UNUS MUNDUS

The UNUS MUNDUS forum of Psychovision (Remo F. Roth) invites discussion of theoretical and practical issues of a possible union of Carl Jung's depth psychology with quantum physical principles.
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 Transplants 
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Post Transplants
Some years ago, a number of stories appeared in the news regarding recipients of organ transplants. I think that is was heart transplants. They were claiming that they had acquired new personality traits as a result of the transplant, and that these traits had belonged to the donor - presumably they had checked with people who knew the donors. It was fairly trivial things that were mentioned, like food preferences and interest in a particular sport.

It wasn't difficult to find doctors and scientists to say that it was all nonsense - if they weren't making it up, they were imagining it. I think someone might have written a book on the idea. It would rather change our whole sense of personal identity, but there is this idea of organs all having their own consciousness. The idea apealed to me - I wondered if anyone else had ever come accross this?

Patrick

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Nikos Kazantzakis


Sat Dec 05, 2009 10:14 am
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Post Personal qualities transferred by transplants?
Hi Patrick, There is probably not enough solid evidence to establish the antidotes as factual. Sounds like some old horror movie where a hand with a mind of its own from somebody else made a nice innocent person into a killer.

There was some case where I am just making up here what I think it said. A man got a transplant, he met the widow of the deceased, they got married... then something freaky was happening... maybe something to do with a suicide... I will have to check into that more... but the explanation could be just a curious obsession by the one who received the organ led to tragedy. Of course I may be screwing up this story in the retelling... just as in the "telephone" game we used to play as kids where you make a circle with others first. Then somebody says something in a whisper to the next person. By the time this is done around the circle, what the last person then says out loud is usually hilariously different from the original message.

Suzanne

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Sat Dec 05, 2009 11:04 am
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Post heart as soul
Hi All -- Patrick, it's very interesting that you should bring this up now! Only 2 days ago I was recounting again to my sister the curious change in personality of one of my tai chi/chi gung instructors, a Dutch woman (as it happens, Jan, yes! -- she started as a dancer in the Eurythmic method espoused by Rudolf Steiner et al, later moved to N.America to start again) who teaches and practices Chinese alchemic healing in the method of Mantak Chia (a name which has come up here on the forum before, as the inner alchemy espoused by this Asian modality is akin in many ways to Hermetic alchemy which came partly out of the Gnostic tradition). At any rate, this woman had a heart transplant a few years ago now, and with this, there was a subtle but inescapable difference I found in her personality, which as you say above, Patrick, defies scientific explanation (ha!). Basically, where before she was quite introverted and self-contained, which seemed to have to do more with her chosen lifestyle of 'retreat' and contemplation, maybe in a sense to the extent of a certain shyness of affect, the last time I met with her, just about 1/2 year after her trauma and heart-replacement, she seemed to be incredibly more extroverted, bubbly and vivacious, much more assertive and outgoing than previously. This had a peculiar effect on the material she was teaching, as now her form of energy seemed to 'go out' to the students more physically even than before. I don't know how to describe it. At any rate, she retained of course her essential humility of character and integrity in all ways, but it was almost as if even the look in her eyes was different to me. It was a psychic dimension that had somehow changed, which reinvigorated her in a way that just the implantation of a new organ seemingly could never have brought about (apart from the fact that the operation saved her life, that is..).

A synchronicity perhaps, that you brought this up now Patrick? I sense that the point we must reckon with in this case is that the heart is truly the 'main/higher brain frequency' of both the physical AND the subtle body of any incarnate being. Of course, this can only be ascertained, never proven, as it is primarily a mystical understanding. But in our discussion of the chakras this seems to hold some great truth, as one cannot rise with the inner energies, the emotions, to the heart 'untainted' (by over zealous ego need, desire) until one has honestly grappled with the strength and 'meaning' of the lower chakric energies -- one cannot just skip the step of the svadisthana and muladhara energies, proceed on directly up to the potential aggressivity of solar plexus charka and with this move on up to the heart area. One requires firstly the winnowing that can only be achieved through the acceptance of the lower, those profound infrared frequencies, before the heart will open it's authentic mystery to the personality. In other words, a person unintegrated (who has not become conscious of projection of the shadow, and grounded in the physical nature of living first) cannot knock on the door of the heart with it's 'secret soul chambers' and find it open naturally, without neediness or fear or a sense of abandonment. Again, this all has something to do with becoming grounded in the essential unsentimentality of nature, that is Love in the capitol 'L' sense, in 'compassion' as the higher ground of love, where one can yet detach from a beloved object/subject, while still loving in the largest sense, retaining one's own essential 'wildness'perhaps being the message here while at the same time having a foot in humanity too. To me, this brings/opens a new way of loving, that which has often been espoused by the mystics, a kind of removed yet incredibly present love for everything, without having a demand to possess that which is beloved. Something like this anyway..

Well, I got off track a little there, but any discussion of the heart energies would nowadays immediately it seems bring this business of grounding in the belly/gut/caldroun region up again. I could speculate on what happened to this woman based on her many years of integrating the shadow, that her heart should now be so radiant, where before it was a little more 'veiled'. She IS a particular case, as she DID undergo much metamorphosis before her transplant, such that perhaps it also impacted on the implantation. Very mysterious business....

A final point here --- there is an interesting discussion among UFO'logists and Alien abduction experts (which Remo and I have mentionned on the UM several times in the past) that revolves around the fact that in every case of so-called abduction it appears that the only organ NEVER touched or probed by the 'visitors' in the least is none other than the heart! The beings appear to have no interest in the heart region (seat of soul perhaps..), and yet ironically it appears that what they seek in any case is something about us, about humanity, that is completely ineffable to their own experience... Very strange. An interesting topic on so many levels, this... (I look to Sufi explanations of the heart as seat of Love/truth now, as these seem such a very good place to start in any such discussion...).

It sure makes me wonder about the whole business of other organ transplants, say with the kidneys or what have you... Interesting that the Mantak Chia inner alchemic modality discusses this very thing, each organ as the seat of a different emotional/psychological energy! That is the very thing that much Chinese medicine is based upon. The heart is the organ I believe of joy when it is healthy, can't remember exactly right now, while the kidneys for instance, in that modality, are the organs that govern 'fear' or lack thereof in the healthy... I will go and have a look again, as this seems pertinent suddenly!

Thanks alot Patrick for posting..


Kristin

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Sun Dec 06, 2009 9:10 pm
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Kristin,

You have provided lots of insights that shed light on this issue for me - thank you. I suspect that your observation regarding alien abductions is particularly significant.

It is interesting that when we memorize a thing perfectly, we learn it 'by heart' in English. I wonder if this applies in other languages?

Patrick

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Sun Dec 06, 2009 9:44 pm
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Quote:
Leonora Leet, 'The Secret Doctrine of the Kabbalah', Inner Traditions 1999, pg. 91-92

This association of number with the heart may well be the most extraordinary concept implied in the whole of the Sefer Yetzirah and is perhaps its greatest contribution to the definition of sacred science I am here attempting. For once one contemplates this association of number with the heart, considers the heart as involved in the perception of number, in the process of counting, its justification becomes clear: as the beating organ that establishes the body's rhythm, it provides the norm against which other rhythms can be compared, counted, counting and rhythm again being conjoined, as also in the Greek word for "the art of counting", arithmetike. The perceptual system would seem, then, to have a counting faculty, one which the Sefer Yetzirah tells us has the power to mediate numerically between the elements of space and time, form and sound, and which is centered in the heart. The Greek word for "arithmetic" implies, however, the "art" of counting, a capacity not only quantitative but it would see, also qualitative, one that can distinguish the beautiful from the ugly in spatial and harmonic proportions; and this would seem also to be a special property of the heart, its qualitative ability to discern a personal affinity to some vibrational patterns and aversion to others, and to express these responses to the consciousness in the form of feelings.

Once the heart has been associated with number, it then becomes possible to understand how the human perceptual system can interconvert the languages of the eye and the ear.


Kristin, I knew that there was something that I had read that really connected with this. I have quoted a passage from the work of Leonora Leet, a very great modern Kabbalist in the Judaic line, but unfortunately there is little about her work on the Internet. She is now dead, but wrote a 4 volume series on Kabbalah, with particular reference to sound, sacred geometry and quantum physics. Her books are available and reviewed online, however.

The connection between number and the heart opens doors for me in connection with number and the way that it was used by our ancesters, and is preserved in sacred science.

I hope that this quote captures the essence of what I believe is a deeply significant insight.

Patrick

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Last edited by Patrick Booker on Mon Dec 07, 2009 11:21 am, edited 1 time in total.



Sun Dec 06, 2009 10:46 pm
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Last edited by Gone on Sun Apr 17, 2011 8:46 pm, edited 1 time in total.



Mon Dec 07, 2009 3:27 am
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Jan,

I had a counting obsession too. I had completely forgotten, but as a little boy, I counted aloud for hours, just to see how big a number I could reach.

Patrick

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"A name is a prison, God is free."

Nikos Kazantzakis


Last edited by Patrick Booker on Mon Dec 07, 2009 2:32 pm, edited 1 time in total.



Mon Dec 07, 2009 11:18 am
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