UNUS MUNDUS

The UNUS MUNDUS forum of Psychovision (Remo F. Roth) invites discussion of theoretical and practical issues of a possible union of Carl Jung's depth psychology with quantum physical principles.
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 The UFO and the Subtle Body 
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Post The UFO and the Subtle Body
I'm opening here a new thread with a remark of Sang

Sang wrote:
a comment
Remo,
I'm finding it quite helpful as I am re-reading your article "The UFO and the Subtle Body"!
Peace, Sang

_________________
'Here stands the mean uncomely stone,
Tis very cheap in price!
The more it is despised by fools,
The more loved by the wise.'
(C.G. Jung, MDR, p. 253)
WebSite: http://www.paulijungunusmundus.eu


Wed Jun 07, 2006 8:47 am
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Post 
Remo Roth wrote:
Thanks, Sang

I guess you're talking of

http://www.psychovision.ch/ufnw/ufo_dre ... _part1.htm and

http://www.psychovision.ch/ufnw/ufo_dre ... _part2.htm

I'll read this article and have a look if I have to change anything as a result of my newest research results. The main tenor is however all right, I guess.

Remo

_________________
'Here stands the mean uncomely stone,
Tis very cheap in price!
The more it is despised by fools,
The more loved by the wise.'
(C.G. Jung, MDR, p. 253)
WebSite: http://www.paulijungunusmundus.eu


Wed Jun 07, 2006 8:48 am
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Post UFOs and the subtle body
Sang,

could you tell us what your reactions are?

thanks

Roger

_________________
Fire over wood:
THE IMAGE of THE CAULDRON.
Thus the superior man consolidates his fate By making his position correct.
The fate of fire depends on wood; as long as there is wood below, the fire burns above. It is the same in human life; there is in man likewise a fate that lends power to his life. And if he succeeds in assigning the right place to life and to fate, thus bringing the two into harmony, he puts his fate on a firm footing.

I Ching #50


Wed Jun 07, 2006 9:18 am
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Post Energetic definitions and the possible processes
Quote:
I'll read this article and have a look if I have to change anything as a result of my newest research results. The main tenor is however all right, I guess.


I do not know how many here are interested in my theoretical thoughts. If not, don't read them. For me it is important that I can write about them in the forum which is, as Roger defined it, also a discussion forum about my theory.

I wrote the above article more than three and a half years ago. In these times I did not yet realize what I call today the twin process in the form I described it especially in The Holy Wedding, Chapter 4 (see http://www.psychovision.ch/hknw/holy_we ... ntents.htm ). Though I felt already that there must be an as yet unknown process, in which some energy transforms into another form and back into the original (with increased negentropy; see below), I did not yet see that this energy is what I call today the "matter-psyche." Thus I talked of a "psychification of (bodily) matter (or energy)."

This formulation suggests that the other form of energy is Carl Jung's objective psychic energy and is thus not correct. Some months after the above article I realized that the collective unconscious and the unus mundus are not the same. The former is a completely spiritual "realm" -- it is what I call today the Logos Self and contains what I call the spirit-psyche -- the latter however contains matter-psyche (as well as spirit-psyche, since the unus mundus is the place where the transformation takes place). I call it also the Eros Self, and Hermetic alchemy states that in it the Holy Wedding (second coniunctio, Hierosgamos, sacred marriage) takes place. It is the intermediary world between spirit and matter Robert Fludd defines (see http://www.psychovision.ch/synw/platinf ... p3.htm#431 ), of which Wolfgang Pauli was so much fascinated. It is the world of the subtle body and of the world soul, the former the microcosmic aspect, the latter the macrocosmic aspect of the Eros Self.

If we follow these definitions, we have three "sorts" of possible energies.

1. physical/chemical energy; I call it outer spirit-psyche

2. Carl Jung's objective psychic energy; I call it inner spirit-psyche

3. matter-psyche; this is a form of energy science does not accept since we cannot measure it with the help of physical means. It is neither contained in Carl Jung's depth psychology. It is however a form of energy Hermetic alchemy speaks implicitely of when it defines the "intermediary realm" in which the Holy Wedding takes place.

Between 1. and 2. there exists a complementary relationship, as Wolfgang Pauli has shown. This means that we can -- on a spirit/psychic level, ie with our mind (head brain) -- look at the world from outside, then we see the physical aspect of it, or from inside, then we see the objective psychic aspect of it (of course also the aspect of the personal psyche).

Like this I had then seen that it is in fact, as Wolfgang Pauli states, not possible that physical energy transforms into objective psychic energy, et vice versa. He writes:

Quote:
"Physical energy is, without exception, indestructible; it does not change into hidden, nonphysical forms of energy (such as 'psychic energy', for example)." [AaA, p. 184]


I am convinced today that one part of Pauli’s statement is right, the other one wrong.

The right aspect I mentioned above. Physical and objective psychic energy are like this complementary, as described above.

This is the state of the art presented in the Pauli/Jung letters, published as Atom and Archetype in English.

Remo

[To be continued]

_________________
'Here stands the mean uncomely stone,
Tis very cheap in price!
The more it is despised by fools,
The more loved by the wise.'
(C.G. Jung, MDR, p. 253)
WebSite: http://www.paulijungunusmundus.eu


Wed Jun 07, 2006 10:07 am
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Post My extension of the energetic background:
But now the story goes on. The wrong aspect in Pauli's statement is that physical energy cannot in general transform into another form. Today, I am convinced that it can, and the other aspect I call the matter-psyche. This transformation is however not observable with the means of phyiscs. The measure for it seems to be the introverted feeling and introverted sensation functions (in contrast to Carl Jung's definition both related to one's own body, and not onto the object).

Like this we have the possibility of a transformation of what I call in a neutral language the spirit-psyche into matter-psyche.

There are by definition two possibilities of such a transformation:

A) Outer spirit-psyche transforms into matter-psyche, and

B) Inner spirit-psyche transforms into matter-psyche

A) is the transformation of physical energy into matter-psyche, and

B) is the transformation of objective psychic energy into this matter-psyche.

The matter-psyche is “inner/outer”, ie it does not obey what we call today the subject/object split (I don’t know the exact English term) (eg Zen tries to overcome, too).

In A) as well as in B) there is a re-transformation of the matter-psyche into spirit-psyche. This is what I call today the twin process. It is what Hermetic alchemy calls the Holy Wedding, and its result the infans solaris, the red tincture or the quintessence.

In all these processes there exists what I call an increase of negentropy. How this negentropy shows its yet unknown, but I am convinced that one aspect can be observed in UFO encounter.

Remo

[to be continued]

_________________
'Here stands the mean uncomely stone,
Tis very cheap in price!
The more it is despised by fools,
The more loved by the wise.'
(C.G. Jung, MDR, p. 253)
WebSite: http://www.paulijungunusmundus.eu


Wed Jun 07, 2006 10:10 am
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Post The Negentropy synchronicity of 3-6-2006:
It is a nice synchronicity that at Whitsun's saturday (3-6-2006) I began to formulate a letter to a famous physicist, in which I explained this fact of the increase of the negentropy in these processes. The idea of a negative entropy = negentropy was first postulated by the quantum physicist and Nobel laureate Erwin Schrödinger (Schrödinger equation = wave function) in his book What is Life? in 1943. The idea was heavily attacked by most other physicists. Thus it was buried.

Only some minutes after the formulation of this concept of negentropy in my letter I got an e-mail of my bookseller in which he presented to me a re-edition of June 2006 of exactly this book (in German) of 1943 (which is further my birth year).

Image

It was a further confirmation of the preconscious knowledge of the unconscious that my idea of the increase of negentropy in these processes is not too bad.

Remo

[to be continued]

_________________
'Here stands the mean uncomely stone,
Tis very cheap in price!
The more it is despised by fools,
The more loved by the wise.'
(C.G. Jung, MDR, p. 253)
WebSite: http://www.paulijungunusmundus.eu


Wed Jun 07, 2006 10:13 am
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Post Re: My extension of the energetic background:
Remo Roth wrote:
In A) as well as in B) there is a re-transformation of the matter-psyche into spirit-psyche. This is what I call today the twin process. It is what Hermetic alchemy calls the Holy Wedding, and its result the infans solaris, the red tincture or the quintessence.

In all these processes there exists what I call an increase of negentropy. How this negentropy shows its yet unknown, but I am convinced that one aspect can be observed in UFO encounter.

Remo

[to be continued]


The twin process is associated with the exchange of attributes. i guess the exchange of attributes can be considered as the acausal moment of the energetic transformation process (matter-psyche <--> spirit-psyche)?

i am thinking of one of the images from my opening dreams: (http://psychophysical.free.fr/viewtopic.php?p=156#156)

Quote:
I see an extraordinary thing happen: a blue circle appears in the sky as if created by the pressure of an outer sphere against the atmospheric sphere of the earth. Inside the circle there are 2x3 dots moving in a circular movement on themselves and arranged in 2 triangles. They tend to swap their positions too.


Roger

_________________
Fire over wood:
THE IMAGE of THE CAULDRON.
Thus the superior man consolidates his fate By making his position correct.
The fate of fire depends on wood; as long as there is wood below, the fire burns above. It is the same in human life; there is in man likewise a fate that lends power to his life. And if he succeeds in assigning the right place to life and to fate, thus bringing the two into harmony, he puts his fate on a firm footing.

I Ching #50


Last edited by Roger Faglin on Wed Jun 07, 2006 10:39 am, edited 2 times in total.



Wed Jun 07, 2006 10:25 am
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Post re: reaction
My reactions, Roger? I guess I would need to describe what I was feeling as I followed Gregories visions and attempting BCI first, that was helped after the reading of Remo's article... It is difficult to describe this feeling but I did feel better after the re-reading of the article and spending one day, sort of in a hut, like one that Eduard posted in the old thread. My wife would have told you that “it wasn’t pretty” that day being around me. To begin describing the feeling I would begin by saying or it came to my mind then, that it was like for me, a male, to be pregnant, (feeling moody, weak etc. I guess MLvF would have said "anima possession" :oops: here or would she?) Also, to use the phrase,“it is as if…,” it was as if my bones were, especially in my lower body, like radioactive core or rods, glowing or buzzing more. [I think someone dreamed about working with radioactive material somewhere in the forum]. I was especially more uneasy/queasy when it reached or spread around/near my heart and stomach area, and my arms and hands.

I am interested in hearing more about Remo’s conclusion about UFO. I guess he will update it based on his newest research along with his dreams/conclusion about UFO that it is about/related to transforming to earth/ego? (correct me if I wrong here about your said conclusion, Remo) I read recently in “Dictionary of Symbols” by Cirlot that our parts of body correspond to Air, Fire, Water, and Earth, if I recall correctly, air=head and earth=lower extremity, not sure about fire.. may be to heart, not sure about water either. For Remo, (correct me if I’m not correct here again, Remo) I guess fire and water is in the belly. I am thinking that hands and arms also belong to earth, as means of creative expression of oneself, that it is part of lower extremity?
Peace, Sang

p.s. I see that Remo has been busy and posted his reply already! I have yet to read them but I would like to post this reply to Roger now. Edit: From "A Dictionary of Symbols" by J.E. Cirlot p. 197 ".. Each part of the body relates to a corresponding part of the universe: the head corresponds to the heavens, the breath to air, the belly to the sea, the lower extremities to earth."


Last edited by Sang on Wed Jun 07, 2006 8:20 pm, edited 1 time in total.



Wed Jun 07, 2006 10:37 am
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Post Re: My extension of the energetic background:
Roger Faglin wrote:
The twin process is associated with the exchange of attributes. i guess the exchange of attributes can be considered as the acausal moment of the energetic transformation process (matter-psyche <--> spirit-psyche)?


Yes, the exchange of attributes belongs to the coniunctio, insofar as the male becomes female, et vice versa. This seems to be an acausal, spontaneous process, UFO "victims" are forced to observe (in the state of the Eros ego they alre forced into).

Quote:
i am thinking of one of the images from my opening dreams: (http://psychophysical.free.fr/viewtopic.php?p=156#156)

Quote:
I see an extraordinary thing happen: a blue circle appears in the sky as if created by the pressure of an outer sphere against the atmospheric sphere of the earth. Inside the circle there are 2x3 dots moving in a circular movement on themselves and arranged in 2 triangles. They tend to swap their positions too.



It seems that the sphere in your dream is a symbol of the (unobservable) unus mundus, and it creates together with the spheric atmosphere a "borderland", the visible part of the former. It is visible since in it there happen acausal, spontaneous exchanges of attributes, ie what I call singular quantum leaps.

I had just a similar idea:

The tunnel structure in Gregory's visions/journeys and the "steel wool" structure of Christopher's UFOs seem to show that we can perhaps state that the "intermediate realm", the "visible part" of the unus mundus -- mathematically described as the Calabi-Yau spaces of superstring theory -- is created by such tunnel structures which are however superimposed by a nonlocal structure. The tunnels would then show the conscious respectively the structure observable with the help of the logos (the atmospheric aspect of the circle in Roger's dream), the nonlocal "structures" the one with the help of the eros (the unus mundus aspect). Together they are symbolized also by the Seal of Solomon, which structure allows a transformation of spirit-psyche into matter-pyche et vice versa.

The new idea is that such "steel wool" structures exist in the belly as well as in the brain. The corresponding nonlocal structure is mostly wrongly described as a hologam. (Wrongly, since a hologram is not nonlocal). The important aspect is that such "Calabi-Yau structures" we have in the belly as well as in the brain. This would explain why many people talk of the third eye, in which the transformation takes place. It seems thus that this "altered state" of consciousness can be exist in the brain as well as in the guts.

Remo

_________________
'Here stands the mean uncomely stone,
Tis very cheap in price!
The more it is despised by fools,
The more loved by the wise.'
(C.G. Jung, MDR, p. 253)
WebSite: http://www.paulijungunusmundus.eu


Wed Jun 07, 2006 2:39 pm
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Post Roger's sphere and "Being radioactive"
Sang

Now I can come back to your sensations.

Let us assume that radioactivity produces the UFOs in the way I propose, ie that outer spirit-psyche (physical energy) is transformed into matter-psyche (which would replace the neutrino of the physical explanation), and back into spirit-psyche with increased negentropy, and that such a process shows in the UFOs.

The same process is also possible in one's inside. Thus, we have the situation that I call the "inner radioactivity" or the "inner UFO." It seems you, Sang, experience such a process. You seem to fall or mostly be in the state of the "altered consciousness", in which you observe the above "sphere" of Roger's dream, the borderland between the unus mundus and the ego, between the Central Nervous System's experience of the body and the one of the Vegetative Nervous system. Thus you are highly "radioactive," which means that this transformative energy is highly constellated in you.

As I told you personally, I guess that this means that in you the healer, the shaman is highly constellated. I guess I am allowed to tell here in public that also Eduard, our professional shaman and healer, knows this state in extremis. It is the state and the energy he heals with.

Remo

_________________
'Here stands the mean uncomely stone,
Tis very cheap in price!
The more it is despised by fools,
The more loved by the wise.'
(C.G. Jung, MDR, p. 253)
WebSite: http://www.paulijungunusmundus.eu


Wed Jun 07, 2006 2:54 pm
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Post Tears of Happyness
I guess I owe all of you (and the guests) the following remark:

In writing the above statement about Sang's and Eduard's situation I began to cry. Tears of sublime happiness accompanied by the deep feeling of having found the deepest meaning of my life. For this moment I suffered and was humiliated for more than 33 years. To experience this moment I had to do my research in extreme loneliness, but now I feel that the fruit is ripe, and that I can go out into the world -- together with my feelings which I feel to be obliged to show together with my research results.

All this belongs to my personal equation.

Now I can also greet you with Sang's greetings: Peace!

Remo

PS: See also thread http://unus-mundus.fr/viewtopic.php?t=166 in the HEALING forum

_________________
'Here stands the mean uncomely stone,
Tis very cheap in price!
The more it is despised by fools,
The more loved by the wise.'
(C.G. Jung, MDR, p. 253)
WebSite: http://www.paulijungunusmundus.eu


Last edited by Remo Roth on Thu Jun 08, 2006 9:21 pm, edited 3 times in total.



Wed Jun 07, 2006 3:12 pm
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Post Re: My extension of the energetic background:
Remo Roth wrote:
The new idea is that such "steel wool" structures exist in the belly as well as in the brain. The corresponding nonlocal structure is mostly wrongly described as a hologam. (Wrongly, since a hologram is not nonlocal). The important aspect is that such "Calabi-Yau structures" we have in the belly as well as in the brain. This would explain why many people talk of the third eye, in which the transformation takes place. It seems thus that this "altered state" of consciousness can be exist in the brain as well as in the guts.

Remo


Thus it also explains in some way inner and outer phenomena. I will TRY to explain my insight.
The head brain we associate with thinking-Logos.
Some people who are not aware of another consciousness are caught in the UFO phenomenology we consider as an outer forced incarnatio way.
The gut brain we associate with introverted feeling intuition/sensation-Eros. People who leave the head brain to sollicit the gut brain are the seat of inner acausal inner incarnatio phenomenon.
Now is there a way to 'have' the Cabali-Yau structures in both brains in relation. That would mean something like thinking as a mere un-willing tool at the service of the introverted linking in a sort of permanrnt way?
Where could this lead to? Some inner/outer incarnatio? The cherry trees blossoming on the path of the Buddha? The healer healing un-willingly?

Am I completely off track?

Roger

PS: I had not read Remo's post just above mine for I was writing mine. Let me share some tears Remo...

_________________
Fire over wood:
THE IMAGE of THE CAULDRON.
Thus the superior man consolidates his fate By making his position correct.
The fate of fire depends on wood; as long as there is wood below, the fire burns above. It is the same in human life; there is in man likewise a fate that lends power to his life. And if he succeeds in assigning the right place to life and to fate, thus bringing the two into harmony, he puts his fate on a firm footing.

I Ching #50


Wed Jun 07, 2006 3:14 pm
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Post wordless..
Remo,
I am wordless at the moment... yes, may God's wonderful peace be with you!

As for me, I think the word would be and still is 'courage'...
I want to share that my middle name, written in Chinese means 'Peace'.

Peace, Sang...


Wed Jun 07, 2006 8:07 pm
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Post Re: wordless..
Sang wrote:
Remo,
I am wordless at the moment... yes, may God's wonderful peace be with you!

As for me, I think the word would be and still is 'courage'...
I want to share that my middle name, written in Chinese means 'Peace'.

Peace, Sang...


Thanks a lot, Sang

I am still very excited about the spontaneous reaction of yesterday. It seems that I had hit the center. For the moment I cannot yet think about all this, but I feel that my intuitive insight was right.

Yes, one needs a lot of courage to accept such very weird corporeal sensations as yours. My experience (and the one of others in this forum) is however that it is the best way just to let it happen and not try to resist them.

I am not a prophet, but I think that you experience more or less as the first in public what will happen in many people in the near future. Then, they will need help since the inner experiences are so weird that they are happy to know that they are not alone with them.

It's a pity that you cannot read my article in German with the title Das UFO trägst du in deinem Bauch [You wear the UFO in your belly (???); http://www.psychovision.ch/ufnw/ufobauch.htm ], where I describe such experiences of a woman patient about 10 years ago. It was then that I began to realize that all these UFO/radioacitvity processes can also happen in one's own body and belly.

Remo

_________________
'Here stands the mean uncomely stone,
Tis very cheap in price!
The more it is despised by fools,
The more loved by the wise.'
(C.G. Jung, MDR, p. 253)
WebSite: http://www.paulijungunusmundus.eu


Thu Jun 08, 2006 8:59 am
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Post Re: wordless..
Remo Roth wrote:
Yes, one needs a lot of courage to accept such very weird corporeal sensations as yours. My experience (and the one of others in this forum) is however that it is the best way just to let it happen and not try to resist them.

Remo


OK, let's go:

June 7th, circa 6:00 PM The indigo child

I am standing between two big fir trees in my garden. (Kristin, Eduard: :wink:)

I go down, eyes open.

First the name ‘Pegasus’
Then I see Pegasus flying.
Then I am Pegasus flying. I can feel my wings flapping.
Then the World Soul is on my back.
Then I am myself standing in the garden. I have wings. They are folded, I can feel, sense, them.
Then I feel the earth under my feet. A wave comes up. I vibrate intensely with it, and I feel my feet like they belong to the earth, like some sort of roots.
The sensation is extraordinarily intense: Roger standing between the trees, his wings folded, his feet rooted and the energy wave vibrating.
It is son intense that a strong emotion seizes me and tears fill my eyes.
This is too much: I stop for a few seconds.
Then I go back. I feel the same thing.
Then I see my rounded belly. It opens and a baby comes out.
A voice: ‘It’s a boy this time!’(This alludes to another vision where the baby was an androgyne.)
Now I see the baby close to my eyes. He is more mature than a new born.
He is blue.


This happened as I was still full of what happened yesterday in this thread...


Roger

PS: on posting the above, the I Ching gave me 45 --> 8 by the fourth line.

_________________
Fire over wood:
THE IMAGE of THE CAULDRON.
Thus the superior man consolidates his fate By making his position correct.
The fate of fire depends on wood; as long as there is wood below, the fire burns above. It is the same in human life; there is in man likewise a fate that lends power to his life. And if he succeeds in assigning the right place to life and to fate, thus bringing the two into harmony, he puts his fate on a firm footing.

I Ching #50


Thu Jun 08, 2006 9:35 am
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Post gift of grace
Roger

As Sang, I feel now speechless. What a dream. Roger in the Sacred Grove - 'a meeting place'. RECOVERY as in I Ching #45: the fever has led to the cure. Homeopathy - injected with the difficulty you recover the essential - the new born (but mature) indigo child! ( a twin to Gregorys girl child? )

With all of what Remo feels too, the release which allows him to 'show the fruit', and all of what Sang has expressed, this is just remarkable.


Blessings!
Kristin

(yes, there must be a way to have the Cabali-Yau in the brain and the gut brain 'in relation', as you postulate above! In this respect, the ancient ones always bring in the element of 'prana' and 'the breath'...The sacred 'stone' lies in the pineal gland, it is said, and the life-giving breath arises comes from out of the gut center (chakras 3 and 4), our athanor - . To bring the two together we must create flow within the temple of our bodies, and therewith the creation of the 'subtle body' - with it's inherant connection to the Unus Mundus, is just possible... I wonder..)

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Thu Jun 08, 2006 6:45 pm
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Post Re: gift of grace
kristin wrote:
Roger

As Sang, I feel now speechless. What a dream. Roger in the Sacred Grove - 'a meeting place'. RECOVERY as in I Ching #45: the fever has led to the cure. Homeopathy - injected with the difficulty you recover the essential - the new born (but mature) indigo child! ( a twin to Gregorys girl child? )

With all of what Remo feels too, the release which allows him to 'show the fruit', and all of what Sang has expressed, this is just remarkable.


Blessings!
Kristin

(yes, there must be a way to have the Cabali-Yau in the brain and the gut brain 'in relation', as you postulate above! In this respect, the ancient ones always bring in the element of 'prana' and 'the breath'...The sacred 'stone' lies in the pineal gland, it is said, and the life-giving breath arises comes from out of the gut center (chakras 3 and 4), our athanor - . To bring the two together we must create flow within the temple of our bodies, and therewith the creation of the 'subtle body' - with it's inherant connection to the Unus Mundus, is just possible... I wonder..)


Kristin,

your amplifications are always welcome.

Just a detail: it was not a dream: it was something I experienced in Eros consciousness. I 'really' was in my garden between the fir trees, and then I went down...

Roger

_________________
Fire over wood:
THE IMAGE of THE CAULDRON.
Thus the superior man consolidates his fate By making his position correct.
The fate of fire depends on wood; as long as there is wood below, the fire burns above. It is the same in human life; there is in man likewise a fate that lends power to his life. And if he succeeds in assigning the right place to life and to fate, thus bringing the two into harmony, he puts his fate on a firm footing.

I Ching #50


Fri Jun 09, 2006 6:20 am
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Post Re: wordless..
Roger Faglin wrote:
I vibrate intensely with it, and I feel my feet like they belong to the earth, like some sort of roots.
The sensation is extraordinarily intense: Roger standing between the trees, his wings folded, his feet rooted and the energy wave vibrating.

Roger




Now how did/do I react to such an experience?

It is always very important for me, vital in fact, to keep it cool: as cool as one can stay in front of facts. I guess this is the meaning of the rooted feet. What would be the use of a canal with only one extremity fixed?
The immediate danger is always to be be overflowed and somewhere to try and keep some bits for oneself. Then the process is spoiled.
This is also the 'reason' why I spontaneously stopped for a few seconds: up to the brim but never further, or just a bit if it is necessary (one has to feel that, of course).

I did not try to extract a meaning either. Things happen, it is an inner quantum leap. A transformation, an incarnatio, takes place, and the only way is to let it flow, let it be... And now it's yours...

Or so it is what I've learnt through all these years...

Roger

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Fire over wood:
THE IMAGE of THE CAULDRON.
Thus the superior man consolidates his fate By making his position correct.
The fate of fire depends on wood; as long as there is wood below, the fire burns above. It is the same in human life; there is in man likewise a fate that lends power to his life. And if he succeeds in assigning the right place to life and to fate, thus bringing the two into harmony, he puts his fate on a firm footing.

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Fri Jun 09, 2006 6:32 am
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Post The Indigo Child
Roger Faglin wrote:
I did not try to extract a meaning either. Things happen, it is an inner quantum leap. A transformation, an incarnatio, takes place, and the only way is to let it flow, let it be... And now it's yours...Roger


Roger & All

I'm neither interpreting. Only this:

The new born indigo child could perhaps be this attitude of just observing these really weird sensations without interpreting. At least at first. It is the emotional experience which is important. Like this it was also with my experience. If I had suddenly begun to interpret, I had missed the deep feeling, the feeling of being the instrument of a new incarnation.

It seems that this is what women can do much better. We men always need an interpretation, a "meaning" (even if it is completely wrong), but women just are happy if they have given birth to such a new little child ...

Can you imagine that a woman after having given birth to a child begins to think about the meaning of her birth? I guess like this we should look at these events.

"Become like children..."

Remo

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Tis very cheap in price!
The more it is despised by fools,
The more loved by the wise.'
(C.G. Jung, MDR, p. 253)
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Fri Jun 09, 2006 6:51 am
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Post Re: The Indigo Child
Remo Roth wrote:
Roger Faglin wrote:
Can you imagine that a woman after having given birth to a child begins to think about the meaning of her birth? I guess like this we should look at these events.

"Become like children..."

Remo


Yep...

and thus it grows up and lives, and transforms, radiates...

Roger

_________________
Fire over wood:
THE IMAGE of THE CAULDRON.
Thus the superior man consolidates his fate By making his position correct.
The fate of fire depends on wood; as long as there is wood below, the fire burns above. It is the same in human life; there is in man likewise a fate that lends power to his life. And if he succeeds in assigning the right place to life and to fate, thus bringing the two into harmony, he puts his fate on a firm footing.

I Ching #50


Fri Jun 09, 2006 6:57 am
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Post The Interpretation Delusion
It is this interpretation delusion I critisize today at the psychoanalytical way of dealing with these things. Interpreting is always something causal. One likes to find out the connection between the content of a dream and the theory one has in mind. This goes so far that one gives symbols a one-to-one relation to their"interpretations:" Long always means Penis, round and hollow means Vagina, and so on. Look at any dream symbol's book and you know what I mean.

This is why the association is so important to me. A good association is like an inner quantum leap. Something in your emotions and feelings is deeply touched -- and only like this a real interpretation (perhaps much later) is possible. Further this interpretation happens itself. Suddenly, perhaps years after the dream, one sees the meaning. Without this association process one begins to think about the dream. Conscious thinking is however always a causal attitude. Like this one destroys the emotional content of the dream. It becomes meaningless, since it only confirms one's prejudices. But many people earn much money like this ...

Remo

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'Here stands the mean uncomely stone,
Tis very cheap in price!
The more it is despised by fools,
The more loved by the wise.'
(C.G. Jung, MDR, p. 253)
WebSite: http://www.paulijungunusmundus.eu


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Post Re: The Interpretation Delusion
Remo Roth wrote:
This is why the association is so important to me. A good association is like an inner quantum leap. Something in your emotions and feelings is deeply touched -- and only like this a real interpretation (perhaps much later) is possible. Further this interpretation happens itself. Suddenly, perhaps years after the dream, one sees the meaning. Without this association process one begins to think about the dream. Conscious thinking is however always a causal attitude. Like this one destroys the emotional content of the dream. It becomes meaningless.

Remo


Yes again.

When it has grown enough, and it can sometimes takes years, then an illumination happens. And I have noticed that when such an illumination takes place, I very quickly forget the meaning part I grasped while the feeling of bliss (transformation) stays much longer...

Roger

_________________
Fire over wood:
THE IMAGE of THE CAULDRON.
Thus the superior man consolidates his fate By making his position correct.
The fate of fire depends on wood; as long as there is wood below, the fire burns above. It is the same in human life; there is in man likewise a fate that lends power to his life. And if he succeeds in assigning the right place to life and to fate, thus bringing the two into harmony, he puts his fate on a firm footing.

I Ching #50


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Post Love, Love, Love ...
And this is perhaps why so many people in our forum are talking of love as the only "ingredient" we need ...

Remo

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'Here stands the mean uncomely stone,
Tis very cheap in price!
The more it is despised by fools,
The more loved by the wise.'
(C.G. Jung, MDR, p. 253)
WebSite: http://www.paulijungunusmundus.eu


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Post Re: Love, Love, Love ...
Remo Roth wrote:
And this is perhaps why so many people in our forum are talking of love as the only "ingredient" we need ...

Remo


:D :D :D

Roger

_________________
Fire over wood:
THE IMAGE of THE CAULDRON.
Thus the superior man consolidates his fate By making his position correct.
The fate of fire depends on wood; as long as there is wood below, the fire burns above. It is the same in human life; there is in man likewise a fate that lends power to his life. And if he succeeds in assigning the right place to life and to fate, thus bringing the two into harmony, he puts his fate on a firm footing.

I Ching #50


Fri Jun 09, 2006 7:09 am
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Post 
I am moved to tears.

Ryan

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Fri Jun 30, 2006 9:27 am
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Post psychophysical landscape?
All

The following is a small painting done by my sister Lisa. I'm posting it because it is in my document cache. We thought it would be of interest and felt it might belong here on this thread. It was made in 2000. The landscape is recreated from a Giotto fresco, and the original figures in the piece were those of Mary with baby Jesus on a donkey accompanied by an entourage. This is interesting because Lisa wanted to use the backdrop but never gave much thought til now to the theme of the original painting in relation to the image she substituted for it. She says she wasn't thinking at all when she made it, it was virtually a channelled piece.

We have our own observations and speculations regarding the painting, but want to see what your reactions are first. We feel that some of the symbolic features here touch on several themes discussed on this thread but also relate to so much that has been written elsewhere on the forum.

Image


best,
Kristin and Lisa

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Tue Apr 17, 2007 6:54 am
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Post 
An image can say it all, by-passing the intellect and reaching the gut.
Explanations, like mentioned with the dreams, pass quickly into the past but the image will live inside for the rest of one's life, if it has something to say.
Thank you Lisa.


Tue Apr 17, 2007 11:08 am
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Post Returning
The picture brings to mind a psycholocal theme I was thinking about a lot several years ago: That we are dreaming of Returning to Earth now much as we dreamed of Going To Space in the 1950s. This theme pervades the pop culture as well as a manifestation of the Collective Unconscious. The remarkable TV show "Lost" is a "returning to earth" myth. All of those "Survivor" shows are "returning to earth" myths. It is almost exactly like UFO fiction was in the 1950s: we go to a planet but it is new and strange and filled with straange psychic mystery. But the planet is Earth and we come back - to paraphrase T.S. Eliot, as if to know the place for the first time. Clarice has had "returning to earth" dreams and so have I and my Australian (woman) Friend (AF) has as well. It is Andromeda, lost in space while the two Twin Fish fight it out in the Age of Pisces. Here is AF's dreams - one of the last in a year long sequence:

I am outside the earth’s atmosphere, or in another realm.
I am sitting in a tree that is growing there.
It has leaves made of thin gold foil, and it looks
like a cherry tree. I don’t want to be there, the sun
shines all the time, there is never any night - it
feels surreal and I want to get home, or to earth,
I feel I should not be there. I try to climb down,
but every move I make takes me further up the tree,
not down. I decide that the only way to get down is
to jump - I think that this must be my destiny, and
if this is so, God will not let me die. Next to me
I find a piece of rope that is made of three ropes
twisted together. I pick it up and it is alive, and
purple and pulsating. I jump out of the tree, holding
this live, pulsating rope. I am falling into the
atmosphere and the wind is rushing past me, I am falling
like a skydiver without a parachute, freefalling. I look
up at the sky now and it is a beautiful combination of
pink, blue and purple, like a magnificent sunrise.
I also see that the rope that I am holding is attached
to the sky. I know eventually that it will pull me to
a stop if I keep hold of it. Every thing goes black
suddenly, but I am still aware, I am not dead, I rest
for a while. Then I see a light. It is as if I am
looking through a window into a light room from the
darkness. I see a dresser in the room, and I think
to myself 'this is my grandfathers dresser', I watch
the room for a while. Then suddenly my whole body
feels pressure, and there is pressure on the top
of my head. I am pushed past this pressure and
I suddenly see a baby being born, and I hear a
baby's cry and then I realise that the baby is me
and it is me that is crying and I am the baby -
I sense that I am a boy and my self awareness fades
and I become the baby and I am crying.

Kind of a beautiful thing. I wrote an essay called "Returning" about this phenomenon (below). As I was writing, one of my little boys who is always doin stuff like this was drawing this picture of an "eye in the sky" returning to earth (or coming out of the ocean).
http://quigleyinexile.blogspot.com/2005 ... ey-in.html
Image


Thu Apr 19, 2007 8:05 pm
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Post Background of this picture
What is also interesting about this picture is the background that your sister chose. Giotto and Sassetta in the 13th thereabout centuries so perfectly express the Earth as Mother. It was from this platform from which the West rose in opposition to the Mother and in opposition to the Earth. In Lisa's picture the Mother returns to the same era from which she left. This goes along with my AF's dreams - they were sometimes set in the 13th century.

Image
Image


Thu Apr 19, 2007 11:24 pm
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Post 
Thanks for responding Bernie and Scott. I like the idea that my picture represents the longing to return to earth, the mother. It does seem that the figure is landing rather than about to ascend. I also was interested Bernie in your discussion of the 13th century landscape. It was definitely an integral part of religious art at that time. I was very moved by Giottos frescos in Assissi. They are so human. I especially love the one of St. Francis and the birds.

Some of things that strike me about this image are: The energy around the body ( I can hear it emitting a tone), the pose being reminiscent of DaVincis "Man", and the quantity of each symbol: One body, two hills, three UFO's, and four trees (whatever that may mean).

Maybe we aren't just returning to earth but are the original " aliens" on this planet.

I also have the feeling that the large ball of energy over the head represents the body itself prior to "landing".

Thanks also Bernie for posting that beautiful dream. I guess we all need to take that "leap of faith" in order to return "home".

Love,
Lisa

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Tue Apr 24, 2007 7:51 pm
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Post We are the Aliens
Lisa - RE "Maybe we aren't just returning to earth but are the original " aliens" on this planet." That's what Madame Blavatsky said. She wrote of time going in both directions and instead of us evolving from the apes, we have evolved from light beings of the future and are descending to the apes and beyond (both directions). I became interested in her two years ago when I was talking to my Australion Woman Friend (AWF) about her dreams. She was having dreams about "Twins" and I emailed her some pictures of Sananda and Kumara, the Celestial Twins of Lemuria. Blavatsky wrote that these are the Twins (Jesus and John in Pisces) who accompany cosmic change and they come from the mythical land of Lemuria. My AWF was dreaming for six months of the earth giving birth - it gave birth in her dream in the week of the tsunami, which came from the same spot on the map as mythical Lemuria. Einstein's neice said Einstein kept a copy of Madame Blavatsky's "The Secret Doctrine" on his desk at the Princeton Institute. I tried it but couldn't understand it. Too mathematical. I fact, the great "Ring of Fire" videos by the brothers Lawrence and Lorne Blair have episodes of tribes in Indonesia - in the same area - where the tribal huts are shaped like space ships and the Creation Myths have it that their ancectors came from the stars.


Wed Apr 25, 2007 1:36 am
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Post Re: psychophysical landscape?
kristin wrote:
Image


Lisa & Kristin

Thank you Lisa, that you posted this image. I'd like to give some interpretative thoughts with the help of the number symbolism.

3 means energy. There are three UFOs. Thus, the image talks about the "UFO energy." This is nothing else than what I described at the beginning of the thread as the matter-psyche, the other aspect of the bipolar energy term proposed by me.

This energy is in the sky -- the usual UFO phenomenology -- but also in the mountain, the earth. However, it is also in the body of the Vitruvius Man (Leonardo). With #5 the Vitruvius symbolizes matter, materialization. Thus, the third UFO means that in the human body the transformation (which I described above, at the beginning) can take place. It is the human body, in which the "inner UFO" (as I call it) is created.

Of course this process is your way to do Body-Centered Imagination.

What I'd like to stress here is the difference between esoterics (Blavatsky et al), which projects all these phenomena into "mother earth," which is of course in the outside, in nature. If we do this, which means we talk about "mother earth" too much in the Logos, we do not realize that the real process has to happen in ourselves, in our bodies (mostly in the belly, as much as I can see). Otherwise we become esoterics, which talk much about all this but do not have an inner bodily experience. This is why I stress Body-Centered Imagination so much: It becomes the empirical experience of the transformation process instead of all this esoteric twaddle.

Since the inner bodily experience, the transformation into the "UFO energy" and its re-transformation into physical energy with increased negentropy (higher "life essence") is "inner/outer," is what I call also psychophysically nonlocal, with the help of such inner transformation processes also the outer world is changed in a constructive way. This is the Hermetic alchemical motif of the gilding of the whole surrounding by the goal of the opus, the philosophical gold. It is the birth of the so-called infans solaris (which is however not a sun's child, but the child of the intermediary realm between Heaven and earth), or the distillation of the red tincture out of the lapis the stone (which is the human body).

Already Wolfgang Pauli realized that symbolically seen the red tincture and physical radioactivity have very similar attributes ... the UFO/radioactivity connection, which we have to realize into ourselves.

The same motif we find in the so-called tikkun of Isaak Luria's cabbala (see end of http://www.psychovision.ch/ufnw/egeln_chap13_roth.htm ):

EVERY HUMAN BEING ASSISTS THE GODHEAD WITH THE REVERSAL OF THE DESTRUCTION OF THE WORLD'S CREATION


And Carl Jung's comment:


'HERE THE THOUGHT EMERGES FOR THE FIRST TIME THAT MAN MUST HELP GOD TO REPAIR THE DAMAGE WROUGHT BY THE CREATION. FOR THE FIRST TIME MAN'S COSMIC RESPONSIBILITY IS ACKNOWLEDGED.'


Kristin, yes, I would say that Lisa painted the psychophysical landscape.

Remo

_________________
'Here stands the mean uncomely stone,
Tis very cheap in price!
The more it is despised by fools,
The more loved by the wise.'
(C.G. Jung, MDR, p. 253)
WebSite: http://www.paulijungunusmundus.eu


Wed Apr 25, 2007 6:03 am
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Post Re: We are the Aliens
Bernie Quigley wrote:
Lisa - RE "Maybe we aren't just returning to earth but are the original " aliens" on this planet." That's what Madame Blavatsky said. She wrote of time going in both directions and instead of us evolving from the apes, we have evolved from light beings of the future and are descending to the apes and beyond (both directions).


Bernie

This is exactly the projection into matter, what I talked of. We have to "translate" this into a depth psychological and psychophysical language. "Ape" means like this the body, but since we have to come down it means the body observed with the help of the "earth ego," the Eros consciousness. Most esoterics, however, stay in the head, like this use the "language of the head," however with a strange pseudo-logic. The language of the heart and of the guts is however not pseudo-logic but a-logic. It expresses itself with the help of inner images, which IMO mostly come out of the belly.

Thus, esoterics talk for example of "higher frequencies" without telling us how they look like. They remain in the physical/materialistic language and cannot enter the symbolic language. Symbolically seen, "frequency" -- the eternal up and down -- means a potential state, which has not yet really incarnated into "our world." Thus, symbolically seen "frequency" means "not yet incarnated," "still remaining in the Beyond."

This is why, for example, the main equation of quantum physics is called the -- wave function (Waves are determined by frequencies). It describes the yet potential state, in which for example a radioactive atom is before its decay. When it decays, there is no wave function anymore, the wave function "collapsed," as they say.

In my psychophysical language this potential state is the result of the first of the twin process. Spirit-psyche (objective psychic energy of Jung or physical energy) transforms into matter-psyche, the energy of the unus mundus or of the Beyond. The latter state is comparable with the quantum physical wave function.

It is this process, which is according to my hypothesis provoked by the artificial fission of the atom. We "produce" many "frequencies" in the Beyond, many potential states, many potential "lifes." This is why certain visions tell us that the deceased will come back. This comeback is the unconscious realization of the second process of the twin process, a reincarnation. This happens in UFO encounter, and especially in UFO abduction phenomena.

Our task is therefore, to consciously "collapse" the wave function (the incredibly increased potential life in the Beyond, which we created with the help of the artificial fission of the atom). This is the tikkun mentioned above (or the observation of the coniunctio in the language of Hermetic alchemy.) More exactly we have not to collapse it by will, but only to observe the moments when the "psychophysical wave function" collapses. The collapse becomes visible and experiencable in the image of the BCI, and if this happens in the (Eros) consciousness of an individual, it has changed something in an acausal way. Since this process is acausal, ie there is no cause which effects the effect, it is an incarnation process. Something completely new, never seen or experienced before, has been created (by the World Soul, the "queen of the unus mundus").

As much as I can see, in dreams and visions this process is mostly symbolized as the transformation of an oscillation into a rotation. Wolfgang Pauli's dreams are full of this symbolism. He was however not yet able to understand it on the psychophysical level, since he (and also Carl Jung) did not yet realize what I call the Eros ego.

In contrast to the oscillation a rotation is an asymmetrical process. This means that the "eternal up and down" without any progress transforms into an event in which a progress happens. This means further that it is a process in spacetime, in "our world", since time in spacetime is directed (time arrow!). This means that something with a beginning and an end has been created -- new life?

Remo

_________________
'Here stands the mean uncomely stone,
Tis very cheap in price!
The more it is despised by fools,
The more loved by the wise.'
(C.G. Jung, MDR, p. 253)
WebSite: http://www.paulijungunusmundus.eu


Last edited by Remo Roth on Thu Apr 26, 2007 2:26 am, edited 1 time in total.



Wed Apr 25, 2007 1:11 pm
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Post 
It is funny, but exactly now I try to describe Carl Jung's incredibly important discovery of the symbol during his "night sea journey" in 1913 to 1918. He tries to describe this change in Psychological Types, but I never really understood what he means.

Your "Blavatsky thing" immediately opened my eyes. What Jung discovered is the symbolic thinking, which I can now describe in my ms. It is like this how he began to interpret the dreams after 1913 (and not with the help of Freud's prejudice anymore that everything that is round and hollow "symbolizes" the vagina, everything that is long the penis).

However, I also realized that there exists also a symbolic sensation. The image of BCI is the symbol sensated by the vegetative sensation, the inner sensation organ, which describes the state of our body and its symptoms with the help of these inner images out of the VNS.

AI uses the symbolism in Carl Jung's definition, ie the symbolic thinking. BCI, however, uses the vegetative symbolism realized with the help of the vegetative sensation, the sensation function of the vegetative nervous system (and not with the help of the CNS and the brain).

For a long time I did not see this difference, but intuitively worked with the vegetative sensation symbolism (actually since I discovered BCI with the help of a Multiple Sclerosis patient in 1988; Actually I already discovered BCI with perhaps 7 years, in the cast in Davos, but forgot everything later, up until my big life crisis in 1972/73). Now I realize that this way to define the symbol and deal with it is completely different to Jung's.

Remo

_________________
'Here stands the mean uncomely stone,
Tis very cheap in price!
The more it is despised by fools,
The more loved by the wise.'
(C.G. Jung, MDR, p. 253)
WebSite: http://www.paulijungunusmundus.eu


Wed Apr 25, 2007 1:40 pm
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