UNUS MUNDUS

The UNUS MUNDUS forum of Psychovision (Remo F. Roth) invites discussion of theoretical and practical issues of a possible union of Carl Jung's depth psychology with quantum physical principles.
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 Invasion 
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Post Invasion
Sorry---the Trickster you know!


Hi Remo.

You said:"I do not know how you interpret your dreams. But mostly this is done much to "masculine", i.e., with the Logos. The feminine way is, IMO, to include a real association's part."

I agree totally.

You said:"Yes, show us your dream. If you like we could discuss it in public. However, you should always be conscious about the fact that there are some dreams one should not show in public."

Yes.

The dream:


I had this dream the night after the Marion Woodman workshop. I attended her workshop on "Embodied Soul." I think it is very important and speaks to something new emerging from the collective unconscious.


"I am in an open field. I look up into the sky and see
something hurtling down towards the earth. It lands in
the ground. Then there's another and another and I
realize it's an invasion. I look at one and it's in
the shape of a dinosaur's head with zig zag markings
around the neck. It's a solid piece of plastic. I rush
down to my place; I've got to pick up the kids from
school. There are cleaners (people cleaning) in my
apartment. I look for my key to the door but it's not
on my key chain. I ask a man if he's got it and he
says no. Then I'm laying down next to Tom Cruise and
we're chatting about a letter I had sent him. A
military woman comes in, catches us and is furious.
Then I see Tom Cruise witth a woman with red hair, his
wife I presume, and they are fighting bitterly. She
storms out and I want to comfort Tom, but I don't know
if I do or not."

associations: Something emerging violently from the
unconscious. It is a paradox in that it is primordial
nature( the dinosaur head) and plastic ( man man
unnatural material.) I don't feel afraid, however.
Somehow I've lost the key to the door.

I immediately associated the invasion and Tom Cruise
to the movie he was in called "War of the World" or
something like that. I've had dreams about Tom Cruise
before and see him as a puer but I'm not particularly
attracted to him.

The military woman comes from the collective
consciousness - she's masculine and authoritative.

The woman with the red hair could be a passionate,
lively extraverted side of me. I have no other
connection as of now.


This is the active imagination I had later.



" I'm on the boat going up the Acheron. We arrive at the field and I walk across to the road. I approach the Nekromanteion and off to the right is my path. I walk on the dirt, the cypress trees are green and still. I arrive at the Chironian and find it closed up by a wooden door. There's a key hole and I wonder where the key is. How am I going to get in? This is the first time the entrance has been barred.

I begin to walk in the woods. Where's Chiron, where's Pan? It's almost 12 oclock. Will Pan appear to me? Up ahead is a spring, Artemis's spring. I sit by it, my feet dangling in the water.

Oh great God Pan will you appear? He appears playing his flute. He sits down beside me.

Oh Pan I feel as if I'm drying up as a woman. I feel old as if I've been put on a shelf.

He continues to play the flute. Animals appear on all sides to hear Pan play. Pan and I begin to dance.

I want to meet the woman with the red hair who fights with Tom Cruise. She comes twirling out, dressed in red, with red shoes, hair flaming, lips full bodied. She dances, clasps her hands, stomps her feet. She's the gypsy in me.

Oh lady of the flaming red hair, why did you fight with Tom Cruise and storm out?

Lady: Because he was laying down with you, not me. I am your passionate gypsy side and he rejected me.

Frances: Perhaps, but you're part of me. So is the military woman. I need both of you to be part of me. What can I do to integrate the two of you? Military woman, will you join us?

Military woman: There are rules and regulations and you have no right laying down next to a married man.

Frances: We were just talking, that's all.

Military woman: Yea, but you wanted more! Rules and regulations are patriarchal and no longer apply in your life. Let me take off this uniform and put on the garb of the gypsy woman.

The two merge and come over to me.

Frances, we're different parts of you that you need to integrate more. Come let's all dance together. Out of breath we sit down to listen to the pipes of Pan. It's time to return to the upper world so I say goodbye to all. End.



Thank you for any insights.

Frances.


Sat Mar 11, 2006 10:15 pm
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Post Re: Invasion
Frances Gilley wrote:
Dream
"I am in an open field. I look up into the sky and see
something hurtling down towards the earth. It lands in
the ground. Then there's another and another and I
realize it's an invasion. I look at one and it's in
the shape of a dinosaur's head with zig zag markings
around the neck. It's a solid piece of plastic. I rush
down to my place; I've got to pick up the kids from
school. There are cleaners (people cleaning) in my
apartment. I look for my key to the door but it's not
on my key chain. I ask a man if he's got it and he
says no. Then I'm laying down next to Tom Cruise and
we're chatting about a letter I had sent him. A
military woman comes in, catches us and is furious.
Then I see Tom Cruise witth a woman with red hair, his
wife I presume, and they are fighting bitterly. She
storms out and I want to comfort Tom, but I don't know
if I do or not."


Sorry, Francis, but you do not associate. You think about the dream. Just as I said before, in the thread "Rainbow", post "Pots", this is linear masculine thinking. You stay in the dream and just think a little further. This is wrong. Pauli would say: "This is not even wrong!"

Let's do it now in the feminine way: Jump out of your dream, forget it first. Note the words below on a sheet of paper (do not write directly on the PC). And then tell us what comes first in your mind with the following words (personal memories of situations, events, etc.):

invasion

dinosaur

plastic

cleaners

key

Tom Cruise

military woman

red hair

Perhaps then we can have a look at the dream.

Remo

_________________
'Here stands the mean uncomely stone,
Tis very cheap in price!
The more it is despised by fools,
The more loved by the wise.'
(C.G. Jung, MDR, p. 253)
WebSite: http://www.paulijungunusmundus.eu


Sun Mar 12, 2006 8:52 am
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Post Become stupid
It is important that we really become stupid! Also if it seems very clear what the dream means -- it does exactly not mean that! -- we should look at it as if it were written in a foreign language. Then we try to decipher it. This is one of the reasons why my motto is:

Quote:
The most useful lesson life has given me is that the fools often are right (Winston Churchill)


Remo

_________________
'Here stands the mean uncomely stone,
Tis very cheap in price!
The more it is despised by fools,
The more loved by the wise.'
(C.G. Jung, MDR, p. 253)
WebSite: http://www.paulijungunusmundus.eu


Sun Mar 12, 2006 8:56 am
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Post 
Hi remo.

I wasn't able to post this earlier so I saved it by sending an e-mail to Roger. Hopefully I have solved my problem now so I copied it back here.






Remo you said:"
Sorry, Francis, but you do not associate. You think
about the dream. Just as I said before, in the thread
"Rainbow", post "Pots", this is linear masculine
thinking. You stay in the dream and just think a
little further. This is wrong. Pauli would say: "This
is not even wrong!"

Remo I respect your expertise even though I don't
fully grasp why you say I'm not making associations.

I did not post all of my associations earlier so I'll
do what you suggest now. I didn't realize you wanted
me to post all of the detaiks.

Invasion:

To be invaded by something. Usually a negative
experience. War of the World with Tom Cruise.
Something coming from another dimension. I felt
invaded by cars, the tv, large stores, the media when
I returned here.

Dinosaur:

Primordial, primitive ancient creature, now extinct.
Something coming from the primive instinctual side of
me that perhaps I'm out of touch with. Getting back to
basics. If I met one face to face I would be
petrified.

Plastic:

Artificial man-made product. Something flexible. Very
useful under the right circumstances.

Cleaners:

Cleaners work in the psyche, doing the shadow work.
One can be "taken to the cleaners." A Telesphoros
aspect.

Key:

The key opens doors to other dimensions and
possibilities. The answer to a problem. A threshold
aspect. In this dream it's not available so the work
must go on.

Tom Cruise.

Actor, extraverted masculine. He plays a part so is
probably not authentic in who he is. I've had several
dreams with him before but I don't find him
particularly attractive. In the limelight which is
something I would dislike very much. I see the puer in
him and that attracts me.

Military woman:

She's the authoritative, principled, obey orders part
of me. I was raised in this way, by obeying the law
and doing what I was told to do.

Red haired woman:

The gypsy part of me. The side that's passionate,
Dionesian, opposite of the military woman. She's
outspoken and shows her anger, both aspects which are
a problem for me.


You did not say anything about the active imagination
which I feel answers some question about the part both
of these women play.

Thank you for your interest.

Yasu Frances.

http://www.temenosgreece.com
Covina California, USA


Tue Mar 14, 2006 9:37 pm
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Post 
Francis
Sorry, once again, but I really think that you do not associate. But you are not alone with this trouble, it seems that more and more people cannot do this anymore.

I'll give you now some examples:

Quote:
Invasion:
To be invaded by something. Usually a negative
experience. War of the World with Tom Cruise.
Something coming from another dimension. I felt
invaded by cars, the tv, large stores, the media when
I returned here.


"To be invaded ..." is only an explanation of the term "invasion". This is not an association. "Usually a negative experience" is neither an association. It does not contain any personal experience, since you relativate it with "usually". "War of the World with Tom Cruise" approaches an association, since now we are close to a personal experience. But what is your personal experience with this movie. It seems that the feeling of being invaded by cars, tv, large stores, media is now your real association. Thus "invasion" means what you experienced when you returned to the US (as much as I can see). If yes, we have now the problem the dream deals with. It is what I intuitively anticipated.

Quote:
Dinosaur:
Primordial, primitive ancient creature, now extinct.
Something coming from the primive instinctual side of
me that perhaps I'm out of touch with. Getting back to
basics. If I met one face to face I would be
petrified.


Aha, it seems that you always have to talk a little in a general way, and only then the real association comes. The real association is "petrified by the Dinosaur", i.e., being deeply scared. Thus the beginning of the dream tells you that in coming back to the US you first feeled petrified, and you were deeply scared. Since the dream talks of this, it seems that you repressed this feeling a little too much.

Perhaps you knew all this before, but someone else who would like to understand the dream does not. Thus the associations help him to understand the feelings in your dream -- and your problem.

Quote:
Plastic:
Artificial man-made product. Something flexible. Very
useful under the right circumstances.


I miss here the feeling tone. My association would be "plastic people" and with it the Beatles resp. John Lennon. With this he ment all these "living deads" who do not really live anymore, since all they are interested in is the money, career, ambition, and so on. Of course this is not your association, but I add it just to show to you what an association could be.

Quote:
Cleaners:
Cleaners work in the psyche, doing the shadow work.
One can be "taken to the cleaners." A Telesphoros
aspect.


I do not understand. "Doing the shadow work" is an "association" of an animus who has read too much Jung ;-). With the cleaners you have surely a personal experience. For example: "Damn, when they were here last time, I had to begin at the beginning with cleaning." This would be a living association, an association which has something to do with your personal life.

Quote:
Key:
The key opens doors to other dimensions and
possibilities. The answer to a problem. A threshold
aspect. In this dream it's not available so the work
must go on.


This is not an association, this is a philosophical remark. What did you experience with a key in the last days, weeks, months? I am sure that you had a personal experience, e.g., "Oh, some days ago I lost the key of my car. An exactly in the moment I had to ...., and so on." (Only an example to show you that associations should have to do with personal experiences)

Quote:
Tom Cruise.
Actor, extraverted masculine. He plays a part so is
probably not authentic in who he is. I've had several
dreams with him before but I don't find him
particularly attractive. In the limelight which is
something I would dislike very much. I see the puer in
him and that attracts me.


Example of an association: Oh in the last movie I did not like him since he was engaged with such a stupid woman. Or similar. Like this one can feel an emotional experience.

Quote:
Military woman:
She's the authoritative, principled, obey orders part
of me. I was raised in this way, by obeying the law
and doing what I was told to do.


Ok. This is a personal association and shows that there is a part in you which is not allowed to follow her own ideas what you have to do. Thus, one can interpret in the way that at the end of the dream you are in a conflict (as much I remember this was the end).

Quote:
Red haired woman:
The gypsy part of me. The side that's passionate,
Dionesian, opposite of the military woman. She's
outspoken and shows her anger, both aspects which are
a problem for me.


This is an interpretation, not an association. Did you have an experience with a red haired women in the last few days, weeks, months?
Here we see that the danger is that one interprets instead of bringing in associations. Like this one will never come closer to the real meaning of the dream.

Quote:
You did not say anything about the active imagination
which I feel answers some question about the part both
of these women play.


I first should understand the dream, only then I can go on.

Quote:
Thank you for your interest.

I do this for you, but also for all the other people who do not know anymore what Carl Jung and Marie-Louise taught us what a real dream interpretation is. It seems that the Jungians do not know all this anymore. I guess some of them just enter their wrong prejudices into a dream. Like this one cannot help any other person to understand the individual meaning of his/her dream.

Best

Remo


Tue Mar 14, 2006 10:38 pm
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Post Invasion
Hi Remo.

You said:

"To be invaded ..." is only an explanation of the term "invasion". This is not an association. "Usually a negative experience" is neither an association. It does not contain any personal experience, since you relativate it with "usually". "War of the World with Tom Cruise" approaches an association, since now we are close to a personal experience. But what is your personal experience with this movie. It seems that the feeling of being invaded by cars, tv, large stores, media is now your real association. Thus "invasion" means what you experienced when you returned to the US (as much as I can see). If yes, we have now the problem the dream deals with. It is what I intuitively anticipated.




I tried to watch this movie but found it poorly done so I didn't watch it all.


You said:


I miss here the feeling tone. My association would be "plastic people" and with it the Beatles resp. John Lennon. With this he ment all these "living deads" who do not really live anymore, since all they are interested in is the money, career, ambition, and so on. Of course this is not your association, but I add it just to show to you what an association could be.



My best association with plastic would be something artificial not real. I guess I feel that way about many things here. Yet that's the collective feeling not the personal.

You said:


I do not understand. "Doing the shadow work" is an "association" of an animus who has read too much Jung . With the cleaners you have surely a personal experience. For example: "Damn, when they were here last time, I had to begin at the beginning with cleaning." This would be a living association, an association which has something to do with your personal life.

Here I disagree with you. Doing the "shadow work" means just that. This is something I've been doing for over 20 years and for me it means looking at the repressed parts of myself and integrating them as much as possible. That's what the cleaners would do. My only living experience with cleaners would be that I hope before I die I will have someone clean my place.I have always done it myself and I would c onsider it a great luxury to have someone else do it!


I said and you said:

Quote:
Key:
The key opens doors to other dimensions and
possibilities. The answer to a problem. A threshold
aspect. In this dream it's not available so the work
must go on.


This is not an association, this is a philosophical remark. What did you experience with a key in the last days, weeks, months? I am sure that you had a personal experience, e.g., "Oh, some days ago I lost the key of my car. An exactly in the moment I had to ...., and so on." (Only an example to show you that associations should have to do with personal experiences)


The only personal experience I had with a key was accidentally locking myself out of my apartment in Greece almost a year ago.


I said and you said:


exactly in the moment I had to ...., and so on." (Only an example to show you that associations should have to do with personal experiences)

Quote:
Tom Cruise.
Actor, extraverted masculine. He plays a part so is
probably not authentic in who he is. I've had several
dreams with him before but I don't find him
particularly attractive. In the limelight which is
something I would dislike very much. I see the puer in
him and that attracts me.


Example of an association: Oh in the last movie I did not like him since he was engaged with such a stupid woman. Or similar. Like this one can feel an emotional experience.


I don't feel an emotional response to Tom Cruise.



I said and you said:


Red haired woman:
The gypsy part of me. The side that's passionate,
Dionesian, opposite of the military woman. She's
outspoken and shows her anger, both aspects which are
a problem for me.


This is an interpretation, not an association. Did you have an experience with a red haired women in the last few days, weeks, months?
Here we see that the danger is that one interprets instead of bringing in associations. Like this one will never come closer to the real meaning of the dream.

I have had no experiences with a red haired woman that I can recall.



I appreciate your input but I find it a bit severe and one sided. I feel on the whole I have a good grasp of dreamwork otherwise I could not have taught it for so many years. Perhaps we simply don't understand each other well enough yet.

Thanks for your input.

Best Frances.


Wed Mar 15, 2006 1:07 am
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Post Re: Invasion
Francis
Frances Gilley wrote:
I appreciate your input but I find it a bit severe and one sided. I feel on the whole I have a good grasp of dreamwork otherwise I could not have taught it for so many years. Perhaps we simply don't understand each other well enough yet.


It was not my intention to criticize you. I just liked to show the method Carl Jung and Marie-Louise von Franz showed us for an objective interpretation of a dream which distinguishes from just an intuitive phantasy about it. A method is per definition onesided. Severe is your dream, not my insistance to understand it, I guess.

With these associations, I can try an interpretation. I do it by way of an exeption in public, since you have already talked a lot about you in public.

First I'd like to show to you that only with the association to the key Greece comes in. Otherwise we would not realize that the dream has decisively to do with your return from Greece.

The beginning is the problem. The problem shows in the invasion of plastic Dinosaurs coming from the sky. "Invasion" means that you are in a situation where you are scared by cars, large stores, medic. Here we see how the dream shows in a dramatical way the cultural shock you suffer from (consciously or unconsciously?) in returning to the US. The invasion comes from the sky, thus there is too little earth. You are not at all rooted there.

The Dinosaur is an archetypal symbol, thus I can amplify. I amplify with my experience. I have seen that the Dinosaur mostly is the body. Since these animals are so big, it is a "big body", symbolically: The problem with your body is immense. You associate "primitive instinct" and "petrified". Thus, the archaic instincts in your body are in danger to be petrified. This is the horrible truth the preconscious knowledge of the unconscious would like to show to you.

It is however only the head of the Dinosaur. Thus it has lost its body in the sky (in Heaven). This would be for me a very heavy alert! At the Dinosaur's head there are "zig-zags", lightnings. The latter are symbols of a situation in which a sudden, unforeseen change happens. Since the whole context is such negative, I interpret this symbol as the threat that something very destructive with your body could happen. The lightning is at the head, thus it is likely (also since you suffer from all these extraverted sensation problems above) that your central nervous system will react. This motif scares me deeply, I can tell you!

Plastic is "artificial", thus your body (or at least the head) has become artificial. This is again a hint that there is too much extraverted sensation you are exposed to. Can you imagine to live in a plastic body? This is what happens with you back in the US. The contrary would be to live in the natural body, and this is living much more in the vegetative nervous system. This is why I told you that you need the Body-Centered Imagination very much (if only for the purpose to sleep in).

The apartment. Again an amplification of me. In my experience "house", "appartment" means the "intimate body" (house = the place where we are intimate), thus the "inner, intimate view of your body". Again a hint to BCI.

And now the key comes! You have lost the key to all that in Greece! As I said before, you must have an immense cultural shock you do perhaps not realize too consciously.

Thus, the necessary conflict arises. It is a conflict between "Tom Cruise" and the "red woman". What Cruise could mean, I do not see yet too clearly. I amplify the red woman, since your "gipsy" association does not give me the feeling that it is deep enough (sorry, but this is my feeling, and feelings are as rational, as legitimate means for a conscious orientation as is thinking). Thus, for me the red woman is Sulphur. Sulphur is the active spirit in alchemy. It is a very dangerous spirit, as long as it is not tamed by the white Sulphur. Red Sulphur is, as much as I can see, again the concentration on the central nervous system, white sulphur is the vegetative. Since dreams have the tendency to a so-called aggregation, I interpret this motif like this. Thus it means again that in you the fight between the CNS uand the VNS is constellated.

You wake up with this conflict. This means that it is urgent to solve it.

This is how I would interpret this dream. I guess it is as objective as possible, since I have more or less only taken you personal associations and entered them into the dream. Perhaps you remember the Rosetta stone I talked of in another thread.

Remo

_________________
'Here stands the mean uncomely stone,
Tis very cheap in price!
The more it is despised by fools,
The more loved by the wise.'
(C.G. Jung, MDR, p. 253)
WebSite: http://www.paulijungunusmundus.eu


Wed Mar 15, 2006 9:01 am
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Post Invasion
Thank you Remo.

What you say seems to fit. My return here has been a culture shock. However my rheumatoid arthritis seems to be under control at the moment. I am continuing the body centered work you suggested although I still have the tendency to distraction.

Thanks again for your help.

Frances.


Wed Mar 15, 2006 7:34 pm

Joined: Mon Mar 13, 2006 7:27 am
Posts: 735
Location: Vancouver, B.C., Canada
Post 
Hi Frances. I am following your perspective.

I had a feeling that Tom Cruise in the dream is cruise control. I realize I should not place these ideas in your head, but my gut has been asking me to speak all evening. What this might mean to you I do not know, however, so maybe it could be of some help. Or, conversely, is "Tom" the one who is 'in the flow'? And why is the woman in red mad at him - because he is cruising? :roll: I wonder. Is he unconscious? I do not know why I ask this, but it is a feeling too.

I realize now (if I have it right! ) from Remo that we are not supposed to play 'detective' with our own, and certainly not with someone elses, dreams (except in the case of considering archetypal material, which is very different - here the therapist can come in - like with the Dinosaur symbol in your otherwise more personal dream). Our own job is just to 'associate' personally with our own dream material ourselves, and since this is your dream, my question here could definately be considered out of line - ! - . I will try to control myself from here on in, but - my stomach kept telling me I should respond...

This process of dream 'understanding' is indeed very very difficult. I now see how very far from the real dream processing methods of C.G. Jung and MLvF we have come today.

All the best,
Kristin

_________________
"The tomb is not a blind alley; it is a thoroughfare. It closes on the twilight. It opens on the dawn." ******* (Victor Hugo)


Fri Mar 17, 2006 7:47 am
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Post 
kristin wrote:
Hi Frances. I am following your perspective.

I had a feeling that Tom Cruise in the dream is cruise control. I realize I should not place these ideas in your head, but my gut has been asking me to speak all evening. What this might mean to you I do not know, however, so maybe it could be of some help. Or, conversely, is "Tom" the one who is 'in the flow'? And why is the woman in red mad at him - because he is cruising? :roll: I wonder. Is he unconscious? I do not know why I ask this, but it is a feeling too.

I realize now (if I have it right! ) from Remo that we are not supposed to play 'detective' with our own, and certainly not with someone elses, dreams (except in the case of considering archetypal material, which is very different - here the therapist can come in - like with the Dinosaur symbol in your otherwise more personal dream). Our own job is just to 'associate' personally with our own dream material ourselves, and since this is your dream, my question here could definately be considered out of line - ! - . I will try to control myself from here on in, but - my stomach kept telling me I should respond...

This process of dream 'understanding' is indeed very very difficult. I now see how very far from the real dream processing methods of C.G. Jung and MLvF we have come today.

All the best,
Kristin



Dear Kristin.

Thank you for your response. I will reflect upon it.

Best Frances.


Fri Mar 17, 2006 7:16 pm
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