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The UNUS MUNDUS forum of Psychovision (Remo F. Roth) invites discussion of theoretical and practical issues of a possible union of Carl Jung's depth psychology with quantum physical principles.
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 Marie-Louise von Franz' Dream of the Return of Carl Jung 
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Post Marie-Louise von Franz' Dream of the Return of Carl Jung
Since I'd like to continue the discussion of MLvF's dream opened in the Kaleidoscope forum, I copy here my posts about MLvF's dream, and add the posts of some other members:

Hi all

I'd like to open a discussion about this dream of Marie-Louise von Franz:


“In summer of 1994 [Marie-Louise von Franz] was visited by a woman, a medium, who wanted to convince her to collaborate with her; she was certain that the Christian and the Buddhist spirit were presently uniting on the other side in order to save the world. Marie-Louise promised nothing - she wanted first to see what she might dream. The following night she had this dream:

Quote:
‘She is working in the laundry at the cloister in Einsiedeln. She is given to understand that Jung would come down from heaven to the wedding of the Black Madonna. Marie-Louise is among the one hundred elect who are permitted to take part in the wedding.‘

She then said that the unconscious was indeed preparing a remedy for the world and a union, to be sure not one "above in the spiritual realm," but a union of above and below, a union of spirit and matter. Very early on the Virgin Mary was thought to be "the earth;" the Black Madonna was a nature goddess. And yet the union comes about in a Christian framework, which she (Mary-Louise) never could accept. But still the dream filled her with the highest happiness.”


[Source: http://journeyintowholeness.org/news/nl ... logy2.shtm ]

Remo Roth

_________________
'Here stands the mean uncomely stone,
Tis very cheap in price!
The more it is despised by fools,
The more loved by the wise.'
(C.G. Jung, MDR, p. 253)
WebSite: http://www.paulijungunusmundus.eu


Last edited by Remo Roth on Sat Mar 25, 2006 9:43 am, edited 3 times in total.



Sat Mar 25, 2006 8:41 am
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Sudarshan wrote:
For Plato, the World Soul is a priori, the living embodiment of living nature itself, yet still, a metaphysical principle of "relatedness." So I read, unio corporalis: Spirit/Soul conjoining Body... or, as you speak to in/of Gerardus Dorneus' writings on the alchemical Unio Corporis as, "matter-psyche as the shadow of the Self (the Logos Self),"


Yes, behind Carl Jung's (Logos) Self there must be what I call the Eros Self. It contains the shadow of the Logos Self as well as the dark matter and dark energy of physics. The union of the Eros Self (or world soul) with the Logos Self is what Dorneus called the unio corporalis, the second phase of the opus. It seems that such spontaneous events happen according to the nexus of the radioactive decay, however consciously experienced in oneself. This is a deeper process than Carl Jung's Active Imagination, since the result is an incarnation in matter, in the matter of the universe and/or of the individual body. Further, this process is observable, i.e., real (conclusion of W. Pauli).

Remo

_________________
'Here stands the mean uncomely stone,
Tis very cheap in price!
The more it is despised by fools,
The more loved by the wise.'
(C.G. Jung, MDR, p. 253)
WebSite: http://www.paulijungunusmundus.eu


Last edited by Remo Roth on Sun Dec 23, 2007 9:09 am, edited 1 time in total.



Sat Mar 25, 2006 8:43 am
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Sudarshan wrote:
... that I am linking the ground under your premise of stating that the "second phase of the opus," the unio corporalis ("union of the Eros Self (or world soul) with the Logos") has a real linkage with a lineage of living ideas... Now, could you at least entertain the question I asked, about Logos... or is Logos just such an repudiative, awful thing by your lights? This is what I mean by emotionally-laden conceptual ideas. The conceptual idea of Logos has been getting a beating, some deservedly ... some undeservedly... I'm just tracing the roots of the meaning of Logos through its first, surviving usage... being that we lost much through the destruction of records in places like the Library of Alexandria, and the little thing we call the Dark Ages... the rest by popular opinion.... IMO. Maybe we can later move on to why poultrygeists crossed the road, if you will or won't... or don't get silly jokes... Language and other subtleties seem to intrude here...



My trouble ist still that I have some difficulties to understand your English. I will reflect on your statements, which -- as much as I understood -- are very interesting and illuminating. Then I can give you perhaps an answer.

When I read it I asked myself spontaneously, if the logos you speak of could be the Logos Spermatikos? I would be very interested in discussing this subject, since it seems that in Pauli's dreams and visions the Spermatikos came up and would have liked to replace the mathematical and depth psychological Logos of today.

Do you know something more about the Spermatikos?

Remo

_________________
'Here stands the mean uncomely stone,
Tis very cheap in price!
The more it is despised by fools,
The more loved by the wise.'
(C.G. Jung, MDR, p. 253)
WebSite: http://www.paulijungunusmundus.eu


Sat Mar 25, 2006 8:46 am
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sudharshan wrote:
Just briefly, and not to say I fully comprehend all the philosophies involved... The early philosophers thought the "arche" was: water, aer, or fire, etc., and the Greek word for "word", was Logos, but also for "intelligence", "speech", "discourse", and "reason," and "reasoning soul"... In Heracleitus, in Stoicism, in Philo of Alexandria and the early Christian thinkers it becomes a crucial technical term. In Heracleitus it may be translated as either "account", meaning Heracleitus' own "account of the world", or it may mean, more abstractly, "the rational principle underlying the changes in the Universe" in which humans also have some share. In Stoicism the "Logos Spermatikos" was, as it were, the conception of a seed-power of the originating arche... that make up an intelligent universe through these many-begotten seed-powers [logoi spermatikoi] (spirits) viewed as cosmic seed-bearers of life that scatter everywhere (panspermia), and which eventually return to it's originator. Originally an animistic/pantheistic, cosmic order view of a Logos of a germinating divine consciousness, that spreads an intelligent pattern, that seems to have been absorbed into Christian thought (as in John using Logos as divine Word), and the "concept" spread into its theological traditions through the Apostle Paul, and by Philo, and which later came into Neoplatonist thought as a kind of idea of a pneuma-logos of divine intellect, and again, by the Theosophists... mostly projected as a very rarified/ spiritualized notion... Yet it was originally a term closer to Plato's "Ideas" and really a quite pantheistic idea, but does include "Divine Ideas" as daimonic agents, souls, angels and demons, yett also involves an Animistic, vitalizing/confluent substance, and most expressly for the Stoics, is aspected as world-soul.

The Stoics expressed that the world is God, 'logos prophorikos,' a world soul, with an indwelling 'logos endiathetos,' which is more like an aggregate, rational soul, of living "ideas" in "hexis" (confluence) or mixture, rather than rarified god-image on-high, and Logos Spermatikos as more an expression of Logos as a "mediating" agency of processes of condensation and rarefaction of this transforming substance pervading all things.

We on the same page yet? I know vaguely that Pauli had some view on this matter in his objection with Jung's somewhat Christianized "spiritual" paradigm... and that he prefered to hold forth a more "Pagan" view... which I, anyway, have sympathy with Pauli about... and in that I trust you will fill us in on all that business. Somehow though, I still feel that Jung was trying to recapture something beyond our reliance on the conscious intellect... even and especially around religious dogmas, and was realizant of other mythic areas active or potentially active (re: his thoughts on Wotan as pneuma being activated in WWII)... I feel there's always this vying for dominance of one's religious myth... and conflict seems unavoidable where we meet these matters of evaluating Jung's or anyone's personal myth from the outside... I just have my own sense of people having different persuasions... I do get a bit weirded out by all that Jungian analysis of the annunciation of Mary talk, and Edinger's almost religious view of Jung's "dispensation" and now, a little with this subject head of "Jung's return"... Rolling Eyes But hey, I just like to keep things connected and yet... distinct... and don't want any Muslim Mullahs putting or Pat Robertson putting a price on my head... for having an open dialogue about all kinds of views... Myths certainly have a dark side comes to their unconscious persuasion.... neh?


Thanks for these amplifications. I think they show very nicely the two different aspects of the Logos. The first is the aspect of the word, of the spirit, of verbalization. It is the background of today's intellect (what I call conscious spirit-psyche). On the other hand there is the Logos spermatikos of Stoicism (I compare it with what I call the matter-psyche). I learned from Pauli that this Logos is much more material (as you write, too). It has to do with the sperma (and like this also with the egg and with fertilization), i.e., with a material creation and incarnation, whereas the first aspect of the Logos has to do with a spiritual creation and incarnation.

If this differentiation is true, it would be a very good background for my distinction between the unio mentalis and the unio corporalis, or between Neoplatonic and Hermetic Alchemy, or between Active Imagination and my Body-Centered Imagination (see http://www.psychovision.ch/hknw/holy_we ... ntents.htm ).

Like this, the Logos spermatikos would become the seed (= sperma) of the dying king in the womb (egg; fertilization) of the queen, the central motif of Hermetic alchemy. In a modern interpretation, this motif would mean a potential realm (for me the unus mundus with its energetic principle, the world soul), out of which in an indeterministic way new creation is possible. One can imagine such a realm like a condenser that discharges acausally or indeterministically in the course of time.

I am convinced that today there are more and more people who have the duty to observe such acausal "discharges" in their own inside, and if they don't, they have UFO experiences (or become sick). This sort of incarnation is not synchronicity since its result is not a new creative idea -- the meaning -- but a real material incarnation out of the Beyond.

Mediums are able to observe such incarnations. The dream of Marie-Louise reacted however exactly on the visit of such a medium. Thus my conclusion that the dream of the return of Jung has to do with the constellation of such spontaneous acausal incarnations on the material basis -- a modern unio corporalis, a modern coniunctio. And as you know, Carl Jung confessed that he did not reach the latter. This is why he must come back to the marriage of the Black Madonna, since the Black Madonnas have this healing power that belongs to the unio corporalis on the material level.

In modern terms I call this healing power the matter-psyche. It seems to give physical energy a higher negentropy, i.e., "new life". This is why it is also a healing force.

Remo

_________________
'Here stands the mean uncomely stone,
Tis very cheap in price!
The more it is despised by fools,
The more loved by the wise.'
(C.G. Jung, MDR, p. 253)
WebSite: http://www.paulijungunusmundus.eu


Last edited by Remo Roth on Sun Dec 23, 2007 9:15 am, edited 1 time in total.



Sat Mar 25, 2006 8:48 am
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Angelika wrote:

Remo, I would like to talk about the cloister..
Einsiedeln is a german word and has a meaning like "isloated place" where you are alone..
actually where Eremits would live too.

I like especially the dream fact that she is doing the laundry there.
One could think she would be there to write a book or contemplate and mediate and so..but no: she is doing something very ordinary and earthy..the laundry...

which reminds me of an very old dream I once had ( I was always a bit attracted to the idea of an isolated life in a cloister and I often wondered, what they might dream there...deprived of outer things..what kind of dreamlife would a nun have ?)

so in my dream there was a very clear voice and told me (about living in a cloister)

"Out of pure intellectual effort/endeavour comes/flows "no blood"..

that is some kind of a word by word translation of the german sentence:
aus rein intellektuellen Bemuehungen fliesst kein Blut...

that actually supports von Franz WORK there: she is doing the laundry...thats for the moment..

best, Angelika

_________________
'Here stands the mean uncomely stone,
Tis very cheap in price!
The more it is despised by fools,
The more loved by the wise.'
(C.G. Jung, MDR, p. 253)
WebSite: http://www.paulijungunusmundus.eu


Sat Mar 25, 2006 8:54 am
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Angelika

Angelika Reitze wrote:
Remo, I would like to talk about the cloister..
Einsiedeln is a german word and has a meaning like "isloated place" where you are alone..
actually where Eremits would live too.


You are right, Einsiedeln means "the place of the hermitage" (my mother tongue is also German). Perhaps I did not stress this fact enough, since it is so usual for me to be a hermit. I am convinced that only the mentality of a hermit will solve the incredible big problems of the world of today and tomorrow. This does not mean any religious or confessional limitation. It just means introversion, being alone with oneself (with one's Self!) -- some sort of a secular convent (monastery) Jung always expected as the future form of life.

Quote:
I like especially the dream fact that she is doing the laundry there.
One could think she would be there to write a book or contemplate and mediate and so..but no: she is doing something very ordinary and earthy..the laundry...


As much as I see, "laundry" means dealing with the shadow, with the so-called dirt. In her case it is however not the personal shadow, but the shadow of Carl Jung's (Logos) Self, i.e., what I call the Eros Self [or perhaps the Self of the Logos spermatikos -- the rival of the Logos of Plato (the latter an idea of W. Pauli)]

Quote:
which reminds me of an very old dream I once had ... so in my dream there was a very clear voice and told me (about living in a cloister): "Out of pure intellectual effort/endeavour comes/flows "no blood"..

that is some kind of a word by word translation of the german sentence:
aus rein intellektuellen Bemuehungen fliesst kein Blut...

that actually supports von Franz WORK there: she is doing the laundry...thats for the moment..


Your dream is perfect. And also MLvF's dream. Both mean that Jungianism is much too intellectual, too Neoplatonic. The "Black Madonna" is missing, i.e., the body and the subtle body are absent. Most Jungians remain in what Gerardus Dorneus called the unio mentalis, i.e., the extraction of the (good) spirit out of (evil) matter (Jung: "The spirit of matter", CW 12). I guess every woman of today -- except the lesbians! -- feels a deep need to rebel against such an attitude. Thus, what we need is the so-called unio corporalis, the second phase of Dorneus: In it the spirit-soul comes down from Heaven (where it is still today because of the unio mentalis, the Neoplatonic opus), enters the womb of the queen (what I call matter-psyche) where the dying king = old spirit-psyche = old-fashioned intellect, dissolves into its atoms and like this becomes the seed = sperm of the new life.

Years ago a patient showed me this process with the help of a deeply archetypal image:

Image

It shows this process very well. The head of the cross (of the man at the cross, who is however the wooden cross itself!) is burnt, but out of the heart comes the blood that fertilizes the earth. This symbolism is a modern variant of Longinus' lance piercing into the heart of the God-man, the Anthropos, which himself is wood, i.e., the vegetative principle, i.e., the vegetative nervous system.

In my interpretation this means that we have to abandon the head, the intellect, and enter the belly, where we will find the "gut brain" (Michael Gershon), the intelligence of nature. The latter speaks to us in spontaneous images that come out of the belly. They are not fantasies in the common understanding, but corporeally experienced images or "inner movies". I guess however that not too many humans of today can already see the difference between these inner corporeal images (the result of the unio corporalis) and the fantasies of the head (Neoplatonic "opus", unio mentalis, mostly called Active Imagination).

Your dream talks of this task, the real challenge of the 21st century.

Best

Remo

_________________
'Here stands the mean uncomely stone,
Tis very cheap in price!
The more it is despised by fools,
The more loved by the wise.'
(C.G. Jung, MDR, p. 253)
WebSite: http://www.paulijungunusmundus.eu


Last edited by Remo Roth on Mon Jun 11, 2012 8:58 am, edited 3 times in total.



Sat Mar 25, 2006 8:58 am
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Angelika

Angelika wrote:
... I had that dream around christmas, whilst ravelling in Panama (between "the americas") and a beautiful Mango tree triggered the dream...you might know that Mango trees are huge green trees with leafs close to the soil..
the dream:
my "men" [I guess you mean "man"; RFR] (looked like my beloved husband a bit - but younger..) and I, we had to lift the veil of leaves and had to sneak under the tree, the tree was like a dome..
there HE was laying with his belly on the ground and pollinated..

(AngelA..do not delete..its not a sex dream)

the funny thing: he was a bit embarrased and had some tummy ache (he said) but I comforted him and said: it doesn't matter if it would be ME or the Soil..I mean: "I missed it" in a double meaning - but it was nearly the same. in me or in the soil...
do you think this is symbol of the Logos Spermatikos ?
does it look like a personal dream or a collective/archetypal one ?
Interested in your opinion..Angelika



What great, modern dreams of the challenge of the 21st century you have !!!

The dream confirms the other one (the second). The man is the "old king", who is however humble enough to disappear in the womb. He is the product of the unio mentalis, the "king in Heaven" who came down to earth and fertilizes it. It is pure Hermetic alchemy -- and I guess MLvF would be very happy about you and all the people who have such dreams, today.

The man is the Logos spermatikos. But what does this mean? It means that you should become very passive and just look into your belly. There, in the belly brain or gut brain the Logos spermatikos pollinates the fertile earth. Like this the "new thing" (the infans solaris, the red tincture) is born. This means that when you look into your belly you will see spontaneous images or "inner movies" (perhaps shocking, since they come so spontaneously, i.e., acausally). And these inner images or inner movies are "the new thing", the new birth, the product of the coniunctio, as shown in picture # 10 in the Rosarium Philosophorum (see CW 16, picture 10).

Remo

PS: If you have trouble with your belly, this is the "symptom" which would like to be transformed into the "symbol", the image or the inner movie.

_________________
'Here stands the mean uncomely stone,
Tis very cheap in price!
The more it is despised by fools,
The more loved by the wise.'
(C.G. Jung, MDR, p. 253)
WebSite: http://www.paulijungunusmundus.eu


Sat Mar 25, 2006 9:05 am
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Sudharshan wrote:

One version (The Mylius engraving of 1622):

Image

another

Image


(also amidst whole series of the original woodcuts of 1550 [colorized]): http://www.istanbul-yes-istanbul.co.uk/ ... mages-rpn/

Anyone have thoughts on the death that the first coniunctio brings and the further coniunctio? Notice the attributed Christ figure in the colored woodcut series images... I notice the second coniunctio takes place as a correlary process in the realm of Soul.... mayhaps as the god/goddess antidote/transcendent factor to Mentalis... (?)

_________________
'Here stands the mean uncomely stone,
Tis very cheap in price!
The more it is despised by fools,
The more loved by the wise.'
(C.G. Jung, MDR, p. 253)
WebSite: http://www.paulijungunusmundus.eu


Sat Mar 25, 2006 9:10 am
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Angelika

Angelika Reitze wrote:
but I had " an atypical pneunomia" (not too serious..) and the whole time I was thinking that that kind of illness was a symbol...yes, I do understand your answer very well...I try to lean back and just observe...Angelika


The disease of the spirit-psyche [Atem = Ruach = der Geist Jahweh's], of the spirit extracted out of matter! This is in fact the symptom. However, such an interpretation is also Neoplatonic. It will not help you -- since no solely intellectual interpretation helps. You must do the work yourself -- in the belly (the LAUNDRY!). Wu Wei -- passive activeness. Just observe, for example your lungs in the belly. Take them down and have a look how they behave down there. Don't try to influence anything. Just observe, observe, observe. No will-power, no words, nothing. Just look into the black hole of your belly, in which you had transported your lungs before.

Remo

_________________
'Here stands the mean uncomely stone,
Tis very cheap in price!
The more it is despised by fools,
The more loved by the wise.'
(C.G. Jung, MDR, p. 253)
WebSite: http://www.paulijungunusmundus.eu


Sat Mar 25, 2006 9:12 am
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Angelika

Angelika Reitze wrote:
good to hear that you speak german...let me ask you something in between..

what do you think about "the voice"..die innere Stimme...would you think it is the voice of the Uncons. or the voice
of God (im Traum hiess es: der ungeteilte Gott..)or the voice of soul or altogether ? I am used to this since 30 years..but it is still some kind of a wonder...or is it my own creative Animus ?

(wenige koennen zuhoeren: der Moment der aeussersten Wahrnehmung ist der Moment des SEINS...ich weiss nicht ob das aus/von mir ist..??)
was macht man/frau damit ? best Angelika


As already Carl Jung has seen, intuitive people have dreams in which "the voice" comes and tells them "the truth". On the basis of my personal experience I would say that such people live or should live what I call the Eros consciousness, i.e., as often as possible live introverted feeling, introverted vegetative sensation (body/subtle body!) and introverted intuition. This means that one consciously stops thinking and tries to come down into the belly. Then the "unconscious thinking", the "thinking" of the collective unconscious (of what I call the collective spirit-psyche) can come up, exactly since one has stopped conscious thinking. This is what I call the death of the old-fashioned king in Heavens, the intellect, the old-fashioned conscious spirit-psyche [this stupid appendige of the real Logos, of the preconscious knowledge of the c. u.c. (C.G. Jung)]. Like this the "Non-ego" can observe the coniunctio in the belly, and like this the collective spirit-psyche is transfered to the conscious spirit-psyche, the ego. But then one has the task to decipher these "words of God".

If this is the voice of the Animus I don't know, since I do not have one. I would prefer the religious language and say that it is the voice of God, or perhaps the voice of the Goddess, or of their union and one of the possible "children" of this coniunctio. This coniunctio is spontaneous, acausal, this is why you never know when this voice comes. You cannot force it -- Der Geist weht wo und wann er will!

Yes, it is the voice of "der ungeteilte Gott", of the undivided God, since in the coniunctio God and the Goddess have become one (unio corporalis; in your belly...!), and the result of this (in alchemy: sexual) union is in this case "the word", the incarnation of new spiritual life. This birth can however also consist in a material (or better: subtle body like) birth, the incarnation of new physical (or better: subtle body) life. I guess that the latter is behind the UFO phenomena.

Image

http://paulijungunusmundus.eu/hknw/holy ... e_e.htm#36

In Marie-Louise von Franz' dream this is the work in the laundry ["not writing books" (your expression)], and like this one can observe the marriage of the Black Madonna -- the shadow of the Holy Mary in the Heavens! -- with the masculine God. This seems also to be the task of the reincarnated Carl Jung...! It seems that C.G. has now incarnated in the subtle body sphere (the unus mundus), and there develops further and deals with the unio corporalis he was not yet able to live in his earthly life (his confession, not mine!). But, as he also confessed, such a task is only possible for the dead, if the living help them with their individuation process (the real one, of course, not the Neoplatonic of "preaching the water and drinking the wine").

After the dream Marie-Louise had begun with this work. But it seems that not too many Jungians can follow her...

Remo

_________________
'Here stands the mean uncomely stone,
Tis very cheap in price!
The more it is despised by fools,
The more loved by the wise.'
(C.G. Jung, MDR, p. 253)
WebSite: http://www.paulijungunusmundus.eu


Last edited by Remo Roth on Mon Jun 11, 2012 9:00 am, edited 2 times in total.



Sat Mar 25, 2006 9:18 am
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Sudarshan wrote:
Belly-observing (in some ways... it's observing the observer...) the elusive blue flower of Novalis' haunted yearning for 'Wiedergeburt' (rebirth, but especially of supernatural magic), for the lost, the unattainable, the irrevocable, for the disappearing, for fancy, for dreams--for the ''Blue flower.'

Your intuition is just great! Can you tell us a little more about the blue flower of Novalis? Novalis was "my" poet with 17 years! The blue flower I have projected into too many women during my life... Please tell us more.

Remo

_________________
'Here stands the mean uncomely stone,
Tis very cheap in price!
The more it is despised by fools,
The more loved by the wise.'
(C.G. Jung, MDR, p. 253)
WebSite: http://www.paulijungunusmundus.eu


Sat Mar 25, 2006 9:19 am
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Sudharshan wrote:
I repudiate the antisemitic contamination that got involved in the issue, but moreso repudiate the great rift/exclusion of the World Soul and, I should add, the exclusion of the Dionysian... There's the modern world, IMO... With all dignity to each...

I do not understand. What exactly could be antisemitic?
Quote:
is not the call of monasticism a call to the unconscious Mother?

Yes, if one calls for it in the youth. In the first half of one's life one has to confront oneself with the world (or what we think it is). Studying, marrying, having children, making money -- but then the midlife crisis comes. This is the time when we should go into the "inner monastery". Then the outer life is at its end, and the inner begins. Most people, however, waste this chance -- and then they identify with the power complex, become "old kings" of "new institutes", and try to kill all creativity (since the latter is Dionysian, and they do not hate anything more than this God of the Chaos).

Thus, the real trouble is the cowardice of all these so-called strong people. They are not willing to "enter the womb of the queen", to "let it be(atles)", to give up all the security, the money, the nice house, the good job. Like this they miss the chance of the rejuvenation and become "living deads". Look at most people around you!

Remo

_________________
'Here stands the mean uncomely stone,
Tis very cheap in price!
The more it is despised by fools,
The more loved by the wise.'
(C.G. Jung, MDR, p. 253)
WebSite: http://www.paulijungunusmundus.eu


Sat Mar 25, 2006 9:23 am
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Sudharshan wrote:

Maybe it could just be a wheat gluten allergy, neurosis, or rabies of the aether... I wander all over sometimes in what I write, sort of like the manner in which we have actual verbal intercourse in Real Life -- full of synchronisity, verbal, oral, visual, multi-linear, non-linear, circular, anarchic, uncertainty, contradictorily, interuptedly, unexpectedly, backwards as well as forwards and sideways.

There is in the romantic writers a feeling of estrangement from the world, that man has lost the unity with the world that he had in classical times, that the personality of modern man has broken from the lost harmony between man and the world due to a bias on the conceptual. The nostalgia for the lost unity is projected to the poet's poetic imagination, to an evocation of evocation, so to speak, to an evocation of flowing sentimentality or nostalgia for the faraway, and nature, soul, emotions, speaking in symbols, allegories, metaphors with an emphasis on poetic imagination. As Novalis said, "The more poetical, the more true." Whether lyric poetry or tragedy or music is most objectivily true... I can't say... and don't know... I guess it's whatever makes one realize that one is at strife with oneself... and if that strife has meaning, and one has brief, intense, and brilliant moments when the muse comes... Idealism/Romance was, by my lights, an important break from Cartesian thinking... But I'm not much of a philosopher, nor resigned to monkdom yet, though I do like building with and fitting stones into whatever this thing is we are all building for the future... I don't see it as a monastary, then again, I'm not much of a prophet either... As for the womb of the queen, I get what you say, and it's about those warring elements that Jung speaks about in 'Mysterium' and a third element that orchestrates this transformation. Also, I have this sense of it in Jung's 'Aion' where he points out in Gnosticism's Myth an arche... even Sapentia, lost in matter, that must be put back together shard by shard, and needing fitting the fragments together... a sort of construction project... by those choosing to become conscious... I'm just working all these things out about this third factor that changes both ego-consciousness and the unconscious... and sometimes it's like 'Job,' and you got to stand firm against it... to bring mutual transformation. So that's where I am, I guess... And belly-watching... Oh, and that Belly-dancer I was talking about... but she never calls...

It takes genius to play the Romantic strains without falsifying it. I speak to the "white mythology" of Western metaphysics... for all I dislike much of postmodern deconstructions, I have to hand it to Derrida and Lacan for dismantling some of the metaphysics of Post-enlightenment/Post-Kantian Philosophy... Antisemites considered the Jews as untermenschen, seen full of their own, projected self-recrimination, carrying metaphysical consolations of a priestly world-order of some golden age: limited, and particular--because of the idea of "election"... Hegel and Heidegger I think were to blame for this particular brand of dismal-minded racism... due for one thing to their Protestant, historical inventory-taking, another to their balancing acts of Hegel's being an influential representative of German idealism and Romance theory's notions... and yet having to take a phenomenological position against idealism... Hegel was antisemitic and so was Heidegger, who chumed with Nazis... They gave Romanticism and the Enlightenment over to an efficient totalitarianistic imperial ideology... That's what I meant... a bit of what's happened to the blue flower... a wee bit @ Romantic theory and it's wiggley path through modern Philosophical history... in a wiggley world.

I think, of what we call Mythic studies, which to many seems trivial, to many seems dull. Certainly it is rich in strange curiosities, like those mystic stones which were fingered and arrayed by the pupils in that allegory of Novalis, which I supposed he penned in the hey day of the Berlin Athenaeum movement. I am, anyway, not likely to regret the accident which brought me up on fairy tales and myths. And hope to love like my heart was never broken... Here may end this desultory tale of desultory disquisitions, at the bottom of my garden, where the faeries are, just putting stones in a heap to use sometime...

"The ambiguity of the . . . revelation of the past does not depend so much on the vacillation of its content between the Imaginary and the Real, for it locates itself in both. Nor is it exactly error or falsehood. The point is that it presents us with the birth of Truth in the Word, and thereby brings us up against the reality of what is neither true nor false. . . . For the Truth of this revelation lies in the present Word which testifies to it in contemporary reality and which grounds it in the name of that reality. Yet in that reality, it is only the Word which bears witness to that portion of the powers of the past which has been thrust aside at each crossroads where the event has made its choice. . . . [Historical anamnesis] is not a question of reality, but of Truth, because the effect of a full Word is to reorder the past contingent events by conferring on them the necessities to come, just as they are constituted by the little liberty through which the subject makes them present."
—Jacques Lacan, 'Speech and Language in Psychoanalysis'

Whatever he said...

_________________
'Here stands the mean uncomely stone,
Tis very cheap in price!
The more it is despised by fools,
The more loved by the wise.'
(C.G. Jung, MDR, p. 253)
WebSite: http://www.paulijungunusmundus.eu


Sat Mar 25, 2006 9:24 am
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Angelika Reitze wrote:

your words are close to my experience..I remember MlLvF in her Book (Puer Aet.) " if one speaks to much about ones inner sacred experiences then one can feel EMPTY afterwards.." (oder so aehnlich..) whenever I feel that
I have to pull back my extraverted shadowside..
but let me add on a tiny active Imgination regarding cloister and laundry..
for some reason I was very much attracted to "go" there..and there SHE was..doing laundry for many other people..
rolled up my ! sleeves and told me : get ready for the hot water!
(I will try..quiet but getting ready.) warmest Angelika

_________________
'Here stands the mean uncomely stone,
Tis very cheap in price!
The more it is despised by fools,
The more loved by the wise.'
(C.G. Jung, MDR, p. 253)
WebSite: http://www.paulijungunusmundus.eu


Sat Mar 25, 2006 9:25 am
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Angelika

Angelika Reitze wrote:
your words are close to my experience..I remember MlLvF in her Book (Puer Aet.) " if one speaks to much about ones inner sacred experiences then one can feel EMPTY afterwards.." (oder so aehnlich..) whenever I feel that
I have to pull back my extraverted shadowside..
but let me add on a tiny active Imgination regarding cloister and laundry..
for some reason I was very much attracted to "go" there..and there SHE was..doing laundry for many other people..
rolled up my ! sleeves and told me : get ready for the hot water!
(I will try..quiet but getting ready.) warmest Angelika

I guess you're answering my post, but I'm not sure.

Perhaps you -- as a deeply introverted woman -- live too much in the extraversion. Most people of today are completely identical with the extraversion (since they repress the deeply introverted shadow, be it the native American, be it the Celtic). This means that you are very easily infected by this one-sided attitude and become an inferior extravert . Nothing is worse than that! I see it here in Switzerland, the country of the mountain people, where circa 70 to 80 percent of the people would naturally be introverted. But then, since 1945, we have been secretly infiltrated by this extremely extraverted attitude, which is perhaps right for (US) Americans -- but not at all for us! This is the problem we have now in "Old Europe".

This is why MLvF is in the cloister -- and why Carl Jung comes back to the Black Madonna in the cloister of Einsiedeln -- at the place of the hermits... Yes, "SHE is ... doing laundry for many other people ... rolls up your ! sleeves and tells you: get ready for the hot water!" That's very impressive!

I see her before me, twinkling with one of her eyes and then -- shouting, exploding because of the silliness and shortsightedness of people.

Remo

_________________
'Here stands the mean uncomely stone,
Tis very cheap in price!
The more it is despised by fools,
The more loved by the wise.'
(C.G. Jung, MDR, p. 253)
WebSite: http://www.paulijungunusmundus.eu


Sat Mar 25, 2006 9:26 am
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Angelika

Angelika Reitze wrote:
your words are close to my experience..I remember MlLvF in her Book (Puer Aet.) " if one speaks to much about ones inner sacred experiences then one can feel EMPTY afterwards.."

The secret is to find out what one can tell in public and what not. This is one of the most important parts of the real individuation process.

Remo

_________________
'Here stands the mean uncomely stone,
Tis very cheap in price!
The more it is despised by fools,
The more loved by the wise.'
(C.G. Jung, MDR, p. 253)
WebSite: http://www.paulijungunusmundus.eu


Sat Mar 25, 2006 9:28 am
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Angelika wrote:

with both mails..and I know what you mean "with north-american attitude"..since I live here since 1999 I believe it IS contageious/ansteckend..but I know how to watch for myself..thanks Angelika

_________________
'Here stands the mean uncomely stone,
Tis very cheap in price!
The more it is despised by fools,
The more loved by the wise.'
(C.G. Jung, MDR, p. 253)
WebSite: http://www.paulijungunusmundus.eu


Sat Mar 25, 2006 9:29 am
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Angelika wrote:

Remo, again I like your answer very much..reminds of a dream where my voice said: we pay with our bodies..

I am sure you know about Marion Woodman's Body and Soul work - don't you ?!

Did you ever read her little book: dying into bones..where she got "crucified" with her cancer illness..
(thinking about MlvFs illness just now..) till she finally recovered (as good as it gets) because she knew
"she was free to die or free to live.." this little diary about her illness is for those of us, who are willing to suffer with others..
or as Leonard Cohen says: love is the only engine of survival...warmest Angelika

(I rolled up my sleeves..)

_________________
'Here stands the mean uncomely stone,
Tis very cheap in price!
The more it is despised by fools,
The more loved by the wise.'
(C.G. Jung, MDR, p. 253)
WebSite: http://www.paulijungunusmundus.eu


Sat Mar 25, 2006 9:31 am
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Mats Winther quoted
Quote:
"She is working in the laundry at the cloister in Einsiedeln. She is given to understand that Jung would come down from heaven to the wedding of the Black Madonna. Marie-Louise is among the one hundred elect who are permitted to take part in the wedding."

She then said that the unconscious was indeed preparing a remedy for the world and a union, to be sure not one "above in the spiritual realm," but a union of above and below, a union of spirit and matter. Very early on the Virgin Mary was thought to be "the earth;" the Black Madonna was a nature goddess. And yet the union comes about in a Christian framework, which she (Marie-Louise) never could accept. But still the dream filled her with the highest happiness.


and then wrote:

When Jung comes down from heaven to marry the Black Madonna, this portrays the "death of the spirit of Jung." The Black Madonna is the Mother of Death, and Jung is now going to experience the "second death", a mythologem prevalent in primitive cultures where people perform rituals to fascilitate the second death of the deceased individual (otherwise he risks coming back to haunt them). My argument is that M-L v Franz is doing just this. She is performing such a ritual, aiming to accomplish the second death of Jung, and thus liberating her from his living spirit, making it possible for her to attain the 'mortificatio' of the Christian mystics.

In the laundry she is performing a work of a very humble Christian nature. This true cloister work could be the very act that brings about the union of upper and lower. Pauli also dreamt about withdrawing to a very humble and lonely place. Also in his dreams Christian symbols repeatedly appeared. He dreamt about the Trinity in the form of three priests, etc, but Jung didn't like that, either.

Assuming that dreams are compensatory, could this mean that von Franz and Jung have underestimated the Christian personal opus, which would be the self-denial in Christian mystical terms, that is, the annihilation of the ego, and the 'sacrificio intellectualis'? What von Franz is doing in the cloister is an act very far away from her daily nature. Thus, she is prostrating herself before God. To Jung and von Franz the 'sacrificio intellectualis' tended to take the form of, e.g., active imagination, painting, dreaming, arguing that this is the opposite of the intellectual, conscious, function. There is a level of truth in this, but how much truth? Notwithstanding its preliminary benefits, does this not lead, in the end, to yet another way of supporting the ego?

Juan de la Cruz, and other Christian mystics, argued that such imaginative work is performed at an amateur's stage. Their argument was that everything that engages libido, and is attractive to the person, i.e., something that he longs after, is a distraction from God and will only delay the 'mortificatio', i.e. the spiritual death. M-L v Franz is "happy" to have this dream, and presumably she thinks it is "beautiful", too. Does this not reflect upon an "aestethical" attitude that is furtively present in Jung's worldview, but grows to a strong gale in Hillman's form of paganism?

M-L v Franz is doing the laundry, she is not performing active imagination. She is not mixing chemicals in an alchemist's laboratory, or in a magician's fairytale castle. She is enclosed in a Christian place, and performs a very humble, repetitious, job. The dream is compensatory, I'd say. It puts her in a context where Jung said that she does not belong. It seems like the dream says, give up everything that is you, give up Jung's psychology, even. Not because it is faulty, of course, but because it is living, and full of libido.

Mats Winther

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'Here stands the mean uncomely stone,
Tis very cheap in price!
The more it is despised by fools,
The more loved by the wise.'
(C.G. Jung, MDR, p. 253)
WebSite: http://www.paulijungunusmundus.eu


Last edited by Remo Roth on Mon Jul 24, 2006 10:33 am, edited 1 time in total.



Sat Mar 25, 2006 9:33 am
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Angelika wrote:

"sacrificio intellectualis"..interesting points, Mats...I agree -
but as we all know, a symbol contains everything..
which would be (just for me..) the alch. process too !

I often ask myself WHY do I respond to a certain post and not to another one (right, Jerome ?) - so what does it touch - the cloister and laundry ?

I found myself quite attracted to the laundry room (and MlvF did a lot of laundry for other people..) and I went further on with AI ..to find out that I did NOT do the washing, I got a stick whith whom I had to separate the colours of the pieces in the cauldron - so I find a "personal meaning" in that dream..and thats a lot, isn't it?
warmest Angelika

_________________
'Here stands the mean uncomely stone,
Tis very cheap in price!
The more it is despised by fools,
The more loved by the wise.'
(C.G. Jung, MDR, p. 253)
WebSite: http://www.paulijungunusmundus.eu


Sat Mar 25, 2006 9:35 am
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Eduard


Last edited by Eduard Klarer on Wed Feb 23, 2011 10:01 am, edited 1 time in total.



Sat Mar 25, 2006 1:53 pm
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Thank you, Eduard

I know Eduard now for three years. During this time he developed from a common acupuncturist to a real healer. In his case to this process belongs among other things the integration of #2.

Eduard #1 is the prototype of what I call the Eros consciousness. #2 seems to belong to the Eros Self -- the healing instance in him. Though this other seems to be a man, he/she is the world soul.

This post answers also the question of some people how the integration of the Eros ego/Eros Self in reality happens (it needn't however always look like this).

Remo

_________________
'Here stands the mean uncomely stone,
Tis very cheap in price!
The more it is despised by fools,
The more loved by the wise.'
(C.G. Jung, MDR, p. 253)
WebSite: http://www.paulijungunusmundus.eu


Sat Mar 25, 2006 3:39 pm
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Post Re: Marie-Louise von Franz' Dream of the Return of Carl Jung
Hi All

I'd like to continue with the above dream:

Remo Roth wrote:
“In summer of 1994 [Marie-Louise von Franz] was visited by a woman, a medium, who wanted to convince her to collaborate with her; she was certain that the Christian and the Buddhist spirit were presently uniting on the other side in order to save the world. Marie-Louise promised nothing - she wanted first to see what she might dream. The following night she had this dream:

Quote:
‘She is working in the laundry at the cloister in Einsiedeln. She is given to understand that Jung would come down from heaven to the wedding of the Black Madonna. Marie-Louise is among the one hundred elect who are permitted to take part in the wedding.‘

She then said that the unconscious was indeed preparing a remedy for the world and a union, to be sure not one "above in the spiritual realm," but a union of above and below, a union of spirit and matter. Very early on the Virgin Mary was thought to be "the earth;" the Black Madonna was a nature goddess. And yet the union comes about in a Christian framework, which she (Mary-Louise) never could accept. But still the dream filled her with the highest happiness.”


I never understood what Carl Jung's reincarnation could mean. Today I found however a very early dream of Feb 9, 1989, in which some further informations concerning his reincarnation could be presented. Further, the dream could help some people who experience similar events as described in the dream (e.g., UFO abduction and OOBE experiencers):


Dream of the mirrored reincarnation of Carl Jung, of his message of Capricorn's and of Aries' eon, which causes me to hover:

I am with Marie-Louise von Franz and some of her students. She tells me with a roguish smile that she begins now to read Carl Jung's Opus 10.

Quote:
Association of today:
#10 always reminds me of the so-called denarius, the end product of the opus in the Rosarium philosophorum, of which I wrote in The Holy Wedding.


It is a parapsychological/paraphysical book, which Carl Jung has dictated out of the Beyond.

Quote:
Association of today:
In The Return of the World Soul I deal with an extension of Carl Jung's depth psychology on the one hand and physics on the other to a "paranormal physics," as Wolfgang Pauli has demanded. It describes the psychophysical reality (Pauli) or unus mundus (Jung), of which the Beyond is a part of, and the possible incarnations out of it, i.e. UFO phenomena, Pauli effect, BCI/SST.


Marie-Louise opens this book of Jung, and I realize that inside it there are mirror images of him. In the dream I know that Carl Jung with the help of these mirror images reincarnates out of the Beyond into our world.

Quote:
Association of today:
What I call the twin process, the transformation of objective energy on the one hand, and physical energy on the other into "matter-psyche," the "energy of the Beyond," and their re-transformation into objective psychic energy with increased order respectively physical energy/matter with increased order, i.e., an incarnation of spirit/mind with higher order (new insights, mostly as an effect of synchronicities) respectively of matter/energy of higher order (UFOs, results of BCI/SST) corresponds to such a mirroring process. With the help of these definitions we could say that Carl Jung belongs now to the "realm" of matter-psyche, and his incarnation corresponds to the second of the above twin process, the incarnation or reincarnation.


As an effect of the sight of these mirror images of Carl Jung [It is a multiple reincarnation, which reminds us at the multiplicatio of the Hermetic coniunctio; reincarnation in the many?] I begin to lift off of the floor and to hover in a vertical position. In contrast to earlier dreams (of 1981) I can however control my hovering.

Quote:
Association and amplification (of 1989):
During this time I had several dreams about hovering. In one of them I am hovering at the Café Odeon in Zurich.

Addition of today, Feb 11, 2008: Last year I wrote about the strange Pauli effect at the Café Odeon: He pondered about his feeling problems, looked up and in this moment a red car (red = emotions!) explodes. I realized that one can only avoid such paranormal effects if one enters consciously what I call the Eros ego and begins Body-Centered Imagination.

In 1989 I amplified with a statement of Jung, in which he says that anti-gravity has to do with the objective psyche, since it is the only manifestation, which does not obey to gravity. Today, I would add that it is not Jung's objective psychic energy (what I call inner spirit-psyche), but what I call matter-psyche, the magic/paranormal energy of the psychophysical reality/unus mundus/Beyond.

Further, in Psyche und Materie, p. 260-261 (German ed.) Marie-Louise von Franz -- and here we are back to her and her dream -- in quoting Jung, CW 8, § 945 and Letters, Vol. 1, p. 76-77, tells us that hovering belongs to a bodily sensation perceived with the help of the sympathetic nervous system [the vegetative nervous system in my terminology]

Here we enter the center of my present research: The connection of UFO abduction, OOBE on the one hand and BCI/SST on the other (see below)
.

Then I touch again the ground and see a man approaching me with two gifts of Carl Jung: On the one hand Bonbons [= candies; French "bon" means however also good.], on the other a message from him, which to me still today is almost incredible and unbelievable: "A visit and a thank out of the realm (eon) of Capricorn and of Aries."

Quote:
Association:
Bon, bon = Jung seems to tell me that the results of my research are ok.

Amplifikation: The eon of Aries is followed by the eon of Pisces; Pisces is followed by Aquarius, and the latter by Capricorn. Thus, Carl Jung seems to talk about a realm of more or less 8.000 years. It seems that in this realm something is happening which helps it or its "inhabitants."


End of the dream.

[To be continued]

Remo

_________________
'Here stands the mean uncomely stone,
Tis very cheap in price!
The more it is despised by fools,
The more loved by the wise.'
(C.G. Jung, MDR, p. 253)
WebSite: http://www.paulijungunusmundus.eu


Last edited by Remo Roth on Mon Feb 11, 2008 7:50 pm, edited 1 time in total.



Mon Feb 11, 2008 11:37 am
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Post Re: Marie-Louise von Franz' Dream of the Return of Carl Jung
Remo Roth wrote:
Hi All

Remo


Remo, I see I was posting and editing the same post while you were posting. Take a look over on the Ann and Suzanne blog. I have to get going and have some more sleep now. See you later. Suzanne

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Mon Feb 11, 2008 11:44 am
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Post Re: Marie-Louise von Franz' Dream of the Return of Carl Jung
Suzanne wrote:
Remo Roth wrote:
Hi All

Remo


Remo, I see I was posting and editing the same post while you were posting. Take a look over on the Ann and Suzanne blog. I have to get going and have some more sleep now. See you later. Suzanne


This is a far more solemn hello, Remo. That was quite a cat nap - the joke is over! A jolly good time is followed by about five ominous images of impending destruction - you have to picture the fresco - I don't have to check on the year right now - the one showing strange flying objects in the sky at a time none had been invented yet on the Earth. He said through the use of images and recollections that I should let you know who he was, I can tell (show) you his name, and show you what he was most famous for, and that increasingly now I will come to understand what the great work, to be performed in secret that he was meant to accomplish during his lifetime, means. What he is outwardly known for was in a sense a pleasant distraction, so that he did not have to stay focused on the other task all the time. You will catch onto this quick when you see what I send to you in a private message and E-mail too.

Suzanne

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Mon Feb 11, 2008 1:55 pm
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Continuation:

I had another very strange dream on August 8, 1985, in which Carl Jung comes back as a sort of apparition of the Holy Mary (he appears in a halo), however also in some sort of UFO. It happens in a wood = vegetative nervous system. My association was the place of the Swiss Saint Nicholas von Flue (with whom I dealt intensely since puberty). Also here the effect of this apparition is a levitation; and also here I can control it consciously.

What is different here is that with the help of my hands I can also abolish the gravity of things, about what children are very surprised and amazed.

The common context of both dreams is the fact that before both I was dealing with so-called K[sup]0 physics (K zero physics). One needn't exactly understand what this is. The only important aspect is that such elementary particles (the neutral Kaons) violate as well a physical symmetry principle as does the invention of Pauli, the neutrino.

Because of this violation of the symmetry principle physicists began to postulate a fifth elementary force, besides the strong force, the weak force (radioactivity), the electromagnetic force and gravity. Theoretical considerations tell them that this must be some sort of anti-gravity. Thus, we are back to the topic of hovering in both dreams.

Though it was already postulated in 1976, physicists never found such a force with the help of experiments (= empirically) [However, today they theorize about the so-called cosmological constant/quintessence (!!!), which is such an anti-gravitational force].

Thus, the looked-for force it is perhaps a force (or energy) which belongs to the psychophysical level, and corresponds to what I call the matter-psyche, a paranormal/magic energy belonging to the unus mundus/Beyond, as described above. Also here the apparition of Jung (here together with the Holy Mary = paranormal healing) could therefore symbolize the above mentioned second transformation of the twin process:

{Matter-psyche with potentially increased order -> spirit-psyche with incarnated increased order}

In colloquial language this would mean the following: "Carl Jung" incarnates on the one hand as the "multiplication" of the principle of synchronicity, which means that many more people begin to experience synchronicities with the help of which they can incarnate new knowledge in the "realm" of the mind/spirit.

However, on the material level, Jung's incarnation -- together with the marriage with the Holy Mary, respectively in the halo of Mary above -- this could mean that the reincarnation of “Carl Jung” leads to magic phenomena which incarnate physical energy/matter with increased order (I talk also of increased negentropy).

My experience as a dream interpreter and healer during the last 30+ years has however shown that in the case of synchronicity as well as in the case of "potential material incarnation" (e.g., UFOs and OOBE) unconsciousness concerning these paranormal phenomena causes them to incarnate in a destructive way. Thus, the most important task and challenge of people who experience such phenomena is to learn first to experience them consciously and second to understand them.

It is a very funny fact that another theorist (Adair) also tried to explain the asymmetry of the neutral Kaon as another fifth force, a super-weak force, which should then be responsible for the creation of our universe !!! [Since it leads exactly to the unbalance between matter and antimatter shortly after the big bang, which led to the fact that our universe is created of matter (antimatter exists only in the accelerators and colliders of CERN, etc.).]

Thus, we have the following phenomena together: Jung’s reincarnation, UFO/Alien experiences and OOBE, a fifth force of anti-gravity (cosmological constant, which is also called the energy of the vacuum, free energy, etc.), and a “creation and incarnation force” or energy.

It seems that the latter phenomena, creation and incarnation into our world of the mind/spirit on the one hand and into matter on the other, connected to antigravity and symbolized in UFOs/OOBE are represented in my dreams as Jung’s reincarnation and marriage with the Holy Mary – however in her “black form,” i.e. as healing energy.

All this is however only constructive and connected to increased order (cure and health of the individual and of the world/universe), if as many people as possible become conscious of these constellated processes.

A little complicated, I agree. But for the moment I cannot express all this in an easier way.

Remo

_________________
'Here stands the mean uncomely stone,
Tis very cheap in price!
The more it is despised by fools,
The more loved by the wise.'
(C.G. Jung, MDR, p. 253)
WebSite: http://www.paulijungunusmundus.eu


Last edited by Remo Roth on Mon Feb 11, 2008 7:43 pm, edited 1 time in total.



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Post REMO - check your E-mail for a message!
REMO - CHECK YOUR E-MAIL FOR A MESSAGE!

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Mon Feb 11, 2008 3:54 pm
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Post Reincarnation, Aliens and Carl Gustav Jung
Continuation 2:

Let us now speculate a little. As we have seen, the cosmological constant is an anti-gravitational force. As much as I remember, in every point of the universe it has the same value. For the moment we do not yet "sensate" this anti-gravitational force, since it is still too small. However, what would happen if it begins to increase? Exactly the possibility of hovering.

Now, in UFO abduction such hovering is sensed by the victims, since in any case they always tell us that the are "lifted up" into an UFO in the sky. Are they thus influenced by a force, which belongs, as I postulated above, to a creation and incarnation process; more exactly: to the incarnation of the (or some specific) deceased?

Wolfgang Pauli was convinced that the paranormal Pauli effect belonged to such an incarnation of "revenants." He further thought that such a reincarnation must have something to do with the repression of the world soul during the 17th century (when math entered the philosophy of nature). [The world soul is the ruler of the unus mundus/Beyond.]

Thus, we have also to ask ourselves if the so-called aliens are not re-incarnations of deceased people in the Beyond; the latter not regarded as a parallel universe, but as higher dimensions behind space-time. "My" Carl Jung could therefore be such an alien. However, since I am more conscious about all these phenomena, he can re-incarnate in the person of C.G., and not as a grey or some horrible other mixture of an animal and a human being.

Speculative thoughts, of which I however think that Wolfgang Pauli, Carl Jung and Marie-Louise von Franz had been very interested to hear of.

Remo

_________________
'Here stands the mean uncomely stone,
Tis very cheap in price!
The more it is despised by fools,
The more loved by the wise.'
(C.G. Jung, MDR, p. 253)
WebSite: http://www.paulijungunusmundus.eu


Mon Feb 11, 2008 6:54 pm
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Post Re: Reincarnation, Aliens and Carl Gustav Jung
Remo Roth wrote:
Continuation 2:

Let us now speculate a little. As we have seen, the cosmological constant is an anti-gravitational force. As much as I remember, in every point of the universe it has the same value. For the moment we do not yet "sensate" this anti-gravitational force, since it is still too small. However, what would happen if it begins to increase? Exactly the possibility of hovering.

Now, in UFO abduction such hovering is sensed by the victims, since in any case they always tell us that the are "lifted up" into an UFO in the sky. Are they thus influenced by a force, which belongs, as I postulated above, to a creation and incarnation process; more exactly: to the incarnation of the (or some specific) deceased?

Wolfgang Pauli was convinced that the paranormal Pauli effect belonged to such an incarnation of "revenants." He further thought that such a reincarnation must have something to do with the repression of the world soul during the 17th century (when math entered the philosophy of nature). [The world soul is the ruler of the unus mundus/Beyond.]

Thus, we have also to ask ourselves if the so-called aliens are not re-incarnations of deceased people in the Beyond; the latter not regarded as a parallel universe, but as higher dimensions behind space-time. "My" Carl Jung could therefore be such an alien. However, since I am more conscious about all these phenomena, he can re-incarnate in the person of C.G., and not as a grey or some horrible other mixture of an animal and a human being.

Speculative thoughts, of which I however think that Wolfgang Pauli, Carl Jung and Marie-Louise von Franz had been very interested to hear of.

Remo


Let's see if I can get this done fast enough so it will provide an illustration of what you trying to say.

"You Raise Me Up"

When I am down and, oh my soul, so weary;
When troubles come and my heart burdened be;
Then, I am still and wait here in the silence,
Until you come and sit awhile with me.

You raise me up, so I can stand on mountains;
You raise me up, to walk on stormy seas;
I am strong, when I am on your shoulders;
You raise me up... To more than I can be.

You raise me up, so I can stand on mountains;
You raise me up, to walk on stormy seas;
I am strong, when I am on your shoulders;
You raise me up... To more than I can be.

You raise me up, so I can stand on mountains;
You raise me up, to walk on stormy seas;
I am strong, when I am on your shoulders;
You raise me up... To more than I can be.

You raise me up, so I can stand on mountains;
You raise me up, to walk on stormy seas;
I am strong, when I am on your shoulders;
You raise me up... To more than I can be.

You raise me up... To more than I can be.

I can't embed the video now, I don't have time. You go there and watch it. It is all about giving an impression of the pitiful human wars and strife ending in peace with people hugging one another, and the final scene is an image of Our Lady. Nice meaningful coincidence that I could find such a match so quickly.
This is a process of the great hidden work that needs to be done.

Bye, I really am out the door this time to do ordinary things for the rest of the day.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TlXeZeXEd_0 Forget that one, I treid to do it too fast rather than in wu wei - or whatever it's called - and I gave the wrong link.

This is the one with the human strife images:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TlXeZeXEd_0 - wait a minute, it's the same, this computer is going crazy, first it's there and then it's not there, or something happened with the connection stream. Mother Mary is at the end here.

2:04 - really out the door now.

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"Only if a man dares to entrust himself again to the depth of his origin can he reach the height for which he was destined." Karlfried Graf Durckheim


Mon Feb 11, 2008 7:23 pm
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Post Recommending a book
When I read the above posts of today's date I pulled from my shelf William A Tiller's Science and Human Transformation - Subtle Energies, Intentionality, and Consciousness. Prof emeritus in material sciences at Stanford.

http://www.tillerfoundation.com/

Check his web site. He has a new book which may be even more to the point.

ann


Tue Feb 12, 2008 1:40 am
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Post Re: Recommending a book
murraycreek wrote:
When I read the above posts of today's date I pulled from my shelf William A Tiller's Science and Human Transformation - Subtle Energies, Intentionality, and Consciousness. Prof emeritus in material sciences at Stanford.

http://www.tillerfoundation.com/

Check his web site. He has a new book which may be even more to the point.

ann


Ann, you need to look in the private messages here at the forum. Just click at the top where it usually says, you have no new messages. Maybe one will appear, and maybe it will not.

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"Only if a man dares to entrust himself again to the depth of his origin can he reach the height for which he was destined." Karlfried Graf Durckheim


Tue Feb 12, 2008 3:56 pm
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Post How do we know that God even exists?
It's another Old Hymn that goes like this, but I cannot get all the words right somehow:

How do we know that God even knows we exist?

How do we know he hears us when we call?

We have only to enter into the secret chamber within our own hearts and pray,

and only then and only if we really really listen...

(What are the rest of the words...)

Then we will hear a faint sound whispering - merely - or seemingly only - a rustle, in reply,

(What are the rest of the words...)

and God will say, and you will -

hear a faint whisper in reply,

and know that God is saying, I have always loved you...

It is from some Bible verse... what are the rest of the words... Silence.

The storm of destruction that was coming may have passed - out of mercy for Mankind.

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"Only if a man dares to entrust himself again to the depth of his origin can he reach the height for which he was destined." Karlfried Graf Durckheim


Tue Feb 12, 2008 6:31 pm
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Post The Chernobyl UFO and the subtle body
All

I learned from Wolfgang Pauli that the Pythagoreens brought reincarnation together with sphere music -- the latter of course based on the oscillation symbolism, the frequency of tones. I had myself many experiences of hearing incredibly beautiful music in dreams and in the state of the Eros ego. They were always connected to deep bliss.

During Chernobyl I was forced to enter some BCIs/SSTs since I was in a big horror. Some time later I heard that we in Europe had been in extremely great danger that the whole continent could be exterminated. Only a UFO apparition helped us out: The UFO diminished the radiation to a fourth and prevented like this a horrible nuclear blast that had destroyed Europe!

Here is a photomontage of Gregory Sova:

Image

Report see in
http://www.ufoevidence.org/documents/doc1005.htm

In this BCI/SST about my hurting heart, which was at the same time the vagina of a woman, drops of blood began to drop down. I was reminded of the stalactites at the top of caves, of which drops of water drop down and finally create the stalagmites on the bottom. My spontaneous association to this scene was first the transformation of physical matter into what today I call the matter-psyche, the energy of the unus mundus/Beyond, and then a re-transformation into physical matter/energy, however with increased order (negentropy). Thus, exactly the creation and incarnation process described above; the creation of the subtle body or the diamond body.
Image

During the same imagination also sphere music from out of the Beyond emerged, which is a further hint to the fact that an incarnation process into our physical world is meant.

The drops also created in me the fantasy of the creation of linear time: These stalactites/stalagmites are in some way a natural clock, since the dropping down is very regular. Thus, it seems that they also symbolize the incarnation of "new time." Since the drops create the stalagmites, together with the latter they also symbolize something like a new physical incarnation, perhaps new physical life, however with increased order. [Here the reincarnation motif comes back.] Since the result of the second of the twin process is matter with higher order, I identify it with an increased bodily order, i.e., with the subtle body.

Thus, in my imagination during the Chernobyl catastrophe the motifs of reincarnation, sphere music, and the creation of "new linear time" (or more exactly new linear space-time) are contained. This seems to describe an incredibly deep mystery.

Thus, the result: When doing BCI/SST during a radioactive catastrophe it could perhaps be that new life of higher order (or negentropy), an increased subtle body, is incarnated.

This would further be the interpretation of the reincarnation of Carl Jung, and of his marriage with the Black Madonna in Einsiedeln [the coniunctio] with the goal of the creation of the infans solaris/red tincture (the blood above)/quintessence = the subtle body (or an increased order of it).

Remo

_________________
'Here stands the mean uncomely stone,
Tis very cheap in price!
The more it is despised by fools,
The more loved by the wise.'
(C.G. Jung, MDR, p. 253)
WebSite: http://www.paulijungunusmundus.eu


Last edited by Remo Roth on Mon Oct 08, 2012 6:05 am, edited 1 time in total.



Wed Feb 13, 2008 10:03 am
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Post Re: Marie-Louise von Franz' Dream of the Return of Carl Jung
MLVF's dream

“In summer of 1994 [Marie-Louise von Franz] was visited by a woman, a medium, who wanted to convince her to collaborate with her; she was certain that the Christian and the Buddhist spirit were presently uniting on the other side in order to save the world. Marie-Louise promised nothing - she wanted first to see what she might dream. The following night she had this dream:
‘She is working in the laundry at the cloister in Einsiedeln. She is given to understand that Jung would come down from heaven to the wedding of the Black Madonna. Marie-Louise is among the one hundred elect who are permitted to take part in the wedding.‘
She then said that the unconscious was indeed preparing a remedy for the world and a union, to be sure not one "above in the spiritual realm," but a union of above and below, a union of spirit and matter. Very early on the Virgin Mary was thought to be "the earth;" the Black Madonna was a nature goddess. And yet the union comes about in a Christian framework, which she (Mary-Louise) never could accept. But still the dream filled her with the highest happiness.”


Remo's dream

Dream of the mirrored reincarnation of Carl Jung, of his message of Capricorn's and of Aries' eon, which causes me to hover
I am with Marie-Louise von Franz and some of her students. She tells me with a roguish smile that she begins now to read Carl Jung's Opus 10.It is a parapsychological/paraphysical book, which Carl Jung has dictated out of the Beyond.
Marie-Louise opens this book of Jung, and I realize that inside it there are mirror images of him. In the dream I know that Carl Jung with the help of these mirror images reincarnates out of the Beyond into our world.
As an effect of the sight of these mirror images of Carl Jung [It is a multiple reincarnation, which reminds us at the multiplicatio of the Hermetic coniunctio; reincarnation in the many?] I begin to lift off of the floor and to hover in a vertical position. In contrast to earlier dreams (of 1981) I can however control my hoveringThen I touch again the ground and see a man approaching me with two gifts of Carl Jung: On the one hand Bonbons [= candies; French "bon" means however also good.], on the other a message from him, which to me still today is almost incredible and unbelievable: "A visit and a thank out of the realm (eon) of Capricorn and of Aries."

I spoke on this forum a dream of Jung's legacy: a blue medal and a travel diary.

hypothesis:
blue medal = union with the black madonna
travel diary = Carl Jung's Opus 10

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There are those that look at things the way they are, and ask why? I dream of things that never were, and ask why not? ( Robert Kennedy quoting George Bernard Shaw )


Sun Oct 07, 2012 10:32 pm
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