CREATION HAS DONE. FOR THE FIRST TIME THE COSMIC RESPONSIBILITY OF MAN IS APPRECIATED.' "


The doctor is the Eros ego of the dreamer, this is why he owns the bed at the end.

The bed shows that Body-Centered Imagination and the relationship with the dead in the Beyond -- I means this very concretely -- has to happen in a body that is quiet. It is not the vision quest of Castaneda/Don Juan Matus. This is the big difference of today. The meditation must happen in a body that rests !!! Otherwise no transformation of the spirit-psyche into the matter-psyche (et vice versa), the central process of the coniunctio, the exchange of attributes, is possible. Only this process connects us with the Beyond, since matter-psyche is the "energy of the Beyond".

Remo

_________________
'Here stands the mean uncomely stone,
Tis very cheap in price!
The more it is despised by fools,
The more loved by the wise.'
(C.G. Jung, MDR, p. 253)
WebSite: http://www.paulijungunusmundus.eu


Wed Mar 08, 2006 7:41 am
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Post Re: opening dreams...
Roger

Quote:
The following night there was another dream:

I was going to see the old Jung at his place. After a long trip by train I found myself in a sort of waiting room with a man I seemed to know who told he had to see Jung immediately. I was not very happy about it, because it meant my appointment was cancelled and I had made a long trip to get there.
But then I found myself among the circle of Jung’s most intimate friends, mostly women, and among them MLVF.
We were walking together in the garden. Suddenly Jung asked if someone could show him Paris. Everybody took an escalator and I found myself on the outer side of the escalator on the immediate right of Jung. He told me not to worry, that we would meet privately the whole day long on the 21st and hugged me… (I understood the feeling implication of this private meeting. There was no intention for an intellectual exchange: it was just the necessity for two people of a kind to meet and rejoice).


My dreams tell me -- and now Jungians can declare me crazy, I don't mind! -- that Carl Jung in the Beyond whishes exactly the process, of which the first dream of your friend talks. Only with the help of the Body-Centered Imagination he and also MLvF (and Pauli) can further develop in the Beyond.

Your friend shows Paris to Jung. This is in fact an incredible message from the preconscious knowledge of the collective unconscious, since Jung confessed that the happiest time of his life was in 1902 in Paris, when he was with his cousin Helly (!!!) -- with her, who was a medium, i.e., was able to have a relationship with the Beyond. See http://www.psychovision.ch/hknw/holy_we ... 5_e.htm#55

When he entered the Burhölzli clinic he destroyed this world of the mediums and became a materialistic psychiatrist. Then, in his night sea journey he found back to the living unconscious. His task was to develop the relationship to the Logos Self, to the collective spirit-psyche. But he was not yet able to develop the relationship to the collective matter-psyche, the Eros Self. This is why Carl Jung in the Beyond would like to come back to the wedding of the Black Madonna (i.e., the coniunctio observed by us, the yet living human beings), and perhaps you remeber that this dream of MLvF was a reaction on the visit of a medium.

See http://kaleidoscope-forum.org/talk/viewtopic.php?t=36

Jung has changed! He just hugs the dreamer. The Jung of this world however was a very intellectual man. As his own associtation tests of 1904 and 1907 show, his power was the word (as the son of a pastor!) and not the Eros. Now however he looks for the Eros -- and your friend can help him by doing BCI.

Remo

_________________
'Here stands the mean uncomely stone,
Tis very cheap in price!
The more it is despised by fools,
The more loved by the wise.'
(C.G. Jung, MDR, p. 253)
WebSite: http://www.paulijungunusmundus.eu


Last edited by Remo Roth on Thu Mar 09, 2006 7:55 am, edited 2 times in total.



Wed Mar 08, 2006 8:04 am
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Post Part II: the Jung dream
Quote:
I was going to see the old Jung at his place. After a long trip by train I found myself in a sort of waiting room with a man I seemed to know who told he had to see Jung immediately. I was not very happy about it, because it meant my appointment was cancelled and I had made a long trip to get there.
But then I found myself among the circle of Jung’s most intimate friends, mostly women, and among them MLVF.
We were walking together in the garden. Suddenly Jung asked if someone could show him Paris. Everybody took an escalator and I found myself on the outer side of the escalator on the immediate right of Jung. He told me not to worry, that we would meet privately the whole day long on the 21st and hugged me… (I understood the feeling implication of this private meeting. There was no intention for an intellectual exchange: it was just the necessity for two people of a kind to meet and rejoice).


The following night the dreamer received the above “Jung dream”.

Jung appears from time to time in his dreams, always as the “old Jung” with whom he has friendly relationship.

This is an important characteristic since it is not the powerful mind and the internationally recognised “Herr professor” that is presented. Rather we have the image of an old man at the end of his life radiating inner wisdom, precisely Jung as one guesses he was when he went a step further in “the other world” of death.
The feeling aspect relates to the Eros realm.

This dimension is stressed by the dream. At the beginning one might consider that the dreamer has a classical “analytic” appointment with Jung.
This is not the case. His appointment is cancelled. I guess that the other who takes his place is a shadowy aspect, some remains of the Logos consciousness that tries to rationalize the previous dream.
But then the dreamer accepts the situation and is then introduced to some kind of inner circle.
All the people of this circle are dead. Something that is not précised in the written dream, is that in the garden and the following scenes, the light is the same as in the first dream, indicating again the Eros realm.

So this inner circle is in the “other world” and the dreamer is welcomed there, but he is not dead.

If we accept the idea that in this very deep realm we can meet “something” related to the departed, (as Jung himself spoke about, out of his own experience, in Memories, dreams, reflections, his official biography), then when can deduce from this image that possibly he has reached in the other world something he had missed in his life: the possibility of a deeper reality beyond the (Logos) Self he has described.
In itself this is good news.

Now then, this would also imply that the dreamer works as a go-between. This is why he is so lovingly welcome by this symbolic gathering: a strong male figure absorbed into a female ring.
What happens then is IMO also related to MLvF’s dream announcing Jung’s return: Jung asks to visit Paris and they take an escalator to come up to the surface.

I guess that the dreamer acts as a kind of guide since he is on the right of the old man.

But then something else happens: Jung kindly dismisses the dreamer with the promise of a whole day of friendship with on the 21st.

At that point, Jung’s return, whatever it means, becomes an autonomous phenomenon that should lead to a reunion with the living world represented by the dreamer.

Obviously 21 is a hint at the animated double ternary motif of the first dream as commented by Remo in his above post:

Quote:
The dreamer dreams here a motif, which chased Wolfgang Pauli: The union of the oscillation with the rotation (see http://www.psychovision.ch/synw/paujubw_e.htm ). As much as I can see up until today, it is the symbol of the incarnation process. It seems that it means a physical or subtle physical incarnation process, and not a spiritual as for example the synchronicities. It is the red tincture, the infans solaris (the sun/moon child), the quintessence, of which Pauli's dream of the Chinese woman (the queen of Hermetic alchemy) talks, and MLvF published (partly) in her book Number and Time, p. 108-9. Pauli was however not yet ready to go down into his belly and do BCI, since he was identical with the Logos ego (though introverted and related to the Logos Self). This is why we have this task at the beginning of the 21st century.


Any idea?

Best

Roger.

_________________
Fire over wood:
THE IMAGE of THE CAULDRON.
Thus the superior man consolidates his fate By making his position correct.
The fate of fire depends on wood; as long as there is wood below, the fire burns above. It is the same in human life; there is in man likewise a fate that lends power to his life. And if he succeeds in assigning the right place to life and to fate, thus bringing the two into harmony, he puts his fate on a firm footing.

I Ching #50


Last edited by Roger Faglin on Fri Mar 17, 2006 6:38 pm, edited 1 time in total.



Wed Mar 08, 2006 8:42 am
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Post coniunctio dreams posted by Roger
Hi all

It seems that Roger did not yet have read my comments to the second dream when he posted his contribution. Thus read the two posts in this way.

Remo

_________________
'Here stands the mean uncomely stone,
Tis very cheap in price!
The more it is despised by fools,
The more loved by the wise.'
(C.G. Jung, MDR, p. 253)
WebSite: http://www.paulijungunusmundus.eu


Wed Mar 08, 2006 9:20 pm
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Post 
Roger

It is very interesting that in his old days C.G. was very intensely occupied with the question of the relationship of the living with the dead. One can read about this in his Memories, Dreams, Reflections. In contrast to the Christian belief, his dreams told him that not the dead have the knowledge, but we, the living, and that it is our duty to bring it to the dead. Thus, the dead are incredibly interested in what we find out in this life, be it scientific, be it psychological. This is a very interesting aspect, and of course very important for all people who are on their (real!) individuation process. The latter brings loneliness, lets "mainstream" people hate and scorn you -- but the dead, the great ones, are greedy to get the news from you.

This is how I experience Carl Jung, Marie-Louise von Franz and Wolfgang Pauli in the Beyond.

Remo

_________________
'Here stands the mean uncomely stone,
Tis very cheap in price!
The more it is despised by fools,
The more loved by the wise.'
(C.G. Jung, MDR, p. 253)
WebSite: http://www.paulijungunusmundus.eu


Thu Mar 09, 2006 8:06 am
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Post Relationship with the Dead
Thus, for me Marie-Louise von Franz' last book On Dreams and Death has become very important. It contains dreams about the afterlife and shows that we cannot distinguish between the individuation process and the afterlife. A very interesting aspect! This means that if we do not deal with our archetypal dreams we have this duty in the Beyond. There, however, we are dependent of the work of the living. Thus, why not decide to live in the "profane monastery" (Jung) and deal with one's own individuation process? (What does not mean that young people should do so. First one has to live one's extraverted life.)

Remo

PS: See also http://paulijungunusmundus.eu/trnw/trauntod.htm

_________________
'Here stands the mean uncomely stone,
Tis very cheap in price!
The more it is despised by fools,
The more loved by the wise.'
(C.G. Jung, MDR, p. 253)
WebSite: http://www.paulijungunusmundus.eu


Last edited by Remo Roth on Tue May 15, 2012 6:08 am, edited 1 time in total.



Thu Mar 09, 2006 8:19 am
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Post Go between
Remo Roth wrote:
Roger

It is very interesting that in his old days C.G. was very intensely occupied with the question of the relationship of the living with the dead. One can read about this in his Memories, Dreams, Reflections. In contrast to the Christian belief, his dreams told him that not the dead have the knowledge, but we, the living, and that it is our duty to bring it to the dead. Thus, the dead are incredibly interested in what we find out in this life, be it scientific, be it psychological. This is a very interesting aspect, and of course very important for all people who are on their (real!) individuation process. The latter brings loneliness, lets "mainstream" people hate and scorn you -- but the dead, the great ones, are greedy to get the news from you.

This is how I experience Carl Jung, Marie-Louise von Franz and Wolfgang Pauli in the Beyond.

Remo


Yes. This is the reason why I consider the dreamer in the Jung dream as a go-between.

What is described in this dream is fascinating: as the dreamer is conscious of the special nature of the world wher he is everything works differently.

This is not a nightmare with living-deads, I mean. It is on the contrary very constructive. This is also why the dreamer is welcomed.

You will notice also that though there are talks in the garden (of which we know nothing) what is stressed by the dream is the relational dimension (Eros). I mean that the link is more important than any (Logos) message.

As for the loneliness and the misundertandings, the scorn etc... well yes they pave the indivuation way... But that's the way it is, isn't it? ':wink:'

Best

_________________
Fire over wood:
THE IMAGE of THE CAULDRON.
Thus the superior man consolidates his fate By making his position correct.
The fate of fire depends on wood; as long as there is wood below, the fire burns above. It is the same in human life; there is in man likewise a fate that lends power to his life. And if he succeeds in assigning the right place to life and to fate, thus bringing the two into harmony, he puts his fate on a firm footing.

I Ching #50


Last edited by Roger Faglin on Thu Mar 09, 2006 4:55 pm, edited 1 time in total.



Thu Mar 09, 2006 8:22 am
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Post On Dreams and Death
Oh, sorry. My article is written in German. Where is the human who could translate this into English ... ?

Remo


Thu Mar 09, 2006 8:28 am
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Post Re: Go between
Roger Faglin wrote:
This is not a nightmare with living-deads, I mean. It is on the contrary very constructive. This is also why the dreamer is welcomed.

Yes, it seems that the dreamer has accepted his specific duty in this life, i.e., to have a relationship with the dead in the Beyond. Let us hope that many will follow him. IMO, only like this we can overcome the destructive power in our world, be it Bin Laden, be it the "nuky cowboy" on the other side of the "big pool."

Remo

_________________
'Here stands the mean uncomely stone,
Tis very cheap in price!
The more it is despised by fools,
The more loved by the wise.'
(C.G. Jung, MDR, p. 253)
WebSite: http://www.paulijungunusmundus.eu


Thu Mar 09, 2006 8:39 am
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